Ralph peters: The Failure of Arab Civilization

[Riggo-toni]

April 23, 2004 -- WE shouldn't be discouraged by the recent round of violence in Iraq. It was predictable. But there were two disheartening signs:

* We should be troubled that, in this bloody month, none of the insurgents waved an alternative constitution - unless we count their perversion of the Koran. None of those violent men is fighting for freedom - they're fighting to strangle liberty in the cradle. They are, without exception, forces of reaction, not liberation, no matter how madly al-Jazeera twists the facts.

* Nor did the general Arab population or its leaders take a public stand against those who would renew their oppression. And those who will not defend their own freedom do not deserve to be defended by others.

Operation Iraqi Freedom has been, among other things, an attempt to give Arabs hope for a better future. The ultimate outcome won't be known for years, but we must prepare ourselves for the possibility that the Arabs are going to fail themselves again.

With sufficient troops, we can force Iraq's Arabs to behave. But we can't force them to succeed.

Ultimately, Iraq is not a test of the limits of American power. When necessary, we can do whatever must be done for our security and prosperity. Our use of force, in Iraq and elsewhere, has been remarkably - even foolishly - restrained.

If Iraq collapses into medieval fantasies and blood feuds, we still may be proud of having given this crippled civilization a last, great chance to heal itself. We've made mistakes, but their impact is minor compared to the unwillingness of Iraq's Arabs, Sunni or Shi'a, to build a free and civil society of their own.

In the United States, campus-generated political correctness was never more than a joke - capable of turning somber conservatives purple but unable to alter anything that matters. The far more dangerous form of political correctness is that which prevails in the dream-world of diplomacy: We pretend that all civilizations have equal merit.

But they don't. It's time to face up to the functional and moral collapse of the Arab world - if we can't describe the problem honestly, we shall never deal with it effectively.

Arab civilization has failed.

Disguised in part by the trappings of oil wealth, the Middle East has become humanity's sinkhole, less promising, if richer, than Africa. But no facade of garish hotels in the hollow states that line the Persian Gulf, and no amount of full-page advertisements funded by the Saudi government, can hide the truth any longer: The Arab Middle East has become the world's first entirely parasitical culture; all it does is to imitate poorly, consume voraciously, spit hatred, export death and create nothing.

Arab civilization offers its people no promising future, only rhetoric about a past whose achievements have been as exaggerated as they were impermanent. The present is a bloody, heartless muddle.

For all the oil wealth and expatriate university degrees, for all the hired-in expertise and Western "engagement," Arab civilization has degenerated to a point where it provides the rest of humanity nothing useful of its own design - while offering its own citizens only a culture of blame, corruption and lethargy.

It's a matter of culture, not race. In the free atmosphere of America, Arabs do as well as anyone else. All populations have their share of talent - but the oppressive environment of the Middle East enervates those individuals it does not crush entirely.

Iraq has been given a chance to break free of the thrall of a bankrupt culture, to establish a rule-of-law democratic government observant of human rights. But the chances are increasingly good that Iraq's Arabs will fail to achieve and maintain even minimal standards of good governance.

The time has not yet come, but, contrary to the sort of diplomatic wisdom that so long protected Saddam, we can walk away if Iraq's Arabs refuse to help themselves. And we can break up the country to protect the Kurds - a far better solution than turning Iraq over to the venal brokers of the United Nations.

The failure of Arab civilization in our time is the greatest such disaster in mankind's history. And, bitter though we find the proposition, the failure is so colossal that it cannot be neatly contained. Whether in Iraq today or elsewhere tomorrow, we cannot fully extract ourselves from this problem simply because our enemies won't let go.

If Iraq chooses failure, we can leave. But we'll be back, somewhere in the Middle East. Because, as we saw on 9/11, the Middle East will continue to come to us. Blame is the opium of the Arabs, and the sweetest blame for their failures is that directed at the United States (and, of course, Israel). It is our power itself, not its uses, that enrages Arabs trapped in their self-made weakness.

The oft-cited examples of the Arab world's problems, from a lack of interest in secular education and a poor work ethic to staggering corruption and the oppression of women, are symptoms, not root causes, of Arab failure. Past a certain analytical point, we come up against the wall of our own taboos - we cannot admit that the psychological premises of an entire civilization might be dysfunctional. Arab failure isn't about that which has been done to the Middle East, but that which the Middle East has done to itself.

