Skins vs. Eagles, who has the edge?

[Skins_Junkie]

There have been a couple recent threads talking about just how the Redskins Stack up to the Eagles in the last week. I browsed them a bit and finally decided to post my own analysis, since its a slow news day....Just wondering if people agree or disagree with me...(I hope some of those EAGLE FANS that were lurking and posting some of the threads I was talking about, respond too)

COMPARING THE CURRENT REDSKINS TO THE EAGLES - who has the edge ON PAPER???

Analysis: (I tried my best not to be a homer and be completely fair...it was tough!)

QB: Brunell/Ramsey vs. McNabb

WINNER = EAGLES

(McNabb, despite some accuracy & injury problems = BIG-TIME PLAYMAKER!)

RB: Portis/Betts/Cartwright vs. Westbrook/Buckhalter/(Rookie or FA or Mahe)

WINNER = SKINS

(even if Eagles draft Alexander or pick-up a decent vet...PORTIS, despite size = BIG-TIME PLAYMAKER!)

TE: Kozlowski/Rasby/Royal/(Possible Rookie) vs. Lewis/Smith

WINNER = EAGLES

(KW2 could change the edge here if drafted, but in my book...a rookie is a rookie, plus i like LJ Smith alot - eagles edge)

WR: Coles/Gardner/McCants/Thrash vs. Owens/Pinkston/Mitchell

WINNER = EVEN

(and that is just out of respect to cry-baby TO! Personally I still think Skins have the more solid group, but Eagles WRs tend to over-acheive)

OL: Samuels/Jansen/Thomas/Dockery/Raymer vs. Thomas/Runyan/Welbourn/Mayberry/Fraley

WINNER = EVEN

(Don't be fooled by the Skins OL preformance of last year...that was the Spurrier System making them look so bad, with Coach Bugel back I'm tempted to give the edge to the skins too...but we'll just wait and see)

DL: Upshaw/Wynn/Daniels/Griffin/Noble/Haley (or Some June 1st cut: FA addition) vs. Kearse/Kalu/McDougle/Simon/Walker

WINNER = EAGLES

(No contest here, we can sign a STUD after June 1st and I still wouldn't be swayed! Kearse will be BIG this year!)

LB: Arrington/Washington/Mitchell/(Barrow - TBD) vs. Jones/Simoneau/Wayne

WINNER = SKINS

(Easy win for the skins, ESPECIALLY if Barrow comes thru! Trotter is out.)

DB: Smoot/Springs/Bauman/Harris/Brown vs. Sheppard/Brown/Hood

WINNER = EVEN

(Because Springs is an unknown at this point and although we lost Champ, Eagles still lost two savy vets themselves)

S: Bowen/Ohalete/(Rookie) vs. Lewis/Dawkins

WINNER = EAGLES

(even if we drafted Taylor (Which I'm in favor of)...Dawkins if enough to give Eagles the edge here)

KR: Morton vs. Westbrook

WINNER = EVEN

PR: Morton vs. Westbrook

WINNER = EVEN

K: Hall vs. Akers

WINNER = EVEN

(Akers had a rough year - last year, he's probably a more realible kicker, However, Hall held his own with ease last year and probably was the skins MVP...for that)

P: Tupa vs. Johnson

WINNER = SKINS

COACH: GIBBS vs Reid

WINNER = SKINS

(3 Superbowl Trophys to 3 NFC Championship losses...GIBBS Trumps AR!)

TOTAL SCORE: Redskins = 4 / Eagles = 4

NOW lets hope we're the Eagles match on the feild...unlike the last few years!

I can't wait till August!

[WallyG3]

Until we actually beat them, you have to concede that they have the edge.

That shall soon change though!! :koolaid:

[skin_finatic]

I think our corners are way better than theres LOL. Morton is a better returner than westbrook IMO. cmon man we are definitly the winner in wideouts.... they may have t.o but thier other wideouts are below average at best.

[Number5]

Well.......I agree with some of your picks, but others i don't.

