Reverse D line question

[Burgold]

Most of us agree that our Dline is our weakness... though some tend to rate the players as mostly average. The question is this though... how many NFL teams have a D Line worse than ours. Can you list them?

[Brooklynskinsfan]

chargers, cardinals, bears all i can think of off the top of my head could be wrong though

[DCMONEY]

No one has a D-Line worse than ours. Maybe just as bad but not worse. In terms of playing the run and rushing the passer, they're pathetic. I remember I think in the 1st game with the Cowbums last yr., how the announcers were clowing the Skins pass rush. Qunicy Carter was just terrible thats all. I remember one of the Giant games, and how Collins stepped up in the pocket and patted the damn ball like 4 times before he just hung the ball up to Toomer. I was like no damn DB can cover someone that damn long. I can't believe the Skins didn't seriously address this problem. Once again Griifin shouldn't have gotten a big contract. I didnt mind picking him up but damn they over paid for a average D-lineman at best. He'll probably be cut in 2 yrs with dead money on the cap like we always do.

[newsbroker]

Originally posted by Brooklynskinsfan

chargers, cardinals, bears all i can think of off the top of my head could be wrong though

I'd take the Cardinals and the Bears defensive lines over the Redskins, hands down, right now.

They both have some young, promising upside type players. The Redskins have none.

[Art]

Well, if Noble is actually near 100 percent the number increases some. Excluding 3-4 defenses which all have weaker lines, I'd say the Cards, Bears, Niners (for lack of any depth), Rams (especially if they are without Little), Titans (though have a lot of young guys to potentially be strong), Chargers, Jags (potentially if they lose Douglas), Browns and MAYBE the Broncos and Bengals.

These are teams that are either clearly weaker or a substantially strong argument could be made (probably either way). Again, presuming a healthy Noble, we have good depth with Daniels/Wynn/Upshaw in rotation at end and Haley available at tackle and good versatility. The real limitation this line has, despite what should be some increase in production with a more aggressive system this year, is that our best pass rushers are almost certainly linebackers. Williams likes to have speed on the field so he won't mind having Washington and Arrington at end in some passing situations with Taylor, Ohalete, Bowen, Barrow, Springs, Smoot and Harris in the back seven.

Still, we really have to get a guy who can rush from the edge so we can keep our backers back.

[Oldskool]

Cards, 9ers, Bolts, Falcons, and Bears That’s it. :mad:

[China]

Originally posted by DCMONEY

No one has a D-Line worse than ours. Maybe just as bad but not worse. In terms of playing the run and rushing the passer, they're pathetic. I remember I think in the 1st game with the Cowbums last yr., how the announcers were clowing the Skins pass rush. Qunicy Carter was just terrible thats all. I remember one of the Giant games, and how Collins stepped up in the pocket and patted the damn ball like 4 times before he just hung the ball up to Toomer. I was like no damn DB can cover someone that damn long. I can't believe the Skins didn't seriously address this problem. Once again Griifin shouldn't have gotten a big contract. I didnt mind picking him up but damn they over paid for a average D-lineman at best. He'll probably be cut in 2 yrs with dead money on the cap like we always do.

Once again you are saying our D-Line can't play based on how the line did last year. Most of the line from last year won't be on the line this year. Also the scheme and coaching will be different. While I agree the D-Line appears to be our weak spot, we cannot definitively say they are terrible until we see them play. So please reserve some judgement at least until the preseason.

[Leonard Washington]

though our line is bad i don't think there is a substantial gap between us and a middle of the pack line.

[DCMONEY]

Originally posted by China

Once again you are saying our D-Line can't play based on how the line did last year. Most of the line from last year won't be on the line this year. Also the scheme and coaching will be different. While I agree the D-Line appears to be our weak spot, we cannot definitively say they are terrible until we see them play. So please reserve some judgement at least until the preseason.

Main man the majority of that line is still there with the exception of Daniels and Griffin. I don't need to wait until the season starts to already see that the talent on that line stinks. Griffin 1st of all has to be an impact player based on the enormous amount of money they gave him. He can't just be solid. Also scheme has nothing to do with being able to pass rush and play the run. That whole line stunk. They played the same scheme last yr. as they did yr. before last. You know what the difference was? Gardner and Wilkinson. You can't replace Gardner and Wilkinson with Noble, Haley, Dalton or Martin Chase. Thats stupid. Having capable tackles are a plus. I don't know if you've ever played football before but a scheme isn't gonna overall turn a weak unit into beast. Like I said. One guy maybe but the whole line. Nope. These players we have are what they are. To imply that Daniels and Griffin are magically turn it on, is silly. I tell you what. If they do Williams ought to get coach of the decade. I see the same amount of sacks coming from this line as the last years.

