afparent Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Originally posted by RDSKNfaithfull Champs worst year (last year) is still better than what we will ever see from Smoot. Listen he was great played injured and says all the right things he is a great guy, but he still gave 15 yard cushions still had help in coverage, still gave up third downs. Dont be fooled because his expectations are not nearly as high. WHAT GAMES WERE YOU PEOPLE WATCHING LAST YEAR??? Time and time again and especially in crucial situations Champ was out played. Ok, one question if Champ is so damn good, then why were teams with average QBs and average WRs going right at Champ during crunch time (Giants and panthers ring a bell)? I agrre that Smoot played off the ball last year but to say Champ's worst year is better than anything Smoot will do, then I will give up on the season now!!! If we have both our CBs play like Champ did last year, then we are in trouble!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDSKNfaithfull Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Originally posted by afparent WHAT GAMES WERE YOU PEOPLE WATCHING LAST YEAR??? Time and time again and especially in crucial situations Champ was out played. Ok, one question if Champ is so damn good, then why were teams with average QBs and average WRs going right at Champ during crunch time (Giants and panthers ring a bell)? I agrre that Smoot played off the ball last year but to say Champ's worst year is better than anything Smoot will do, then I will give up on the season now!!! If we have both our CBs play like Champ did last year, then we are in trouble!!!! OMG :doh: Smoot was not on the island Champ was on (not even close) You can count the number of times Champ was beat bad on one hand while playing injured and still had more responsability than any corner in the league currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afparent Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Originally posted by RDSKNfaithfull OMG :doh: Smoot was not on the island Champ was on (not even close) You can count the number of times Champ was beat bad on one hand while playing injured and still had more responsability than any corner in the league currently. This stuff about Champ played their best receiver one on one while Smoot got help is way overrated. First off Champ is suppose to be a "shut down" corner so he should have shut them down....he did not! Secondly, he was getting paid to shut down all recievers...he did not. What is the excuse when Marty Booker, I repeat, Marty Booker burned Champ by at least ten yards and when Champ tried to close he got kicked in the face. And the play no one talks about against the Eagles, season finale, run play to Champ's side and he got out of the way...I repeat, got out of the way....it is on film!!! Last year Champ played about as well as Martin Mayhew. good, but not great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDSKNfaithfull Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Originally posted by afparent This stuff about Champ played their best receiver one on one while Smoot got help is way overrated. First off Champ is suppose to be a "shut down" corner so he should have shut them down....he did not! Secondly, he was getting paid to shut down all recievers...he did not. What is the excuse when Marty Booker, I repeat, Marty Booker burned Champ by at least ten yards and when Champ tried to close he got kicked in the face. And the play no one talks about against the Eagles, season finale, run play to Champ's side and he got out of the way...I repeat, got out of the way....it is on film!!! Last year Champ played about as well as Martin Mayhew. good, but not great! Hmmm Ty law is not left in man coverage with the whole secondary rolling to the oppisite side of the field:doh: lmao Overrated my foot :laugh: put Smoot in that postion. BTW Champ bit on a double move on the Booker TD and had NO saftey help what so ever Bowen was not even with in a 15 yard radius. All corners get beat ALL OF THEM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedB&G4life Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Originally posted by Chachie Champ Bailey is physically a better corner and DEFINITELY a better tackler, but I think Smooty has more heart, desire, and character than Champ. I think these qualities will make the guys around him better. Denver needs a Champ Bailey worse than we do and we needed Clinton Portis worse than they do. I'm very happy with the trade and with Fred Smoot as our co #1 CB. SmooooTYY! :point2sky I couldn't agree with you more. Smoot has all of the attributes that you need to be a productive CB but, I don't think he is in Champ's league yet. He will get his chance to change that though especially if Springs gets back to his old form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimreaper36 Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Champ may be considered to be the more gifted but I think Smoot may make more game changing plays. Say what you will about a "shut down corner" being game changing in itself, but I don't think it got us many wins. I'd put money on Smoot having more picks this year than Champ, and that IMHO changes games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey T Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 It's a shame Roland has to play on the same team as the Snake. Roland made his rep against the Card's and the Snake. Roland had three interceptions against the Snake in one game his rookie season. That put