Iraq still has a chance, if a slimmer one than we had hoped. But even if Iraq's Arabs disappoint our ambitions, our efforts will have been worthy and our losses not in vain. Intervention was unavoidable, whatever the critics say. Continued passivity in the face of the Middle East's implosion would only have made the price higher in the end.

We all would be better off were the Arabs to surprise us by building healthy, prosperous, modern societies. We would be foolish not to wish them well. But we would be equally foolish not to prepare ourselves for the consequences of their accelerating failure.

Ralph Peters is the author of "Beyond Baghdad: Postmodern War and Peace."

[Ghost of]

The entire Middle East, once oil is removed from the equation, has a GNP equal to that of Finland alone.

Try bringing up the ideas in this article and you'll get lectured by the PC nazis about some long-forgotten sin of Western civilization or how some of us might be a little rude on occasion.

Nevermind the destruction and death inflicted upon the innocents surrounding them, we've gotta score those PC points by pointing out the Crusades or the Inquisition.

[TheKurp]

Ghost,

Your point is without merit. The article specifically states that this isn't about race, it's about an oppressive culture. On what grounds would a "PC nazi" argue that the environment Middle Eastern Arabs find themselves in is not one that stifles freedom of thought, actions, and expression?

[Destino]

Don't mind ghost he can't help but turing into a anti-liberal nazi every chance he gets. He'll take shots because he seems to be trapped at a constant level of defensiveness against the dreaded liberal elite.

Moving back to the topic at hand, stating the arab culture is a failure is an over-simplification. The writer was correct when he stated that what must identify the problem if we want a chance to deal with it. The arab world is a great example of what happens when religion becomes the single ruling factor of all society. Their violence isn't all that different from the inquisitions and female hatred christians unleashed on the world long ago. The difference is we rejected theocracy and moved forward with secular society guided by, at least in part, religious morality. We allow religion is role in our lives, but we don't allow it to lead.

As long as they follow false leaders that preach violence and offer heaven in exchange they will forever fail as a people. Religion is a personal experience that should not be allowed to become a instrument of such total control.

[rdsknbill]

Originally posted by Destino

Don't mind ghost he can't help but turing into a anti-liberal nazi every chance he gets. He'll take shots because he seems to be trapped at a constant level of defensiveness against the dreaded liberal elite.

Moving back to the topic at hand, stating the arab culture is a failure is an over-simplification. The writer was correct when he stated that what must identify the problem if we want a chance to deal with it. The arab world is a great example of what happens when religion becomes the single ruling factor of all society. Their violence isn't all that different from the inquisitions and female hatred christians unleashed on the world long ago. The difference is we rejected theocracy and moved forward with secular society guided by, at least in part, religious morality. We allow religion is role in our lives, but we don't allow it to lead.

As long as they follow false leaders that preach violence and offer heaven in exchange they will forever fail as a people. Religion is a personal experience that should not be allowed to become a instrument of such total control.

Destino,

Aside from the personal shot that you took at Ghost..

That had to be one of the inciteful things that I've ever seen you post.

And here I thought that you were just the "Anti-Kilmer17"

:applause:

[DeaconBlue]

I wonder if Bill meant "insightful"?

[thew]

Destino good post. I would just like to add my two cents here..

Destino

stating the arab culture is a failure is an over-simplification.

I agree. Economically most "cultures" even historically important cultures would be considered failures next to ours. Also not too many cultures value economics as much as Americans do. When you drop economics from the picture the "value" of a culture becomes much more muddled. As you say labeling a culture a failure for any set of reasons is an over-simplification. Cultures by definition usually don't agree on what is most important that's why sociology drove me nuts in school...

Destino

The arab world is a great example of what happens when religion becomes the single ruling factor of all society.

I would agree and disagree. I would agree that coming from a western slant you are totally correct. In Western history unchecked power of religion became the driving force behind stagnation, corruption, and despair in an age which we now refer to as the dark ages. In our history it was nationalistic leaders who drove religious reform through their state powers encouraging church schisms in what we know as the Reformation. Thus westerners believe secular governments tend to be the best.

