NWS!!New Abuse/Torture Photos from Iraq Possible NWS links.

[Prosperity]

The rape pictures ARE fake but I think the videos and photos that Rumsfeld was talking about are completely different.

(Oh and Sarge next time don't post things and say they are from the Koran when they aren't that is just propaganda)

[Sarge]

Originally posted by Liberty

The rape pictures ARE fake but I think the videos and photos that Rumsfeld was talking about are completely different.

(Oh and Sarge next time don't post things and say they are from the Koran when they aren't that is just propaganda)

I told you I'd dig it up when I have time. I wasted my time reading the koran after 9/11 and really have no desire to waste any more of my day digging up book numbers. When I have time to sit and look, I'll get it to you.

It could possibly be in a hadeth or Kitab Al-Hudud, pardon this kaffur for not being properly versed in heathen. In the meantime, here are some more woman smacking hits I had bookmarked

004.034

YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

This is a fun one from Kitab Al-Hudud too

Book 38, Number 4348:

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.

He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

[Prosperity]

ok thats fine , I'll wait till then.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Sarge

The problem, as has been discussed ad nauseum, is that we are fighting those in islam that subscribe to the the verses like I posted above. If Christians were going out and killing innocents and blowing crap up en masse because they were taking the Bible literally, they'd be screwed up too. But the Christian religion isn't like that today except for a few whack jobs. Islam is like that and continues to preach the strict, violent portion of the koran. Then teh brave jihadists, when confronted by someon other than kids and women, go scurring to don their burques and hide out with the same women they were slapping around earlier in the day.

In short, blame certain individuals, not the religion as a whole. I know and work with many muslims and none of them are bringing grenades to work and plotting to kill everyone.

Certain freako's are using Islam and twisting it to motivate and brainwash lesser men, sadly, the same has been done using the bible and christianity.

[webnarc]

Let's not forget that the people this happened to weren't exactly the creme of Iraqi society. There were POW's, rapist and probably looter in that prison. Probably the same looters the left was screaming about running around loose lotting the museum last year. I seem to remember cries from the left of "Why don't you do something about them? Why don't you lock them up"

Remember?

Sort of true, but piss facials are not common place punishment for criminals in the US. Sure, they may have to visit the toss salad man, but even he won't piss in the face of the tosser.

The other fact is, maybe there are some innocent people in that prison.

[chomerics]

I just got off the phone with somebody from DOD intel. Now, Sarge, I may be overstepping my bounds, but this is how it was explained to me.

The Iraqi prisoners were "softened" up for American interrorgators. They were brutally beat with sticks, there were women gang raped, and some Iraqi's actually died.

All of this stuff happened last year and the White House knew about it in January. They claimed they were investegating the matter, but they knew about the pictures, and there's a video being passed around too.

Is this what happened? I'm asking you Sarge, because the person I just got off the phone with works for intel and says it past across his/her desk about two months ago. They also told me it was pretty much well known around the military what was going on. I was also told there have also been some similar type problems at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

This is what Rummy is talking about when he says it will get much worse?

Do you know anything of the crap going on?

[Hooper]

"They were brutally beat with sticks, there were women gang raped, and some Iraqi's actually died. "

The gang rape stuff just can't be true. It just can't. The other allegations are bad enough, but actually raping female Iraqi prisoners? Oh man.

[Tarhog]

I'll say it again. We don't know the facts. I doubt seriously whether even those at DoD know all the facts. Speculating, particularly about gang rapes and murders is extremely irresponsible. Now all of our sudden our intel is rock solid?

Its not about covering up. Its not about denying this is possible. Anything is possible. Its not about minimizing brutality or making excuses. Its about simple fairness to those serving. Until we know how bad any abuse was, and how widespread it was (so far, we're essentially talking about some MP's isolated in a few holding areas - some of whom were 'contract workers' - technically not even US military), it would be wise not to cast about rumors as 'facts'.

But hey. Thats just me.

[miragv]

The last thing we needed.........things are going from bad to worse

[Hooper]

Great post, Tarhog.

[Sarge]

Originally posted by chomerics

I just got off the phone with somebody from DOD intel. Now, Sarge, I may be overstepping my bounds, but this is how it was explained to me.

The Iraqi prisoners were "softened" up for American interrorgators. They were brutally beat with sticks, there were women gang raped, and some Iraqi's actually died.

All of this stuff happened last year and the White House knew about it in January. They claimed they were investegating the matter, but they knew about the pictures, and there's a video being passed around too.