him (Roland) on the media map and the media have been flapping their lips over him ever since. Smoot has shown more heart than Roland and he makes plays. He's not as big as Roland, but gets it done despite of his size. If Smoot has a very good year, we will have to give up serious money to retain him next year. I believe Dano & Vinnie have a contingent plan in place if that is the case. For those who don't know: Roland = Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCMONEY Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Man people on this forum harp on Toomer and Booker as a reason to say Champ wasn't a shutdown corner. I think people play on the shutdown term too much. Last yr. I predicted that our whole back 7 would play worse because our front 4 was so terrible. I was correct as all of them were termed undisicplined all year. People came out of their element trying to take chances, Champ still was and is a 4 time pro-bowler out of 5 yrs. Champ has done far more good than bad. He's the best corner in the league to me and even if you a hater, you'd have to admit he's top 3 to 5. I've seen Champ play well against Keyshawn Johnson, Marvin Harrison, Santana Moss, Davis Boston, Terell Owens to name a few. If you play corner long enough you'll get beat sometimes but thats not how I judge a corner. I look at what he does game in and game out and play after play. I woulda loved to see what Champ would be like had he had a consistent pass rush here. He didn't and is still a four time pro bowler. Corners last longer than RB and I hope Portis is durable enough to warrant giving up Champ, a 2nd rounder and the richest RB contract in history. People make silly statements like Champ couldn't get us wins. :doh: He can only play his position which he has overall at a pro bowl level. I think Deion Sanders left the Falcons because they weren't winning but he was doing his job overall and he had his share games in Atlanta getting cooked a time or 2. He shined more when he got to better teams. Same can be said with Aneas Williams formerly of the Cardinals. He left and went to the Rams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW31 Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 How is this even an issue... Champ is the second best corner in the league, and the most athletic. All that talked about heart is nonsense, Champ gave it his all on every play. I would love to have him on my team. Smoots best year would likely be as a borderline probowler... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaSkinzBaby Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Let us all be glad that Fred Smoot is Smoot and not Chump Bailey. The only person that will miss Bug Face is Armani Toomer.......... Champ Bailey the biggest overrated CB in the NFL period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaSkinzBaby Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 All that talked about heart is nonsense, Champ gave it his all on every play. I would love to have him on my team. Smoots best year would likely be as a borderline probowler... PLEASE When slow old Marty Booker BURNS you to the point that he leaves CLEATE MARKS on your face that is sad. Even Jerry Rice will smoke Bailey like a blunt...... Champ = HYPE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funnyperson1 Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Champ is the better cornerback, lets not be homers here. Maybe in a year or two Smoot can be at that level but for now he needs to really show me something before he can even approach Champ. I don't know who will do better because I don't know much about the Broncos D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afparent Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Originally posted by RDSKNfaithfull Hmmm Ty law is not left in man coverage with the whole secondary rolling to the oppisite side of the field:doh: lmao Overrated my foot :laugh: put Smoot in that postion. BTW Champ bit on a double move on the Booker TD and had NO saftey help what so ever Bowen was not even with in a 15 yard radius. All corners get beat ALL OF THEM Not beat like that....when he tried to close he couldn't and got cleat marks in his face. That was bad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsfan1311 Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 ....gotta be Champ! But Smoot will be pretty close! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halter91 Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Champ will. With smoot I really think it depends on his supporting cast, Champ didn't really rely on them much. If we can get to the QB and with the addition of Mr. Taylor. WHO KNOWS!! SMOOOOOOOOOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskeypeet Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Its just a matter of time........