Phat Hog Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 Originally posted by masterc74 hello, i am a mormon. some of the things that have been presented in this thread are false. i know that people are going to be uneasy with things that they do not understand. i will not even try to go into most of the things that are not true. i only want to point out one thing. more than one religon has had its problem with individuals that do bad things. take the time to find out if it is the individual or the religon that you have a problem with. educate yourself and then make an informed decision. c Very nice... so what was stated that was false... at least present your side of the issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 Originally posted by Yusuf06 Mormonism is one of the few faiths that I have little or no respect for. Before you get your panties all in a bunch, please let me explain. I do my best to respect people of other faiths as well as the religions themselves. Therefore, while I may not subscribe to your faith, I can discuss and appreciate it's place in the greater world of religious thought. However, I draw the line at blatant falsehood which has been discredited by the Tanners and many others. Essentially, they have proven that Mormonism is nothing more than the fantasies of Joseph Smith. The Mormon church has sued them for libel/slander several times and lost each time when the Tanners research proved that what they said was factual. However, the fact that the doctrine has been proven false over and over isn't the only reason for my harsh opinion of it. Were it a largely false yet harmless doctrine I wouldn't have a problem with it. However, the racism evident in their doctrine as well as their trampling of the rights of innocent children makes it an open and shut case for me. I'm sure Mormonism brings spiritual comfort to many and is a large part of their lives. However, I'm sure the same could be said for the brand of Islam of the Al-Qaeda folks as well. Neither one is acceptable in my opinion. Yusuf06, what is the difference in believing in one religon or another? Some people think there is nothing wrong with spending at least one hour a week worshiping a dead guy who supposedly came back to life. Then, participating in a canabalistic ritual and chanting at the climax. Some places will have sexual connotations which are deeply hidden in symbolism, which end up manifesting themselves into homosexual rape. Personally I could care less who's worshiping "their" guy, but you should "respect" them, no matter how outlandish they sound. I'm an agnostic/athesist, because I believe in science. Although I'd love to believe that I'd live for ever, I don't, I think it's the same thing as going to sleep. I think death is the synapses firing in your brain and the white light people see is their brain ceasing to function. I actually have a thought that evolution's ultimate goal is longevity, and we are close to it. IF we can find a way to connect the human bio-electrical functions and memory to a circuit, we will have found god and we will live for ever, thus I believe that Science is the ultimate religon. It's ironic that ALL religons are against science, and have been since day one. There is always a way to cast out science and remove it from a population because of hearsy. Because of religon, we are still living off of dead things and have yet failed to discover the true nature of science. We still don't know how small the basic forms of being are. There are theories out there (ie. string), but then what are they made of? Is this the ultimate religon of them all? And they say pot is bad for you Actually, Rastafarians use pot in their "religous rituals" so I guess maybe all religons aren't bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeSkin Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 I'm personally very surprised at the growth of the Mormon church. They hold some very bizarre and unfounded beliefs, but they manage to spin their religion so it's acceptable in mainstream society with some very slick marketing. I myself am a devout Christian (Lutheran to be exact) and I've always been interested in mormonism because usually groups with such far-fetched philosophies are relegated to cult status, whereas Mormoms practically own an entire state by themselves. There's a point where the core tenents of mormonism are so glossed over to make it acceptable and even legal that it's not mormonism anymore. It's my personal belief that many Mormons can be deceptive when describing their beliefs in order to indoctrinate the listener into the faith. A number of evils have come out of mormonism, much like other religions, but those other religions don't hold those evils as core beliefs. Even the most conservative catholic would not condone atrocities such as polygamy and spousal abuse, whereas the most conservative mormon most definitely would. I don't believe mormons should be wiped from the face of the Earth, but I do believe they should be revealed for what they truly are, as opposed to this slick mainstream version that has emerged in the past 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest masterc74 Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 you asked me to present some of the things mentioned or linked to from this thread that i have never come across in my time as a member of the mormon church. here are a few. "Every kid in her family was severly abused both physically and sexually. This was supported by the Mormon elders."