Is this what happened? I'm asking you Sarge, because the person I just got off the phone with works for intel and says it past across his/her desk about two months ago. They also told me it was pretty much well known around the military what was going on. I was also told there have also been some similar type problems at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

This is what Rummy is talking about when he says it will get much worse?

Do you know anything of the crap going on?

I'm about as in the dark as the rest of you. There were rumors going around last year about prisoners beng roughed up, but to be honest, nobody thought it was anything like this.

I can believe the baton part, and I can believe some were shot while trying to escape or incitng a riot. Like I said, this wasn't the creme of society in these jails, these were hard core radicals and/or general riff raff criminals.

The gang rape thing I have a hard time with. As has been shown this week, there are some dipsh!ts in the military, but I just don't believe a group of people would stand around and watch that happen. Which leads to one of my many questions;

Where the hell were the NCO's during all this?

[chomerics]

Originally posted by Sarge

I'm about as in the dark as the rest of you. There were rumors going around last year about prisoners beng roughed up, but to be honest, nobody thought it was anything like this.

I can believe the baton part, and I can believe some were shot while trying to escape or incitng a riot. Like I said, this wasn't the creme of society in these jails, these were hard core radicals and/or general riff raff criminals.

The gang rape thing I have a hard time with. As has been shown this week, there are some dipsh!ts in the military, but I just don't believe a group of people would stand around and watch that happen. Which leads to one of my many questions;

Where the hell were the NCO's during all this?

Thanks for the reply Sarge. I know we usually don't see eye to eye, but I think were both on the same side with this one.

The person I talked to is a GS 15 and saw the information a while ago (Jan-Feb timeframe). I asked the person if this stuff was true, and they told me a lot more than what's out there now is true. I asked them about women being raped and the person just said yep it happened. I wanted to know if you heard anything about it because the person said it came through military channels.

All I can say is WTF?!?

If these allegations are indeed true, this is a travesty against humanity. We are the ones to hold the moral high ground, we are the ones to defend the meak, WTF. I'm so upset I feel like I'm gonna :puke: I can't immagine how you feel right now.

This sux!

[Sarge]

Originally posted by chomerics

Thanks for the reply Sarge. I know we usually don't see eye to eye, but I think were both on the same side with this one.

The person I talked to is a GS 15 and saw the information a while ago (Jan-Feb timeframe). I asked the person if this stuff was true, and they told me a lot more than what's out there now is true. I asked them about women being raped and the person just said yep it happened. I wanted to know if you heard anything about it because the person said it came through military channels.

All I can say is WTF?!?

If these allegations are indeed true, this is a travesty against humanity. We are the ones to hold the moral high ground, we are the ones to defend the meak, WTF. I'm so upset I feel like I'm gonna :puke: I can't immagine how you feel right now.

This sux!

I guess this is as good a place to put my whole 2 cents as any other post.

Frankly, I'm stunned. The Armed Forces are made up of professionals that should have never let something like this go down. Not saying we are perfect, because I've seen some screwed up stuff, but nothing to this degree. That said, here's what I think on the rest of it.

On the prisoners, let me first say that what happened is wrong, to a degree, but I would like to know the context and situation that was going down in there.

If the guards were just pulling these guys out and forcing them into a naked fag pile for fun and pics, they need to be shot.

If it was for intelligence gathering or discipline I'll say this: Iraqis ain't the most cooperative POW's on the planet from what I hear. They are used to being beaten in their army on a regular basis, and it really does not phase them. What they do fear is women having power over them and making them do things. It's not a physical fear, but a cultural one, as evidenced by the one guy that says he can no longer live in Iraq because he is too embarrassed to live there anymore. They are taught that women are so low that to have them be bossed by one is a cultural shame. Seems to me the use of cultural shame is a damn sight better way to get info than other methods that could be used. If that works for intelligence or to calm them down if they are raising hell, well, I really have no problem with them making them wear womens panties on their heads. The homo poses were a bit overboard. Sounds like that sheriff in Arizona that makes his inmates wear pink jumpsuits and work chain gangs would be perfect here.

But you know what, when all was said and done, and at the end of the day, all of those prisoners were alive, which is a damn sight better than some of our POW's got at the hands of the Iraqi army in this or the first Gulf War, and much better than the previous occupants of the prison got I'm sure.

