TC4 Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewPolitics.asp?Page=\Politics\archive\200409\POL20040909d.html "60 Minutes" Documents on Bush Might Be Fake By Robert B. Bluey CNSNews.com Staff Writer September 09, 2004 (CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts. Three independent typography experts told CNSNews.com they were suspicious of the documents from 1972 and 1973 because they were typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program. The "60 Minutes" segment included an interview with former Texas lieutenant governor Ben Barnes, who criticized Bush's service. The news program also produced a series of memos that claim Bush refused to follow an order to undertake a medical examination. The documents came from the "personal office file" of Bush's former squadron commander Jerry B. Killian, according to Kelli Edwards, a spokeswoman for "60 Minutes," who was quoted in Thursday's Washington Post. Edwards declined to tell the Post how the news program obtained the documents. But the experts interviewed by CNSNews.com homed in on several aspects of a May 4, 1972, memo, which was part of the "60 Minutes" segment and was posted on the CBS News website Thursday. "It was highly out of the ordinary for an organization, even the Air Force, to have proportional-spaced fonts for someone to work with," said Allan Haley, director of words and letters at Agfa Monotype in Wilmington, Mass. "I'm suspect in that I did work for the U.S. Army as late as the late 1980s and early 1990s and the Army was still using [fixed-pitch typeface] Courier." The typography experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font used in the documents. They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high-end typewriter or word processor in the early 1970s. But the use of the superscript "th" in one document - "111th F.I.S" - gave each expert pause. They said that is an automatic feature found in current versions of Microsoft Word, and it's not something that was even possible more than 30 years ago. "That would not be possible on a typewriter or even a word processor at that time," said John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com. "It is a very surprising thing to see a letter with that date [May 4, 1972] on it," and featuring such typography, Collins added. "There's no question that that is surprising. Does that force you to conclude that it's a fake? No. But it certainly raises the eyebrows." Fred Showker, who teaches typography and introduction to digital graphics at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Va., questioned the documents' letterhead. "Let's assume for a minute that it's authentic," Showker said. "But would they not have used some form of letterhead? Or has this letterhead been intentionally cut off? Notice how close to the top of the page it is." He also pointed to the signature of Killian, the purported author of the May 4, 1972, memo ordering Bush, who was at the time a first lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard, to obtain a physical exam. "Do you think he would have stopped that 'K' nice and cleanly, right there before it ran into the typewriter 'Jerry," Showker asked. "You can't stop a ballpoint pen with a nice square ending like that ... The end of that 'K' should be round ... it looks like you took a pair of snips and cut it off so you could see the 'Jerry.'" The experts also raised questions about the military's typewriter technology three decades ago. Collins said word processors that could produce proportional-sized fonts cost upwards of $20,000 at the time. "I'm not real sure that you would have that kind of sophistication in the office of a flight inspector in the United States government," Showker said. "The only thing it could be, possibly, is an IBM golf ball typewriter, which came out around the early to middle 1970s," Haley said. "Those did have proportional fonts on them. But they weren't widely used." But Haley added that the use of the superscript "th" cast doubt on the use of any typewriter. "There weren't any typewriters that did that," Haley said. "That looks like it might be a function of something like Microsoft Word, which does that automatically." According to an article on the CBS News website, the news program "consulted a handwriting analyst and document expert who believes the material is authentic." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
December90 Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 I guess it is harder to forge something than people realize. A good forgery but too many problems to be "real" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cskin Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 With Kerry slipping in the polls... I'm not suprised by any "mystery" documents that suddenly appear in people's personal file cabinets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEF Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Too funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinInsite Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Wow instead of heading to CNN, ABC or Fox the typography expert decided to present their evidence to CNSnews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Just curious -- has Bush been able to produce one person who can prove that he wasn't AWOL? Someone that served with him and has proof? Photos, something? I seem to remember someone (the Doonesbury guy, I think) offering anyone who could provide such proof ten thousand dollars. Personally, I don't give a $hit, but you have to admit that's it kinda strange that all sorts of people aren't stepping forward and saying yes, he served with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEF Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Originally posted by SkinInsite Wow instead of heading to CNN, ABC or Fox the typography expert decided to present their evidence to CNSnews. And it's pretty amazing that they hadn't heard of an IBM Selectric. You know, with them being all experty and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sick Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 I prefer to get my news from mbc or adc news... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sick Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Originally posted by LC80 And it's pretty amazing that they hadn't heard of an IBM Selectric. You know, with them being all experty and all. IBM's website says that typewriters capable of proportional type have been available since 1941. http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/year_1941.html "IBM announces the Electromatic Model 04 electric typewriter, featuring the revolutionary concept of proportional spacing. By assigning varied rather than uniform spacing to different sized characters, the Type 4 recreated the appearance of a printed page, an effect that was further enhanced by a typewriter ribbon innovation that produced clearer, sharper words on the page. The proportional spacing feature became a staple of the IBM Executive series typewriters." ------- Nice try, Republicans!! You'll have to find another type of spin to discredit this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 In 1994 I upgraded 650 machines in the Department of the Army Hoffman building to 486's... We had to put the games in there to teach them to use the mouse... The military personnel are normally a couple of years behind technology. The 80k workstations and 5k servers for the Social Security Administration were Pentium 100's... by the time we finished in 1999 they were so outdated they couldnt run the programs and had to be upgraded.. nice lil profit for Unisys..... .. oops: That would not be possible on a typewriter or even a word processor at that time," said John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Originally posted by LC80 And it's pretty amazing that they hadn't heard of an IBM Selectric. You know, with them being all experty and all. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Originally posted by Jackson's Ward I prefer to get my news from mbc or adc news... :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Did Bush do his service: I say NO personally myself... Did Kerry do his service: I say NO personally myself... Does something from 35 years ago really matter right now... Not really.. Are YOU (dig deep now) the same person you were 20 years ago? Now, lets go over the last 6-7 years... please, in the debates.... I think both lied about their service.. as a vet i take one more personally than the other due to it being directed back at the corps and then when a group challenges it he says not your group all the rest.... (yes Kerry).. sorry Im biased... I think Bush has shown in the last 4 years that he's wiped the slate clean and has done a Kick ass job on keeping us safe and hunting down all opponents.. (not just alqaeda but the countries that harbor and sponsor also) Iraq was at the wrong time but i"ll back the right reasons... genecide blah blah blah *SAME goes for the SUDAN*... I'd back that for terrorist and genocide with every fiber of my being also.... ok soap box done.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phishhead Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Wow, a right wing news site (a mediocre one at that) makes assertions that are most assuredly false? Shocking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 To those ready to dispel the possibility these are forgeries so quickly, I would let this play out. - Yes it can be established that the proportional font typewriters were available and may have even been bought by the government but I would suspect you would be hard pressed to find one make its way down to the National Guard level. Think mass purchases of the cheapest typewriter and that is probably what the National Guard had rather than something fancy. The typewriters we had when I got in the Navy weren't event proportional font and that was in 1991. - The use of the New Times Roman font (or whatever it is but it does look a lot like New Times Roman to me) is also troubling. 12/10 pt courier new is STILL the official font of the Department of the Navy (USN & USMC) and I suspect for other DOD branches as well. I don't know for sure but I would bet it has been that way for quite a long time. When I look at those documents that fact alone makes me think they are not real. They just don't look like the official documents I am used to seeing because the font is wrong. It would be great to get a copy of and Air Force correspondence manual from that era to see what the regulations were. Admittedly I have nothing conclusive here, but I just think something is not quite right here with these memos and we should be guarded in our judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummagumma Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/Vote2004/bush_documents_040909-1.html Sorry leftist...this story is for real. ABC picked it up and ran. Drudge reports this: http://www.drudgereport.com/cbsd.htm http://www.drudgereport.com/cbsd1.htm I'm sure you'll just blame Karl Rove. Personally, I think it's Carville and Bagala setting things up for Hillary. Sorry Jackson's Ward - You ignored ALL the other damning evidence. I don't think Microsoft existed back in 1973...lol. The best BLOGS: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/007760.php http://www.hughhewitt.com/#postid874 But remember - There is no leftwing counterforce to FoxNews...Yeah, sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummagumma Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 And remember folks...this is the second instance of Old Media buying into forgories in a "rush up" to discredit President Bush. The 1st time being the forge memo that was supposed to discredit Bush's use of British intelligence concerning Hussein's attempt to get 'yellow cake' from Niger. Kerry better start talking issues or this will be a landslide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walking Deadman Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 It's a bad day for the CBS news department. First they announce that have documents that can hurt Bush- which now appear to be frauds- does Rather and the 60 minutes crew not want Bush to be elected? Hmmmmmm........ Then CBSsportsline falsely reports that Clinton Portis is out for 8-12 weeks..... Shame on You CBS! Don't you have people to verify rumors and check your facts. A 6th grader has to do that with their book reports. Can't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 I just saw an ABC report on TV about this. Similar stuff. ABC contacted several "experts" who doubt the authenticity, and also interviewed Killian's widow, who referred to the documents as "phony". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 And the washington post now... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9967-2004Sep9.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 If Bush (**edit for the rest of y'as-- OR ANYONE ELSE--) actually faked the typesets in his documents, do you think these forgers would use Microsoft Word? Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 ROFL So for the cats who posted above with their typical contributions, what now? It's hilarious because the widow and son of the guy said he didn't take notes like this, no one EVER approached them for them, and that this man liked the young GW Bush. Now the man is conveniently dead, perhaps picked precisely because he could not answer charges. Interestingly, the ex-sister-in-law that Kitty Kelly attributes the cocaine in Camp David story has come out against the book and called it an outright falsehood. Hmm. Sounds like a lot of scum are willing to do anything to discredit Bush, as opposed to just beating him on the issues like they claim(which might not be THAT hard, had they gone with that from the beginning.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Originally posted by Stu To those ready to dispel the possibility these are forgeries so quickly, I would let this play out. - Yes it can be established that the proportional font typewriters were available and may have even been bought by the government but I would suspect you would be hard pressed to find one make its way down to the National Guard level. Think mass purchases of the cheapest typewriter and that is probably what the National Guard had rather than something fancy. The typewriters we had when I got in the Navy weren't event proportional font and that was in 1991. - The use of the New Times Roman font (or whatever it is but it does look a lot like New Times Roman to me) is also troubling. 12/10 pt courier new is STILL the official font of the Department of the Navy (USN & USMC) and I suspect for other DOD branches as well. I don't know for sure but I would bet it has been that way for quite a long time. When I look at those documents that fact alone makes me think they are not real. They just don't look like the official documents I am used to seeing because the font is wrong. It would be great to get a copy of and Air Force correspondence manual from that era to see what the regulations were. Admittedly I have nothing conclusive here, but I just think something is not quite right here with these memos and we should be guarded in our judgement. How is the font wrong? The link on the site is a pdf file containing an image. There is no way you can match it up perfecly to compare with fonts on your computer, let alone if you had the same typewriter that churned that document out. That's not to say that these experts had a copy of the original document, but judging from the pdf file, it doesn't look so far off.... Also, the same font would be different from typewriter to typewriter. The PC is the first machine in history to have universal fonts that appear the same way on seperate machines. So even if all DOD branches used the same font, there is no way possible that the leading and kerning would be exactly the same on every single document to come out of the seperate offices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Originally posted by IAMBG How is the font wrong? The link on the site is a pdf file containing an image. There is no way you can match it up perfecly to compare with fonts on your computer, let alone if you had the same typewriter that churned that document out. That's not to say that these experts had a copy of the original document, but judging from the pdf file, it doesn't look so far off.... Also, the same font would be different from typewriter to typewriter. The PC is the first machine in history to have universal fonts that appear the same way on seperate machines. So even if all DOD branches used the same font, there is no way possible that the leading and kerning would be exactly the same on every single document to come out of the seperate offices. Umm... try the plethora of articles quoting typographic experts who have all said the font is Times Roman? Along with half a dozen other inconsistencies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 here is the drudge link http://www.drudgereport.com/cbsd.htm CBSNEWS LAUNCHES INTERNAL INVESTIGATION AFTER SUSPICIOUS BUSH DOCS AIRED **Exclusive** CBS NEWS executives have launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush's National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned. "The reputation and integrity of the entire news division is at stake, if we are in error, it will be corrected," a top CBS source explained late Thursday. The source, who asked not to be named, described CBSNEWS anchor and 60 MINUTES correspondent Dan Rather as being privately "shell-shocked" by the increasingly likelihood that the documents in question were fraudulent. Rather, who anchored the segment presenting new information on the president's military service, will personally correct the record on-air, if need be, the source explained from New York. MORE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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