From the Arab perspective, they were in their golden age when we were in our Dark ages. Greek learning survived in their culture as our ancestors were burning the classics as pagan texts. The Moslem faith which reached it's zenith in their golden age didn't morph into the repressive overlord of western experience. The Moslem empire was destroyed in their golden age by the Mongols before that could happen. Unlike Western experience it wasn't Moslem religion, which repressed them but rather secular leaders. As such it was the Moslem religious leaders who where the reformers who spoke up against the oppression, corruption, and stagnation.

Thus they experienced no Reformation in the western sense; but a reverse reformation for the last several hundred years where the religious leaders represented their communities in dialogs with their governments. That’s where these Moslem Clerics derive their power. Historically speaking they're the reformers and the otherwise none representitive governments are the objects of there reform.

If you live under a dictatorship/monarchy or otherwise none representative government your local mulah is your voice and the voice of your community. A powerful "popular" representitive who you speak too and who speaks to you five times each and every day! ( prayer time) The voice of the people as it were. Arab representation. It just doesn't seem that way from what we hear because we hear and are affected by the extreme positions which are very well documented in the west.

I disagree with you when you suggest that religion is "the single ruling factor of ( Arab ) society." There are no Arab countries controlled by religion. And yet in some countries like Saudi Arabia religion has become just as important and relevent as the government. But not many Arab countries are as pious as Saudi Arabia.

Destino

Religion is a personal experience that should not be allowed to become a instrument of such total control.

I would agree with you that one of the many hard lessons our founding fathers learned was faith-based governments in the absence of reason are eventually repressive.

I wonder what riggo-toni would think if he applied the same argument to the State of Israel? A country founded and maintained upon religious lines. I wonder if the author

would consider them a failure? Economically one could argue they are. Culturally, intellectually, communally and certainly militarily the argument falls short. As you say the original premise is an oversimplification of many complex issue....

[Mad Mike]

You said:

I disagree with you when you suggest that religion is "the single ruling factor of ( Arab ) society." There are no Arab countries controlled by religion.

Besides the fact that you ignore Iran as a direct example, ALL arab nations are ruled by Islam because the people are taught to put Islam before all else, including loyalty to their country. That's reality.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by TheKurp

Ghost,

Your point is without merit. The article specifically states that this isn't about race, it's about an oppressive culture. On what grounds would a "PC nazi" argue that the environment Middle Eastern Arabs find themselves in is not one that stifles freedom of thought, actions, and expression?

TheKurp(and Destino)

I didn't make a comment about race!

Look, both you guys, I actually have discussions OUTSIDE of this forum, you know and what I was reacting to was what people have said to me when I calmly attempted to describe some of the pathologies in Arab culture and how this simply feeds the jihadist mindset(but it's not necessary for them to be jihadis, as Arab nationalist regimes aren't worlds better)

So, instead of Destino ****ing that I'm being defensive, maybe he can at least give me the credit that I've had very RECENT discussions with people that show me that a ton of leftists are more interested in doing a tit-for-tat when discussing the pathologies of that culture. "Well, what about ____ in the US/West?" is what I get, more than an elaborate dance through the facts and observations about how the culture can change and how it got to be what it is.

[Destino]

I give you credit buddy.

[thew]

quote: Thew

I disagree with you when you suggest that religion is "the single ruling factor of ( Arab ) society." There are no Arab countries controlled by religion.

quote: Mad Mike

Besides the fact that you ignore Iran as a direct example,

Iran isn't an Arab country but rather a Persian country. Different culture, different history, different argument….. I would agree with you the author of the original article probable didn’t know the difference…

quote: Mad Mike

ALL arab nations are ruled by Islam because the people are taught to put Islam before all else, including loyalty to their country. That's reality.

That's a nice assertion but the facts just don't support your statements. Arab countries like Egypt, Syria, Libya, Morocco, Saudi, Yemen, even Iraq under Sadam are governed by secular leaders. The people pay taxes, are governed, and serve in the militaries of secular leaders. None of these governments include a religious component. Rather the religious leaders are vocal advocates for their communities too the government. It’s just the way their governments evolved.

It's just false to suggest that these Arab governments are theocratic in nature.

Religion in these countries is used by the people to make their voices heard not the opposite as you assert.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by Destino

I give you credit buddy.

OK, then, that's all I ask.