Another thing that has been disturbing this week is the media response. I know in the back of their little leftist hearts, they really don't care for the military, but have been pretty much silenced since the first Gulf War because the military had huge public backing. I think they sense an opportunity here, led by the likes of ted rall, the do a little military bashing to see who will jump on board. It reminds me of Vietnam, particuliarly the Tet Offensive, where we wiped up the North Vietnamese but it was portrayed as a commie victory in the press in the States. It was the beginning of the end of public support for that war, and I really wouldn't be surprised to see them try something like that here, if not for their own gratification, then to bash at Bush.

I also have problems with how the word "Torture" has been bandied about. Womens panties on someones head is not torture, nor is being stripped naked, nor being kept awake for a few days. Torture is chopping off a finger or two, breaking knees, slicing tongues etc. Abuse, yeah. Torture. Not even close

And of course there was the predictable response from the left on Capitol Hill. I loved the "This is an unwinnable war" comment, and that shining beacon of patriotism, sheila jackson lee, is evidently starting the effort to cut funding for the troops. I don't care what you think of policy, you don't pull the rug out from under the military in the field. If you don't like policy, you try to get the formulator of the policy to not be reelected.

And then there are people worrying over what the Arab gutter thinks of this. To be honset, I really don't care. They hated us before this went down, and they'll hate us for the foreseeable future.

My 2 cents. I really hope this doesn't play out with anything more graphic than what has already been shown, because like I said, it is unbelievably stunning to those of us that pride ourselves on our conduct and discipline. I think I'll sit back on this and see what else comes out over the next few days/weeks to comment further.

[nycskinsfan]

There is no ? that those uninforms are not ours.

[BG]

Originally posted by Sarge

I believe this allegation was made by a former Iraqi prisoner. They may not be the smartest people on the planet, but they are learning to play the media game real well, real quick. And of course they have their allies in this country on the left to help out their cause.

Let's not forget that the people this happened to weren't exactly the creme of Iraqi society. There were POW's, rapist and probably looter in that prison. Probably the same looters the left was screaming about running around loose lotting the museum last year. I seem to remember cries from the left of "Why don't you do something about them? Why don't you lock them up"

Remember?

I am hearing otherwise.

Keith Olberman had some former military trainer on there who made a comment about the fake pictures, the links we have been looking at, and then said that there may be pictures and evidence of rapes and other atrocities.

CNN was reporting similar rumors as well as MSNBC.....

I don't want to go into what they all said, but jesus christ this seems to just get worse.

I am steadfast in my stance. This still doesn't change anything, but a feeling of hopelessness is starting to come over me.

I am not buying into all this crap, but if more stuff comes out that can be proved, everything we have worked for these past few years is negated in the world communities eyes.

I think it would be safe to assume at that point, that if we were ever on our own at any point, we would be 100000 times that sould such things happen.....

[NASMTrainer]

I didn't read every post in this thread so I don't know if this has been said but in the 7th picture down, the guy is holding a L-85A1, that is not an American weapon. It's British.

[chomerics]

Originally posted by Sarge

I'm about as in the dark as the rest of you. There were rumors going around last year about prisoners beng roughed up, but to be honest, nobody thought it was anything like this.

I can believe the baton part, and I can believe some were shot while trying to escape or incitng a riot. Like I said, this wasn't the creme of society in these jails, these were hard core radicals and/or general riff raff criminals.

The gang rape thing I have a hard time with. As has been shown this week, there are some dipsh!ts in the military, but I just don't believe a group of people would stand around and watch that happen. Which leads to one of my many questions;

Where the hell were the NCO's during all this?

Sarge, again thanks for the reply.

I inderstand your beliefs and I know where your're coming from. I grew up in a military familly, so I know some of the inner turmoil your're goiing through now. I definately feel your pain

[Sarge]

Originally posted by IAMBG

I am hearing otherwise.

Keith Olberman had some former military trainer on there who made a comment about the fake pictures, the links we have been looking at, and then said that there may be pictures and evidence of rapes and other atrocities.

If there are rapist among this bunch, then they need to be shot after their Court Marshalls

[Sarge]

Originally posted by chomerics

Sarge, again thanks for the reply.

I inderstand your beliefs and I know where your're coming from. I grew up in a military familly, so I know some of the inner turmoil your're goiing through now. I definately feel your pain

I think it may be more shocking to us in the military than it is to you civilians. Things like this just don't happen. Or aren't supposed to happen. It shakes your faith in the chain of command, which is pretty much the Bible of the military.

[Sarge]

For a small bit of levity, do any of yo dems want to claim this part of "Klinton's military"? You can have it.