QB: Injury Problems? Broken Foot, Broken Thumb in 4 years and missed a total of 6 games in 5 seasons.......and even with those injuries, he still played and in the Broken Foot game established himself as one of the toughest QB's in football.

EDGE : Agree

RB: Portis is a TRUE PLAYMAKER.......but don't forget that this will only be Westbrook's 3rd year. Last year was only his first full season even being used. He sat the bench most of 2002 learning from Mitchell. Though I give a slight edge to Portis, lets just see what Westy can do a full season without any nicks or bruises. All he did was have 11 total TDs in playing about 11 complet games.

EDGE: SKINS

WR: Agreed!

OL: You can blame the blocking scheme for the Redskins play.....but I will blame the Eagles injuries. Remember that Mayberry missed half the season while Welbourne missed at least 6 games as well. When fully healthy the Eagles have 3 proven Pro Bowlers and a potential in Welbourne.

EDGE = Eagles

TE/DL/LB: AGREE!

DB: During the 9 game winning streak that included the Skins, Cowboys, Giants, Panthers, Jets, etc.....the corners starting for the Eagles were Shep and Brown. They have been paired together since Day 1 where as Smoot is going to be without his buddy Champ for the first time. Chemistry is very important in the secondary (just look at the days when Vincent, Taylor, and Dawkins roamed) Communication is the key. Plus, the fact the T.O. has historically posterized Springs could be a problem.

EDGE : Eagles

S: Agree.....but don't forget that Lewis has the potential to be better than Dawkins! Its very very very true. Michael Lewis is the reason why the defense didn't completely fall apart. With a year under his belt, look for Lewis to break out of the shadow of Dawkins and give us the one of the nasitiest FS/SS combos in the league, if not the best.

PR: Gotta give to Westbrook! All he did was lead the NFC in punt return yards and touchdowns. All you have to do is ask a Giants fan who is better!

EDGE= Eagles

KR: Morton is better....Westbrook won't return kickoffs, that will be Reno's job!

EDGE= SKINS

K: Akers dude......can't bet against a Black Belt! The best pressure kicker in sports!

EDGE= Eagles

P: Agree

Coaching : Interesting. If you base it on the past, well you can say that Reid has a ring too! He did QB coach Favre in 96 and 97. If you talk about RIGHT NOW, Reid has gotten the Birds to 3 straight NFCC Games even though they lost, that's one hell of an accomplishment when you consider the Birds average losing 2 pro bowlers on defense a year!

EDGE: Toss-Up......80's-90's Gibb....but 2000-2004 Reid

I got

Eagles = 8

Skins = 4

Just some thoughts.......great post though!

[Skeletor The Invincible]

Yeah, I'd have to say the Eagles have the edge. They got some major additions to that team. Owens and Kearse should help them a great deal. Although I hate Owens with a passion, he has a lot of talent, and Kearse doesn't even need to be discussed.

[Bazooka Tooth]

Originally posted by WallyG3

Until we actually beat them, you have to concede that they have the edge.

That shall soon change though!! :koolaid:

I agree. Offseason moves need to translate into wins.

[Nighthawk]

As much as I like John Hall, Akers is better than him by a long shot. Sorry.

Like someone else said, until we beat the Eagles they have a considerable edge against us.

[Zen-like Todd]

This just in. Offenses play defenses, not other offenses. Same goes for defenses.

[Henry]

Todd, we're bored. let it go.

Number 5, I don't have a big problem with any of your analysis really, but it's a slow day here and I've got some time to kill, so I'm going to address one thing.

RB: Portis is a TRUE PLAYMAKER.......but don't forget that this will only be Westbrook's 3rd year. Last year was only his first full season even being used. He sat the bench most of 2002 learning from Mitchell. Though I give a slight edge to Portis, lets just see what Westy can do a full season without any nicks or bruises. All he did was have 11 total TDs in playing about 11 complet games.