[Prosperity]

Mad Mike, Iranians are not Arabs, don't refer to us as Arabs again, that goes to everyone else too.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by Liberty

Mad Mike, Iranians are not Arabs, don't refer to us as Arabs again, that goes to everyone else too.

:laugh:

I didn't even see that, I can't believe someone made that mistake!

I was just talking yesterday and the moderate and even the lefty I were talking to, all immediately knew not to make that mistake and even talked about how it's Arab "holy mercs" beating up on young people right now.

[Prosperity]

As for Arabs I find that the Arabs I have met have loyalty to Islam first, then a distant second the Arab race but patriotism as a force in their hearts doesn't really exist.

Arab Culture/Civilization is in trouble and for whatever reason it ended up this way I don't think anyone can argue that it has matched other cultures in any way. Economically mediocre only because of oil, no arts to speak of, no tradition of human rights, nothing of value has been contributed to the world for almost 800 years.

I don't know whats the problem, it could be religion, it could be Arab Culture.

[Prosperity]

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

:laugh:

I didn't even see that, I can't believe someone made that mistake!

I was just talking yesterday and the moderate and even the lefty I were talking to, all immediately knew not to make that mistake and even talked about how it's Arab "holy mercs" beating up on young people right now.

Its ironic really, most Iranians hate Arab culture, yet we are always being mistaken for Arabs. Thus is the life of an ex-pat.

[Ghost of]

I've read that pre-Islamic Arab culture, while primitive had hints of scientific and artistic achievements but that once Islam had been spread and the outward "jihad" and purification turned INWARD, that this resulted in stagnation of the society.

It must always be pointed out that a great number of the doctors and mathematicians and the like in Islamic society were, in fact, Jews.

I also read an acount of a devout Arab Muslim visiting a village of...Berbers? can't remember. Anyways, he spoke of how, essentially, the women were freer and treated more fairly as if this were a weakness.

It's my belief that Arab culture was far less patriarchal way back, and that much of what Muhammad says is an attempt to overthrow that system. Allah is derived from Christian and Jewish theology( El-ohim and Al-lah) and from Arab pagan traditions, hence the persistent presence of jinn throughout pre-Islamic Arab culture and in the Koran. The subjugation of women, in my opinion, does nothing but hinder that society. There's a difference between women having a less prominent role in certain aspects of the civilization and how women are treated there(by and large, though there are exceptions)

I'd have to give some more thought to constructing an explanation of why that is relevant, but it could be done.

[Die Hard]

Originally posted by Liberty

Mad Mike, Iranians are not Arabs, don't refer to us as Arabs again, that goes to everyone else too.

Can someone give me a little background info? Honestly. Why is that?

[Ghost of]

DH

What do you mean, background on why Persians hate being referred to as Arabs or why people assume they are?

I'll let Liberty get into the full details, but I can say that many Persians, even Muslims, do not look favorably upon Arab conquest of their land and subjugation of their original culture to the religion of an alien land.

Anyways, Arab Muslims are slaughtering Black Muslims in Sudan. This is not a surprise as blacks are spoken of negatively in the Koran. I'll do a new post on it though.

[thew]

I don't want to interrupt the redneck party or anything but just so anybody reading this thread for the first time will know that we all don't wear white bed sheets or anything let me chime in here.

Why Iranians or Persians don't like Arabs. I can think of two reasons....

1) Iran just fought a decade long war with Iraq an Arab country who had the backing at the time of Kuwait, Saudi, and Egypt ( most of the Arab world). Oh and before that decades long war Iran and Iraq had at least two other wars over the same disputed territory in the last few decades.

2) While Persians are Moslems they are Shiite Moslems and most Arabs are Sunni Moslems. They aren't the same and historically fought quite a bit over the differences. Much like ancient Catholics and Protestants did.

The fact that you guys got an Iranian to say he agrees with you that Arabs haven't contributed anything to humanity is like getting a Skins fan to admit nothing good comes out of Dallas. A tad bit biased.

As for the original intent of this thread it's raciest bunk. That's two things. Racist as in prejudiced. And Bunk as in totally untrue.

I know you guys don't really know much math but Arabs gave us our numbering system... "Arabic Numerals"? Ever wonder why we count in "Arabic" Numerals? It's because Europeans learned math from Arab Scholars. That's right. Folks in Western Europe learned to count from those smart folks to the south who had a real civilization when our ancestors where in the Dark Ages post Rome.