[China]

Originally posted by DCMONEY

Main man the majority of that line is still there with the exception of Daniels and Griffin. I don't need to wait until the season starts to already see that the talent on that line stinks. Griffin 1st of all has to be an impact player based on the enormous amount of money they gave him. He can't just be solid. Also scheme has nothing to do with being able to pass rush and play the run. That whole line stunk. They played the same scheme last yr. as they did yr. before last. You know what the difference was? Gardner and Wilkinson. You can't replace Gardner and Wilkinson with Noble, Haley, Dalton or Martin Chase. Thats stupid. Having capable tackles are a plus. I don't know if you've ever played football before but a scheme isn't gonna overall turn a weak unit into beast. Like I said. One guy maybe but the whole line. Nope. These players we have are what they are. To imply that Daniels and Griffin are magically turn it on, is silly. I tell you what. If they do Williams ought to get coach of the decade. I see the same amount of sacks coming from this line as the last years.

Ahhh. Mr. Positivity strikes again. All is gloom and doom. Don't expect to fix all the team's deficiencies in one offseason, its unrealistic. The largest team deficiency, coaching, has been fixed. As for D-Line...

Let's see. Daniels is new. Griffin is new. Upshaw didn't play much backing up Bruce Smith, so he will be mostly new (there is a big difference from coming in for a play here and there and staying in and getting a rhythm and feel for your opponent). Wynn is the same. If Noble plays (which to me is doubtful) he would be new, he didn't play last year. Haley was injured part of last year. Essentially, we're talking three out of four new players. That is hardly the same DLine as last year (I'll do the math for you, 75% turnover). So you haven't seen this line play together. What players did with other teams (with other teammates and different coaching schemes) cannot be directly translated, so really you don't know what to expect. But apparently fear is ruling your emotions. Relax and watch (BTW I didn't say wait until the season starts, but rather the preseason).

As for the scheme, last year's under Edwards was not exactly the same as the previous year under Marvin Lewis. For one, under Lewis Lavar Arrington rushed from a down position and got 11 sacks, he wasn't schemed to do that last year and didn't get as many sacks. Williams has said he will do that with LA this year so you can expect more pressure from him this year, so scheme does make a difference.

[DCMONEY]

Originally posted by China

Ahhh. Mr. Positivity strikes again. All is gloom and doom. Don't expect to fix all the team's deficiencies in one offseason, its unrealistic. The largest team deficiency, coaching, has been fixed. As for D-Line...

Let's see. Daniels is new. Griffin is new. Upshaw didn't play much backing up Bruce Smith, so he will be mostly new (there is a big difference from coming in for a play here and there and staying in and getting a rhythm and feel for your opponent). Wynn is the same. If Noble plays (which to me is doubtful) he would be new, he didn't play last year. Haley was injured part of last year. Essentially, we're talking three out of four new players. That is hardly the same DLine as last year (I'll do the math for you, 75% turnover). So you haven't seen this line play together. What players did with other teams (with other teammates and different coaching schemes) cannot be directly translated, so really you don't know what to expect. But apparently fear is ruling your emotions. Relax and watch (BTW I didn't say wait until the season starts, but rather the preseason).

As for the scheme, last year's under Edwards was not exactly the same as the previous year under Marvin Lewis. For one, under Lewis Lavar Arrington rushed from a down position and got 11 sacks, he wasn't schemed to do that last year and didn't get as many sacks. Williams has said he will do that with LA this year so you can expect more pressure from him this year, so scheme does make a difference.

Daniels is an 7 or 8 yr. veteran who is avg at best period. Griffin while I don't mind signing him but for a 34 million dollar contract? That tells me that they're expecting big things from him. You don't sign a player to that kind of money to wait and see. He needs to be a can't miss, not wait and see project. Also when you sign other teams D players you often get F results. I'll say it again. Whether they were hurt or not. Haley, Noble, Chase, Wynn, Upshaw , Griffin and Daniels is an under average line. Stevie Wonder can this. I'm not being pessimistic I'm being realistic. That line wouldn't step on a peanut in a elephant parade.

[China]

I never said they weren't an under average line, in fact I said as much in some of my posts. My main problem with your posts is that you go to the extreme and insist that they will be the absolute worst. I think that's just overly pessimistic.

[GURU]

Last year's line played poorly. The defense, as a whole, played poorly. The whole team played poorly. I don't think that's neccessarily a reflection of the talent level.

The Skins have been largely an underachieving team. And I think a lot of that has to do with the coaching.