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Originally posted by afparent Not beat like that....when he tried to close he couldn't and got cleat marks in his face. That was bad! Actually, he bit on the pump fake and was closing in on Booker. He just couldn't wrap up the tackle and two cleats cut his face. Although it wasn't as nearly as bad when Lewis was coaching our defense and didn't allow Champ to shadow the best reciever, and the Cards put Boston on Smoot's side and he embarassed Smoot on a 50 yard fade route. If I recall correctly, Smoot fell for a move and did a complete 360 looking for where Boston went. Meanwhile, Boston was 10 yards upfield awaiting the ball on his way to the endzone. David Boston has never had a good game aganist Champ Bailey. I like Smoot, I like him alot. Yet everytime people compare him to Champ, I think about what it would be like if Smoot played under the same conditions as Champ does and I think about what Antonio Bryant did to him. There really isn't any comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 I don't think there's any question that Smoot is more a work in progress, but he can be a great corner. Shawn Springs is here and he brings alot of experience to the table. Champ's a Bronco. I don't think the door hit him in the a$$, so here's to 2004....and Clinton Portis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Originally posted by arringtonhitz Even Jerry Rice will smoke Bailey like a blunt...... Champ = HYPE That is just laughable. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Streater101 Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Originally posted by afparent First off Champ is suppose to be a "shut down" corner so he should have shut them down....he did not! Secondly, he was getting paid to shut down all recievers...he did not. I kinda feel the same way you do. I don't care about the Pro Bowls, or the reputation he has as the best. If you're getting paid to shut down a side of the field, then I'm gonna expect him to do that. "but every corner gets beat" Ok, thats fine. I can accept him getting beat by the likes of Torry Holt, or a Chad Johnson, but I can't be as apologetic as others when I see him getting blown away by Bethel Johnson or Marty Booker. Lets not get ahead of ourselves though. Smoot will need to have another season like he did last year - against the other teams #1, with less help over the top before we can even have this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sire Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Smoot shouldn't even be mentioned with Champ. Champ is a far better corner than Smoot. Smoot is a #2 corner. That being said I still think the Skins D will be better because there are professionals coaching the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallsux Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Originally posted by afparent I have to believe he is going to have a great year. First off, he had a good year last year with no pass rush. With a different scheme, he could get a bunch of picks. Although picks are not a true indication of playing cornerback, I think he is just going to have a great year, I also have to believe if he were to get juked, Taylor will be back there laying the lumber so that will help a lot. His big test will be against TO. Don't be surprise if he has a quiet year. In other words, you won't hear his name called too often on TV. That will be the true indication of how he is playing. Actually, the "who's better than who" contest between Champ & Smoot will be best looked at long term. What I mean is, QB's get scared to throw to "elite" CB's. Look at Green. Green made QB's afraid of him & they wouldn't throw to his side of the field. By the time he retired, I think the percentage was something Godawful like 30% of all passes thru-out his career went to his side of the field. 30%! But that kind of thing took years to acrew. Shorter term, I would look at INT's & Tackles. Although, if the D-Line is doing their job, his tackles will be really low. Champ has John Lynch at his side. Smoot has 10 other guys who can hit the hell out of people. So, I think statistically, Champ will probably come out looking better, but not necessarily BEING better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 How can anyone objectively say Smoot is a better corner, when he regularly plays 7-9 yards off the reciever because he can't play bump-n-run effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afparent Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Originally posted by CowboyzSuckAzz Actually, the "who's better than who" contest between Champ & Smoot will be best looked at long term. What I mean is, QB's get scared to throw to "elite" CB's. Look at Green. Green made QB's afraid of him & they wouldn't throw to his side of the field. By the time he retired, I think the percentage was something Godawful like 30% of all passes thru-out his career went to his side of the field. 30%! But that kind of thing took years to acrew. Shorter term, I would look at INT's & Tackles. Although, if the D-Line is doing their job, his tackles will be really low. Champ has John Lynch at his side. Smoot has 10 other guys who can hit the hell out of people. So, I think statistically, Champ will probably come out looking better, but not necessarily BEING better. QBs were not scared to throw to champ's side last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kappaluvacee Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Champ gets the nod. Smoot is still getting better; Champ is at that stage of his career where most teams don't pick on his side. Smoot is more aggressive because he's used to getting more action thrown his way. I think he'll eventually get the respect that Champ now receives. On an equal note, I think Denver is about to find out they over-paid Mr. Bailey. An aging Rice/Brown have to still be considered at a minimum, the equal to Toomer. Looks like Champ will need some jam with all that toast. Norv will also exploit weaknesses he r remembers from Bailey like the “double-move” Toomer used all game to get free on Bailey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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