(not disp the abuse,just that the elders support this) "Mormons feel that all who are not Mormons are evil and going to hell. They feel that they need to reproduce as many mormons as possible to build an "army" of Mormons to run the planet after the apocolypse(sp?)" "Smith taught that the trinity was comprised of three individual gods. God the Father was once a man who lived on another Earth. He obeyed all the laws of his god, and as a result achieved divinity. When the time came to start his own world (ours), he used a surplus of people from another earth. " "Joseph Smith taught that men whose marriages are sealed and approved by the Church will become gods in the hereafter, populating their own worlds. They will create their own versions of Jesus and Satan. " before you make up your mind on anything. educate yourself. find out the truth. then make your decision. c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSF Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 It seems like Mormonism would be a pretty easy religion for a sicko to hide behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 Seems to me any religion canbe easy for a sicko to hide behind. Or sickos depending on one's definition. Oh and Orange, my views are much like those of others, ( we refer to ourselves as "heathens") who are not part of the dominant faith of this state, however, would you mind clearifying about this? " Even the most conservative catholic would not condone atrocities such as polygamy and spousal abuse, whereas the most conservative mormon most definitely would." In other words. Prove it. I do know about the polygamy part and it is an issue that the church continues to deal with. Much like others are dealing with their own "atrocities". And please tell me about this state that I've lived in for 17 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSF Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 Originally posted by Park City Skins Seems to me any religion canbe easy for a sicko to hide behind. Or sickos depending on one's definition. Agreed, but Mormonism, or at least some faction of it, has a history of sexual dominance, polygamy, and racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Happy Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 Personally, I have heard a lot of bashing of Christianity based on some questionable things people have done in the past in the name of Christianity (for example: The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition.) There are bad seeds in every religion. We need to be careful to separate the teachings of the religion from the people who are of that religion but don't live those teachings. Clearly, Christians are not fanatical heretic burners, just as Mormons are not racist, children's rights trampling wife beaters and Muslims are not terrorists. Actually, I think that most religions are pretty similar in their beliefs of what is right and wrong, so I give tend to them benefit of the doubt. As far as spousal abuse, the only religion I have heard rumors of teaching men to beat their wife is Islam. In that case it is simply a misunderstanding of Qur'an 4:34. I really doubt there is a religion that promotes wife abuse. Feel free to prove me wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 Originally posted by GSF Agreed, but Mormonism, or at least some faction of it, has a history of sexual dominance, polygamy, and racism. See Zero's post above for the answer to that one. And it's still no reason make sweeping generalizations about any religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSF Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 Just to be clear, I'm not making any generalizations about anyone PCS and I know that there are 1000s of Mormons living perfectly normal lives, but since you asked for it: http://www.polygamyinfo.com/plygmedia%2002%20161globe.htm http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon216.htm http://www.valleyskeptic.com/Mchurch.htm http://www.ibae.org/html/morpoly.html http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/12/08/polygamy.appeal.ap/ http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_poly.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 Sorry, I was born a Snake-Handler, and I'll die a Snake- Handler ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 Originally posted by GSF It seems like Mormonism would be a pretty easy religion for a sicko to hide behind. This GSF, can be easily interpreted as a generalization. And that is what was being referred too. Didn't ask for anything GSF, ( not from specifically anyway), but interesting sites never the less. Though keep in mind nothing new there for me. And prove nothing. Except like any other church, they have their problems. However, is there any doubt that I could provide similar, ( as in equally...."interesting" subject matter), links to just about any other religion out there? ( The Catholic Church and hiding sexual abuse, the bombing of aboriton clinics and religion for example). We can dance back and forth all night like that if you wish but I see no point in that. Proves nothing but Zero's point. I have basic theological differences with the teachings of the Mormon Church but then, I have similar differences with other denominations as well. But I'm not going to go out and say things about them as a whole