Arabs invented the concept of Zero.... The absence of anything to count. Western Europeans learned the concept of Zero from Arabs...

Where the Greeks had concentrated on geometry, the Arabs invented algebra. Where the Egyptians had developed methodologies for calculation that fell just short of my definition of algebra, and the Greeks had broken the first ground in this field, the Arabs ploughed it and made it fertile.

Algebra.. Arabs invented Algebra. The definitive work, written by Muhammed ibn Musa, also known as al-Khwarizmi, introduced the Arabic term "al-jabr" to the European world, which mispronounced it as "algebra". Al-Khwarizmi himself was the source of our word "algorithm". Western civilization did not catch up with Arabic mathematics and science for eight hundred years.

And for you deep thinkers posting in this thread No Algebra and No Copernicus, No Galileo, No Newton with Calculus. That pretty much puts Arabs at the foundation of our western society.

This doesn't even address that All Classical Greek and Roman thought was preserved in the Arab world when our Western European ancestors where burning the texts as pagan. No Arabs, No Aristotle, Socrates, Plato or Democratus. Democratus... Democracy?? get it no Democracy without Arabs? No Republic either.

Arabic thinkers ignited the entire Renaissance in Western Europe. Haven't even talked about Medicine, astronomy, engineering, the concept of public literacy or religious tolerance all of which were pioneered by the Arabs.......

Anyway never mind my rant. Back to your cave drawings..

[Ancalagon the Black]

Just some minor points of clarification/correction:

1) Persians and Arabs are two different races (the fact that they're culturally different is ancillary)

2) Indians invented HINDU-Arabic numerals (the Europeans learned them from Arab traders who had been to India)

3) Indians invented zero (at the same time as the Maya, interestingly enough)

[Guest 979guy]

Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black

Just some minor points of clarification/correction:

And al-Khwarizmi wasn't an Arab but rather a Persian, native of Khwarizm.

[Sarge]

Originally posted by thew

I don't want to interrupt the redneck party or anything but just so anybody reading this thread for the first time will know that we all don't wear white bed sheets or anything let me chime in here.

Why Iranians or Persians don't like Arabs. I can think of two reasons....

1) Iran just fought a decade long war with Iraq an Arab country who had the backing at the time of Kuwait, Saudi, and Egypt ( most of the Arab world). Oh and before that decades long war Iran and Iraq had at least two other wars over the same disputed territory in the last few decades.

2) While Persians are Moslems they are Shiite Moslems and most Arabs are Sunni Moslems. They aren't the same and historically fought quite a bit over the differences. Much like ancient Catholics and Protestants did.

The fact that you guys got an Iranian to say he agrees with you that Arabs haven't contributed anything to humanity is like getting a Skins fan to admit nothing good comes out of Dallas. A tad bit biased.

As for the original intent of this thread it's raciest bunk. That's two things. Racist as in prejudiced. And Bunk as in totally untrue.

I know you guys don't really know much math but Arabs gave us our numbering system... "Arabic Numerals"? Ever wonder why we count in "Arabic" Numerals? It's because Europeans learned math from Arab Scholars. That's right. Folks in Western Europe learned to count from those smart folks to the south who had a real civilization when our ancestors where in the Dark Ages post Rome.

Arabs invented the concept of Zero.... The absence of anything to count. Western Europeans learned the concept of Zero from Arabs...

Where the Greeks had concentrated on geometry, the Arabs invented algebra. Where the Egyptians had developed methodologies for calculation that fell just short of my definition of algebra, and the Greeks had broken the first ground in this field, the Arabs ploughed it and made it fertile.

Algebra.. Arabs invented Algebra. The definitive work, written by Muhammed ibn Musa, also known as al-Khwarizmi, introduced the Arabic term "al-jabr" to the European world, which mispronounced it as "algebra". Al-Khwarizmi himself was the source of our word "algorithm". Western civilization did not catch up with Arabic mathematics and science for eight hundred years.

And for you deep thinkers posting in this thread No Algebra and No Copernicus, No Galileo, No Newton with Calculus. That pretty much puts Arabs at the foundation of our western society.