This is not one of the most talented D-lines in the league, but there is the potential for them to play much, much better than they did last season.

Some teams have more talent, but haven't played very well, like that of Cleveland's.

Football is a team sport. You just have to find a group of guys that play well together and believe in their system. A less talented line that plays together with confidence will beat a more talented line that doesn't EVERY time.

[Pocono]

Well right away one thinks of Arizona.......let me see........the Cards have a worse line than you no doubt........after that there's the........did I mention the Arizona Cards???

I would have said SD but they're going 3-4 and had 2 young DLM that had more sacks alone than your starting 04 4 combined.

I can see an argument for the Bears but they've got youth and again more sacks than your fearsome foursome. Your guys are not only bad but except for Griffin old too.

BTW..You guys that included the Niners as worse than the Skins I have to thank you for the comic relief. Engleburger Adams Young and Carter had tons more sacks and were 2nd in the NFC against the run and they've added Whiting and Sapagora. I guess the better depth argument is along the lines of it's better to have to have 2 sacks of manure rather than a fistful of diamonds and one sack of manure because when you replace one sack of manure with another sack of manure your not losing anything out on the field.

[nfchamp1]

Originally posted by DCMONEY

Main man the majority of that line is still there with the exception of Daniels and Griffin.

I don't know if the line will be better this year, but your argument is flawed, to say the least. You argue that the majority of the line is there except for Daniels and Griffin. That is 50% of the starting D-Line. Noble who was a starter on several very good lines in Dallas, did not play a down last year, due to injury. If he comes back healthy, that is 75%.

Also scheme has nothing to do with being able to pass rush and play the run. That whole line stunk. They played the same scheme last yr. as they did yr. before last. You know what the difference was? Gardner and Wilkinson. You can't replace Gardner and Wilkinson with Noble, Haley, Dalton or Martin Chase. Thats stupid. Having capable tackles are a plus. I don't know if you've ever played football before but a scheme isn't gonna overall turn a weak unit into beast. Like I said. One guy maybe but the whole line. Nope. These players we have are what they are. To imply that Daniels and Griffin are magically turn it on, is silly. I tell you what. If they do Williams ought to get coach of the decade. I see the same amount of sacks coming from this line as the last years.

Ray Rhodes turned one of the worst defences in the league into one of the best. They were pretty good under Schottenheimer (before Gardner) as well. When you stop trying to fit square pegs into round holes, in any area of life, significant changes are bound to occur, and everybody looks better. Last year's unit was very undisciplined and poorly coached, and nobody looks good with that kind of coaching.

If Arrington is as effective rushing the passer on third downs as he was two years ago, it will help everybody on the defence. More sacks do not necessarily translate to a better defence. Two years ago, Gardener was voted the Skins best Defensive player with only 4 sacks.

[NavyDave]

We are going to be fine.

Some of you need to drink the Tap water and have faith.

[Pocono]

Upon further reveiw Art made a great point bringing up the Rams. They lost Young and Wistrom and only brought back Sean Moran from SF where he was awful. If Jimmy Kennedy and Pickett and badfoot Lewis don't show a lot more than they have already that team can be in for some real trouble. If they do lose Little we're talking about a real bad DL. I think their efforts show how hard it is to draft a great DT where the failure rate in the first round is about 50%. Thanks Art for pointing that out because they are the lone tough away game for the Eagles outside of the division and a game I was worried about.

[Mr. S]

I think the Cardinals definitely have a young and rising d-line. The Bears and Chargers also have a worse off line than ours. However, I have more faith in our line as well, that they will at least be solid, but we cant expect to be stacked at every position and have the Panters like front 4 as well. We have a strong secondary and linebackers, plus we are stacked at receiver and qb, with a strong running back, and a potentially awesome o-line. D-line is a weakness, but we are totally stacked everywhere else.

[Pocono]

Another good question is are you better off with what you have or would you rather have a DL composed of players that you either cut or didn't re-sign. Would you rather have Wynn Griffin Haley and Daniels or Kenard Lang Dan Wilkenson Daryl Gardner and ND Kalu? Lang and Kalu averaged 7 sacks apiece the jast 2 years so the DE's are a no brainer IMO. Wilkenson and Gardner also get more sacks than Griffen/Haley and are harder to move out of the way in order to run against so wouldn't they have to get the nod also?

[atloldskin]

Somebody said the Falcons. Their DL talent exceeds ours IMO. Still, Art and some of the others are right, our DL will be at least 75% new with a much coaching and a stronger, faster LB corp.

If the O controls the ball (and we don't throw every down), this D could be much improved. We need to stop the run first on defense.