Don't you forget that this will only be Portis's third year as well, so I wouldn't use youth/inexperience as an excuse for Westbrook not becoming the established franchise back that Portis has become. In addition, Portis has 31 TDs in 29 games. It's one thing to put up TDs as a spot duty guy (Hell, even Skip Hicks could do that) but it's an entirely different matter scoring TDs at such an amazing clip as The Man. There is no slight edge here. This is a huge edge for the Skins.

[Art]

Number5,

You do yourself quite a disservice when you give Portis only a "slight" advantage over your running backs because you really can't wait to see Westbrook relied upon more. The fact of the matter is, the difference here is astounding and hard to quantify with words less than immense, tremendous, overwhelming or infinite.

The Eagles can't even be said to have a single player capable of carrying the load for them. You certainly have something substantially greater than a SLIGHT disadvantage when compared to Portis at this point. As with all things, time may bring about some differences. Until it does, this is how you assess the situation and failing to do so calls into question every word you speak.

I'm not sure how I'd rate the units. As Todd said, the comparison might be better offense versus defense and vice versa, but, the way such comparisons are generally done is the way it's done here.

At QB, I think McNabb is a less accurate passer than Brunell. Far less efficient typically. It's certainly very plausible that McNabb will be outperformed in every statistical category passing by Brunell. The intangibles McNabb brings in terms of leadership and the ability to rally his team around him are harder to measure. Of course, the fact that McNabb is in an offense that doesn't suit his skills all that well hurts him. I'd give the advantage to the Eagles, but you can't do so statistically, so you are doing it more in your impression that intangibles favor McNabb so greatly that he surpasses a limited statistical ability.

This brings us quickly to receiver where you can easily counter that with Owens, you might expect improvement by McNabb. Perhaps so. But, Owens has played with a QB who is more accurate, more efficient and built for the West Coast Offense in ways McNabb is not. It's unlikely Owens can improve his level of play and while he gives McNabb a legitimate No. 1 receiver, you could reasonably expect him to decline in production by being paired with McNabb rather than a QB who's more efficient in the offense like Garcia. That Coles largely outperformed Owens despite a broken toe and horribly designed offense also means the advantage at top receiver might be different than many expect. The Redskins have a clear advantage overall at receiver however. Even if you give a close call advantage to Owens, Gardner is better than Pinkston and Thrash is better than Mitchell and Thrash is our No. 5 guy now.

Offensive line is an interesting conversation as well. At this point in their careers, I'd take Jansen over Runyan, as most would. I happen to like Thomas better than Mayberry but I could understand an argument against that. Samuels is a better skilled and generally higher thought of left tackle than Thomas. I don't think you can seriously think Welbourne is really a Pro Bowler waiting to happen especially when you consider his name has been mentioned in trade talks. In all, given the Redskins scheme this year and superior coaching from Bugel, the advantage here both as starters and depth right now would go the Redskins way.

Tight end is clearly tilted your way, though we have better blockers so, who knows.

Defensively the Eagles have a huge advantage along the defensive line both in starting quality and depth. Linebacker tilts heavily toward Washington where safety tilts as heavily toward Philly.

At corner you clearly have an advantage in Washington. Far superior depth with Brown and Harris, coupled with starters who have proven a great deal more than yours. You don't get to lose the guys who were your starting corners except when injured and think you have an advantage at this position over just about anyone. If Dallas lands ANY breathing body at corner the Eagles enter the year with the weakest corners in the division without question.

Perhaps they'll play well enough to merit some improvement by the end of the year. But, again, it is embarrassing to rate this in your favor. It's even more embarrassing for a Redskin fan to call this even.

Kicker goes to the Eagles, punter goes to the Skins, punt returner goes to the Eagles and kick returner goes to the Skins.

Coaching is only a question because you don't know how long it will take for Gibbs to return to form IF he can return to form. Certainly Gibbs has proven to be a better head coach than Reid has ever shown himself to be. Williams is on par with Johnson as a coordinator for the other side. The depth of talent on the staff with Blanche and Lindsay giving the Skins two more previous defensive coordinators and Bugel giving another head coach simply gives the Skins a pretty comfortable advantage overall coaching. If Gibbs finds his rhythm it won't even be close.