This doesn't even address that All Classical Greek and Roman thought was preserved in the Arab world when our Western European ancestors where burning the texts as pagan. No Arabs, No Aristotle, Socrates, Plato or Democratus. Democratus... Democracy?? get it no Democracy without Arabs? No Republic either.

Arabic thinkers ignited the entire Renaissance in Western Europe. Haven't even talked about Medicine, astronomy, engineering, the concept of public literacy or religious tolerance all of which were pioneered by the Arabs.......

Anyway never mind my rant. Back to your cave drawings..

But what, aside from oil, has the arab'islamic culture given to humanity in say the last thousand years?

[thew]

1) Persians and Arabs are two different races (the fact that they're culturally different is ancillary)

Recent and ancient wars and that they have diometrically opposed religous views, is central to explaining why a modern Iranian would speak ill of the Arab race. That they are two different races isn't even ancelary it's irrelevent. Chineese and Persians are two different races and that information is also irrelevent.

2) Indians invented HINDU-Arabic numerals (the Europeans learned them from Arab traders who had been to India)

I've never heard of HINDU-Arabic numerals only "Arabic Numerals" and hindu or Indian numerals. Modern day Saudi Arabic for example uses Indian numberals due to the Mongol Invasion**. Indians numerals are older and use the same theory which I guess is your point..... ( ten based, as opposed to Roman or Greek numberals ) But Indian numberals are not the same characters as Arabic numerals which we use today and which were passed to us through Arabic texts.

** The Mongols invaded The Arabic Empire rather than Western Europe because they didn't see anything of value in Western Europe at the time.......

3) Indians invented zero (at the same time as the Maya, interestingly enough)

Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khawarizmi, who flourished under the Abbasid state at Baghdad through 813-833 A.D., was a mathematician, astronomer and geographer. He was perhaps one of the greatest mathematicians who ever lived. His work on algebra was outstanding, as he not only initiated the subject in a systematic form but he also developed it to the extent of giving analytical solutions of linear and quadratic equations, which established him as the founder of Algebra. The very name "Algebra" has been derived from his famous book "Al-Jabr wa-al-Muqabilah." Thus, he explained the use of zero, a numeral of fundamental importance developed by the Arabs. Several of his books were translated into Latin in the early 12th century. According to Parshall[3], "Al-Khwarizmi systematically presented the algebraic solutions, known since Babylonian times, of particular cases of these equations and then provided geometric justification for his algebraic rules." The English word "algorithm" derives from the Latin form of al-Khwarizmi's name.

Yaqub ibn Ishaq al-Kindi (801-873 A.D.), a Philosopher and Mathematician, who wrote many works on arithmetic, including: the numbers, relative quantities, measuring proportion and time, and numerical procedures. He also wrote on space and time.

Ahmed ibn Yusuf al-Misri (835-912 A.D.), his works on ratio and proportion, and geometry of circles were translated into Latin.

Al-Fadl ibn Hatim al-Nayrizi (865-922 A.D.) employed principles of trigonometry to calculate geographical directions.

Banu Musa brothers (Ja'far Muhammad, Ahmad and al-Hasan (sons of) Musa ibn Shakir) (9th century A.D.) Ja'far Muhammad worked on geometry and astronomy while al-Hasan worked mainly on geometry and wrote "The elongated circular figure" which is a work on the "ellipse." Ahmad worked mainly on mechanics and wrote on pneumatic devices. The most studied work written by the Banu Musa is "The Book of the Measurement of Plane and Spherical Figures." This work became well known through the translation into Latin.

Ibrahim ibn Sinan ibn Thabit ibn Qurra (908-946) who introduced a method of integration in studying the quadrature of the parabola. His work was a continuation of his grandfather's (Thabit ibn Qurra) research work. He also studied the motions of the Sun.

Abu Mansur ibn Tahir al-Baghdadi (980-1037 A.D.) gave an interesting discussion of "abundant numbers," "deficient numbers," "perfect numbers" and "equivalent numbers."

[Ghost of]

thew,

Some of us are actually non-white or some other nationality that would PRECLUDE us from the KKK, jackass.

Secondly, one can have an opinion on a culture, like say the Aztec eating a bunch of people and using oppressed neighboring tribes as food sources, without being a racist.

God, you're an effing prick.