[Farbod21]

Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said he wants to "prepare the public: Apparently the worst is yet to come potentially in terms of disturbing events."

He later told reporters, "The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040508/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_prisoner_abuse&cid=542&ncid=716

[Prosperity]

"I told you I'd dig it up when I have time. I wasted my time reading the koran after 9/11 and really have no desire to waste any more of my day digging up book numbers. When I have time to sit and look, I'll get it to you.

It could possibly be in a hadeth or Kitab Al-Hudud, pardon this kaffur for not being properly versed in heathen. In the meantime, here are some more woman smacking hits I had bookmarked"

Sarge, I am not a Muslim either, but that doesn't mean I don't know what is in the Koran. And what is the Kitab Al-Hudud? and how is it relevent to Islam? (I am not trying to be insolent I seriosly don't know)

[atloldskin]

Some of those pictures involve Great Britian personnel per The Atlanta Journal this morning.

[Brown 43]

Before anyone jumps the gun with this, read below. This is most likely what happened. It's long but informative, it is also from Newsmax and I know some of you Libs out there will mention that! I believe Newsmax more than some of these Islamic sites out there!

Getting a Grip on the Iraqi Prison Scandal

America's self-destructive hysteria over the Iraqi prison abuse scandal reached a fevered pitch on Friday with two finger-pointing sets of hearings on Capitol Hill.

But rather than calm the waters, the White House has only made matters worse. President Bush's orgy of apologies and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's offer to pay reparations to injured Iraqis is likely to increase, not minimize, contempt for America in Arab capitals.

Particularly offensive was the president's personal apology to Jordan's King Abdullah, whose government only days before managed to extract confessions from several al Qaida terrorists who had planned to kill 80,000 with a chemical bomb attack.

No one knows the precise methods the Jordanians used to obtain those confessions, but it's a fair bet they didn't treat their terrorist suspects to a reading of the Geneva Convention.

Needless to say, the specter of American leaders groveling before feckless allies and even despots has brought delight to the likes of Al Jazeera and it's terrorist-sympathizing readers throughout the Middle East. Not to mention delivering a gut-punch to the morale of U.S. troops currently risking their lives in Iraq, which is precisely what America's enemies at home and abroad were hoping for.

It's long past time for the U.S. to get a grip - and realize that we're in the fight of our lives with people who viciously murdered 3,000 of our neighbors in the heart of America's cultural and financial capital.

If the U.S. is serious about winning, it can't collapse into a convulsion of self doubt and recrimination every time a probable terrorist claims he was mistreated by his U.S. captors.

Instead of apologizing for the actions of troops who have been dispatched to a Middle Eastern hellhole half-a-world-away to keep the wolf from our door, the Bush administration should get off the defensive and begin to put this over-hyped episode in perspective.

A few points should be emphasized:

* The overwhelming majority of inmates at the Abu Ghriab prison were suspected of having participated in or having knowledge of attacks against U.S. soldiers. Very few of the prisoners were common street criminals.

* The photographs of prisoners being abused were taken at a cellblock known as "The Hard Site," where the worst and most dangerous were being detained.

* To date, there's no evidence whatsoever that any of the prisoners depicted in humiliating photos suffered anything more than embarrassment.

* At least two of the abused prisoners have embarked on a whirlwind tour of media interviews. And one even says he'd like to come to live in the homeland of his "torturers," the good old USA.

* None of the photos released to the media so far show anything like what has been alleged in anti-Bush administration media reports, which have ballyhooed allegations of forcible sodomy and even murder with little evidence to back the claims up.

* The murder charges: Two allegations of murder have been reported so far. The first is apparently based on an incident detailed in the Taguba report, which chronicles a prison riot during which suspected terrorists hurled rocks at U.S. military guards.

One soldier drew his weapon and fired in what appears to be an act of self defense, killing a suspected terrorist inmate. The soldier was charged with using excessive force and was dismissed with what was described in press accounts as "a less than honorable discharge."

* The other charge of murder refers to an Iraqi detainee who reportedly died after being grilled by a CIA interrogator. No further details of this case have been made public, including what type of intelligence the suspect was believed to be withholding or whether there was any provocation.