as a result of actions by a few if not some of those whp pracitce those faiths. Especially those Snake-Handlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSF Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 Originally posted by Park City Skins This GSF, can be easily interpreted as a generalization. And that is what was being referred too. I'm sorry for not being more clear. My point was not that Mormons are bad people, but that bad people could hide behind Mormonism b/c of its known history of polygamy, sexual dominance, and racism. I apologize if I have offended any Mormons on this site, b/c that was not my intenetion. Didn't ask for annything GSF, but interesting sites never the less. Though kep in mind nothing new there for me. However, is there any doubt that I could provide similar, ( as in equally...."interesting" subject matter), links to just about any other religion out there? We can dance back and forth all night like that if you wish but I see no point in that. Proves nothing but Zero's point. I have basic theological differences with the teachings of the Mormon Church but then, I have similar differences with other denominations as well. I thought that when you and Zero cool said "prove it" you were asking for something. My bad there. No doubt you could find "interesting" links to other religions. Bad people hide behind religion all around the world, but I would be surprised if you found thousands of people living living polygamistic or sexually abusive lifestyles in the US in the name of any religion other than Mormonism. There are approximately 30,000 in Utah that still participate in this lifestyle, and yes it is abusive. Marrying and having sex with a 13 year old is abuse according to the laws of this country. Here's a thought PCS. What if Joseph Smith was not a God fearing man at all? What if he simply created his religion to enable his perverse behavior? He did, after all, have many wives including a 13 year old. He told the parents of teenage girls that giving him their daughters would assure them a spot in heaven. What if Mormonism started off as a cult that allowed a man, Joseph Smith, to have as many women as he wanted? What if this cult grew into an actual religion as it got passed down from generation to generation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 I'm fully aware of polygamy GSF. I lived at one point in time not but 5 miles from one, till it was...... taken care of by the state. I understand that it is in fact abusive. I'm well aware of the numbers, ( Google is a wonderful thing is it not? ) and don't need to be lectured on it's practice. I do not defend it nor condone it. But that is irrelevent. Much like the sites you provided. The church does not actively support polygamy nor is it a "core" belief of the church. At least not in this present day and age. Neither is abuse. What you provided, again, are samples. What a few do in their own interpretation of their religion. That was the point and I fail to see how you missed that so far. I am fully aware of Joe Smith's history. Please tell me you don't think that in 17 years of living in Utah I haven't had the opportunity to visit this very subject just a few times. And get this, according to what I've read in this very forum from time to time, some here and abroad will tell you that Catholocism, Christianity, and others started in much the same way. They just started earlier, ( though it is true that Mormons believe their faith has been around for alot longer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSF Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 Originally posted by Park City Skins I'm fully aware of polygamy GSF. I lived at one point in time not but 5 miles from one, till it was...... taken care of by the state. I understand that it is in fact abusive. I'm well aware of the numbers, ( Google is a wonderful thing is it not? ) and don't need to be lectured on it's practice. I do not defend it nor condone it. But that is irrelevent. Much like the sites you provided. The church does not actively support polygamy nor is it a "core" belief of the church. At least not in this present day and age. Neither is abuse. What you provided, again, are samples. What a few do in their own interpretation of their religion. That was the point and I fail to see how you missed that so far. I am fully aware of Joe Smith's history. Please tell me you don't think that in 17 years of living in Utah I haven't had the opportunity to visit this very subject just a few times. And get this, according to what I've read in this very forum from time to time, some here and abroad will tell you that Catholocism, Christianity, and others started in much the same way. They just started earlier, ( though it is true that Mormons believe their faith has been around for alot longer). I'm not lecturing you, just trying to back up my statements. Why are you so defensive? What point have I missed, that only a small percentage of Mormons practice polygamy? I've already acknowledged that. That other religions can also be hid behind? I agreed with that too. My point, once again, was that Mormonism's history makes it real easy for a person to do some very bad things and claim it's their religion. Much more so than with any other religion widely practiced in the US. 30,000 people is a lot more than a few. Christianity and Catholocism may have been started the same way, but I doubt for the same reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfara Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 i have friends who are mormon and tell me the SP episode was pretty accurate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 I think you may have misunderstood my point Chomerics. I was not trying to say that other faiths have been positively proven to be the truth. There was/is/always will be a ton of discussion regarding the proof that (fill in the blank) religion is the one true way. I have no problem with that. On some level, you have to have faith in the unproven in any religion. My point was that once a faith is PROVEN to be FALSE based on the writings of it's own prophet then it's a done deal for me. If you show a person factual evidence that proves their prophet was lying and they still chose to believe, then they're simply choosing to believe in fairy tales. At the very least, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc. can say nobody has ever categorically proven AN ENTIRE HOLY BOOK of their faith to be nonsense. What am I talking about you ask. Well, prior to the days when hieroglyphics could be translated, Joseph Smith claimed to have translated a papyrus written in Egyptian hieroglyphics. For Mormons this is called the Book of Abraham. Later after hieroglyphics were able to be accurately translated the papyrus was checked by scholars and it turns out the "Book of Abraham" papyrus was actually an Egyptian funerary text called the Book of Breathings which as I understand it was a part of the Book of the Dead. It had nothing whatsoever to do with Abraham or anything else that Smith said it did. I'm sorry, but if someone came up with actual physical proof that my faith was a falsehood I'd have to find something else to believe in. That the so called faith promotes racisim and child molestation would make it even more difficult for me to continue with it. Both of these taken together are why I really have a hard time respecting Mormonism. I too have known some very nice, very wonderful people who happened to be Mormon. However, that doesn't change the facts about their faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSkins Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 Originally posted by OrangeSkin I'm personally very surprised at the growth of the Mormon church. They hold some very bizarre and unfounded beliefs, but they manage to spin their religion so it's acceptable in mainstream society with some very slick marketing. Jesus having a virgin mother is not a bizarre and unfounded belief? All of Christianity and other organized religions are spun so they are acceptable to the mainstream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. D Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 Socal,,,finally the point! They(religions) are all fables and fabrications anyway; so who cares which one you want to "believe" in... Man's search for spirituality need not some some fanatstic fairy tale; just inner wisdom .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 Originally posted by Yusuf06 I think you may have misunderstood my point Chomerics. I was not trying to say that other faiths have been positively proven to be the truth. There was/is/always will be a ton of discussion regarding the proof that (fill in the blank) religion is the one true way. I have no problem with that. On some level, you have to have faith in the unproven in any religion. My point was that once a faith is PROVEN to be FALSE based on the writings of it's own prophet then it's a done deal for me. If you show a person factual evidence that proves their prophet was lying and they still chose to believe, then they're simply choosing to believe in fairy tales. At the very least, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc. can say nobody has ever categorically proven AN ENTIRE HOLY BOOK of their faith to be nonsense. What am I talking about you ask. Well, prior to the days when hieroglyphics could be translated, Joseph Smith claimed to have translated a papyrus written in Egyptian hieroglyphics. For Mormons this is called the Book of Abraham. Later after hieroglyphics were able to be accurately translated the papyrus was checked by scholars and it turns out the "Book of Abraham" papyrus was actually an Egyptian funerary text called the Book of Breathings which as I understand it was a part of the Book of the Dead. It had nothing whatsoever to do with Abraham or anything else that Smith said it did. I'm sorry, but if someone came up with actual physical proof that my faith was a falsehood I'd have to find something else to believe in. That the so called faith promotes racisim and child molestation would make it even more difficult for me to continue with it. Both of these taken together are why I really have a hard time respecting Mormonism. I too have known some very nice, very wonderful people who happened to be Mormon. However, that doesn't change the facts about their faith. Yusuf, thanks for clarifying your point. I also wanted to clarify mine as well. While I don't believe in any particular religon and I think they all have their falsehoods, I am open minded and willing to listen to each and every viewpoint concerning religons. I DO think the basis for religon in general is beneficial to the human species, but it can lead to perverse means. You need to look no further than the crusades and muslim fundamentalists to see what I mean. I do have a problem when one religon professes that they are the only "true" religon (such as catholicisim and mormanism) and all other non-believers will go to hell or purgatory. It can lead to perverse efforts to "save" people or a species. If you want to have you own religon, fine and good for you, just as long as your religon is beneficial to society. The minute a religon preaches harm, degrades or berates any aspect of society and any individual's rights, I'm against it. Being an agnostic/atheist I can't profess one god over another and I also don't necessarily believe in any god, but I do believe in social behavior manifesting itself to form a religon. For example, if we found out that alien life does exist on other planets (almost a certain IMO) and we were able to converse with these aliens, religon as we currently know it would cease to be. Society would rally together as a species instead of a race, or a nationality. We would ALL be humans, not American, German, Iraqi etc etc. This would form the ultimate melding of religon, sociology and politics. This would be the beginning of the enlightenment on man and it would take place of a religon. Personally, I think that this will happen, as long as we don't destroy ourselves in the process. We have the capibility and technology to wipe life off of the planet. Thus, we must make sure that we never allow one government or one individual which values human life less than their beliefs to take controll. We are perilously close to this position right now, and I hope and pray that we never pass this threshold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyderShrugged Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 Originally posted by Riggotoni skin-n-vegas - Sounds like your wife's father was a member of a break-off version of the mainstream Mormon church, much the same way the Branch Davidians were a breakoff of 7th Day Adventists. The Mormon church condemns child and spousal abuse, and has not practiced polygamy in nearly 100 years. The theory of "break-off" mormon groups is a tact used by the Mormon church to distance themselves in a legal sense, from their practices that prohibited Utah from gaining statehood. Basically the Mormons made a concession to the Federal Government that they would abandon Polygamy publically. The Church never really had "break-offs" except in the sense that scapegoats were needed in order to divert the attention from the core of the church. It worked. Due to my interactions with the Mormons via my wife's family. I concede that many of the lower ranking Mormon followers are totally unaware of the vile practices that are condoned by their church. These practices are seen as priveleges to the higher ranking members. They are performed in secret rituals that even the most devout low ranking Mormon is unaware of. I saw some others that responded to my post felt I was being unfair to the Mormon Church. I can only tell youy that my wife and 9 siblings were all abused not only in the name of the chruch, but in THE CHURCH ITSELF. To those people, I respect your opinions and your faith, but please don't insult me or my family by minimizing our claims of what has happened to my wife and her loved ones. These things did happen and they have scarred her for life. The Mormons track us down wherever we go. They always ask for my wife and often use her maiden name. This could be coincidence, I guess but isnt it strange that we were warned that this would happen by other former Mormons who were inthe know? We are living in constant apprehension never knowing if the Mormons will do more than just show up on our doorstep and preach about our sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 Originally posted by chomerics Being an agnostic/atheist I can't profess one god over another and I also don't necessarily believe in any god, but I do believe in social behavior manifesting itself to form a religon... ....We are perilously close to this position right now, and I hope and pray that we never pass this threshold. I'm honestly not trying to get in a stone throwing match but I am wondering if you are an "agnostic/atheist" then who do you "pray" to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 It is because of religious people that agnostics say "pray" instead of "hope" it is just a part of the language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 Originally posted by Liberty It is because of religious people that agnostics say "pray" instead of "hope" it is just a part of the language. Whereas I would say its something far deeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 Originally posted by Stu I'm honestly not trying to get in a stone throwing match but I am wondering if you are an "agnostic/atheist" then who do you "pray" to? When I say pray, I'm not talking about the religous sense of the word. I am using it in another context. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pray pray ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr) v. prayed, pray·ing, prays v. intr. To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship. To make a fervent request or entreaty. v. tr. To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer. To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful. To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak. To move or bring by prayer or entreaty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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