* The Taguba report also details several prison uprisings by suspected terrorists, some of whom had obtained weapons from Iraqi guards recruited by U.S. authorities. U.S. guards were repeatedly injured in these altercations, with at least one shootout in a jail cell reported. [under these circumstances, humiliation and intimidation tactics might have been employed to keep suspected terrorist inmates too disoriented and demoralized to mount more prison attacks]

* It's worth reminding Americans about the case of Col. Alan West, who foiled a terrorist attack against his unit by extracting critical intelligence from an Iraqi detainee by firing his weapon into the air during an interrogation. Because Col. West exercised the good judgment to bend the rules of the Geneva Convention, countless U.S. soldiers in his unit - not to mention the Iraqi detainee - are alive today.

* It's also worth reminding Americans about the circumstances of the death of CIA interrogator Johnny 'Mike' Spann, the first casualty in the U.S.'s counterattack in the war on terror. Spann was killed when al Qaida prisoners jumped him and his partner during an interrogation session in Afghanistan.

* The only rape reported in any detail so far was allegedly committed by an Iraqi jail guard at Abu Ghraib who was recruited as part of the Iraqicization of the occupation. According to NBC's Jim Miklasewski, this Iraqi guard may have raped several female prisoners and perhaps even a young male detainee.

* The Taguba report includes an allegation of sodomy with a broomstick. This, along with most of the rest of the more lurid allegations being touted as gospel by the big media, is in fact based on the account of a suspected terrorist detainee. To date, no photographs have emerged to substantiate the charge, no eyewitnesses have gone public to corroborate the charge and no U.S. soldiers have confessed to committing the crime.

One wonders what prison inmates in America - or anywhere else for that matter - would say about their jailers if asked if they'd been abused.

* For some of the more partisan Democrats currently calling for Rumsfeld's head, the Bush administration would do well to remind the country that more innocents died at Waco than at Abu Ghriab - and nobody from the Clinton administration resigned back then. In fact, there was hardly any outrage whatsoever over what remains the worst law enforcement debacle in U.S. history.

The most problematic allegation by far is that GIs charged with committing the abuse were ordered to do so by military intelligence to "soften-up" detainees in advance of interrogations.

Senior U.S. officials have so far characterized the abuse as the errant actions of a few miscreant GIs - and no less a military booster than Col. Oliver North said Friday that he'd be "shocked" if military intelligence countenanced, let alone ordered, the abuse. Nevertheless, there are too many sources for this charge to dismiss it out of hand.

And if the abuse was indeed committed as part of a "softening-up" intelligence gathering process, the White House needs to confirm the facts and get the truth out as soon as possible.

Any delay will only fuel later charges of cover-up. Credible allegations that higher-ups were trying to pin blame for the scandal on grunts link Lynndie England and Charles Graner could ultimately cost President Bush critical support within the military's rank and file.

And, in fact, if prisoners were mistreated in a way that left no lasting physical injury in a bid to gain crucial intelligence and save American lives, President Bush, the military and America as a whole owes no one any apologies.

If explained properly, it's a fair bet that most Americans would accept the proposition that after 9/11, a new set of rules apply. If humiliating and intimidating suspected terrorists is what it takes to limit the number of military families who have to suffer through the horrifying news that their son and daughter has been killed in action, then so be it.

No one is countenancing a rerun of the Bataan Death March - nor, it should be noted - anything close to the way Saddam ran Abu Ghriab. In fact, most of those who now pretend to be horrified over the Iraqi prison scandal expressed not one whit of outrage over Saddam's genocide.

Meanwhile, Americans need to understand that they will not win the war on terror by playing pattycake with those who know what the terrorists' next move is.

In fact, the real atrocity would be if U.S. soldiers who have put their own lives on the line are placed at even greater risk in the name guaranteeing the human rights of folks whose stated aim is to kill tens of thousands of American civilians by any means possible.

If the American people are not prepared to do everything possible to foil future attacks against our soldiers in the field, then the troops should be withdrawn as quickly as possible.

Then, having abandoned the war on terror abroad, Americans can prepare to face the consequences - the inevitable next 9/11 attack right here in our own backyard.

[webnarc]

Originally posted by Brown 43

Before anyone jumps the gun with this, read below. This is most likely what happened. It's long but informative, it is also from Newsmax and I know some of you Libs out there will mention that! I believe Newsmax more than some of these Islamic sites out there!

What happened to these people was not right.

This is NOT a liberal vs. conservative issue, Dem vs. GOP issue or a Bush-liker vs. Bush-hater issue. What is depicted in the pictures is wrong.

I'll believe the photographs of American service personnel over the Newsmax and the Islamic sites. What is happening in those pictures is not right PERIOD.