Please remember, Gibbs won bigger and better than Reid has and proved his mettle when it mattered in the playoffs where he is 16-5 in his career versus 5-4 for Reid. You don't get to sniff Gibbs' jock until Gibbs proves to be brain-dead and overwhelmed in his return. If you're betting on that, you're going to lose money.

[Streater101]

The Eagles untill we prove we can beat them. Names on rosters mean nothing to me.

[Skins26]

If we draft Taylor we will be prepared to go into big time game against them.

[buzzlightbeer81]

if people like Sean Salsburry are right that Taylor is th ebest athlete in the draft and will be a first year pro bowler/high impact player, then if we draft him out secondary (CB's and Safties) beats the Eagles easy

[phanatic]

I'd like to add some food for thought here. There's no doubt that Gibbs will make you a better team and command the respect of the players. However, Gibbs had the luxury of a time in football when free agency went the plan B route protecting your 26 best players from ever being afforded the opportunity to even sniff another contract elsewhere. Gibbs was not an overnight success when he started in Washington. He built a team in his image and over the course of many years, gained the confidence of his players. I still believe, regardless of who you purchase, it takes time to gel as a team and this doesn't happen over one season.

Yes it can be argued that todays NFL is different, it is. I'm just not convinced that wholesale changes can make immediate impacts. The Eagles still have incredible continuity. They brought in two blue chip players who fit nicely within their scheme and the time to assimilate will be miniscule. Changing entire philosophies, as well as coaches and players, takes alot longer to mesh than you would like to believe. Theres no doubt the Skins will be strong this year. I just don't see them knocking the birds off their pedestal just yet. But just yet is another question in itself. 2006 will mark a first for an NFL franchise. A payroll that has balooned its signing bonus to an all time high, 50% of the total payroll.

[Henry]

Phanatic, maybe you don't know this, but Gibbs won the Superbowl in his second season. He got back there in his third, followed by four more straight 10+ win seasons and another Superbowl victory. And this was during a time when most coaches needed a five year plan. And this during a time in which every other team was allowed to keep it's 26 best players.

He was, by any stretch of the imagination, an overnight success for his day. I think you underestimate the man.

[buzzlightbeer81]

Yea I was gonna say that Henry, in his 12? seasons with the skins Gibbs had one 1 uno seasons without a winning record, and for now Id be happy with that kinda start. Plus, if there is one player in sports who can flush a teams continuity and gel down the ****ter, its TO, no matter what he may say about how hes changed

[bubba9497]

Who has the Edge?

Indy of course Silly

[The Rook]

Skins_Junkie - props to you - this is a great thread. Some good thought went into this.

One thing left out was continuity - the Eagles have it we don't (just ask Lavar). Until we beat them on the field - they win.

BUT the game IS played on the field and not on paper

AND this is a new season.

And for the Philly fans - maybe Coach Reid can ask Coach Gibbs what it is like to win a NFC Championship when they meet.

[Pocono]

"You do yourself quite a disservice when you give Portis only a "slight" advantage over your running backs because you really can't wait to see Westbrook relied upon more. The fact of the matter is, the difference here is astounding and hard to quantify with words less than immense, tremendous, overwhelming or infinite.

The Eagles can't even be said to have a single player capable of carrying the load for them. You certainly have something substantially greater than a SLIGHT disadvantage when compared to Portis at this point. As with all things, time may bring about some differences. Until it does, this is how you assess the situation and failing to do so calls into question every word you speak."

Art...It's interesting to me that whenever a Skin's fan pitches the idea about how the team will be better we hear about system and coaching makes a difference but whenever anyone points out the fact that Shanahan and his system routinely turns middle to late draft picks into 1000 yard rushers out in Denver and how this may make murky Portis true talent level he is shouted down. I think Portis is a good back but whether he is a great back will not be determined until we see him perform away from the altitude and the Bronco system. Let's see what he does behind an OL that could only provide holes for a 4 yd per carry average last year before we give him an edge over a system and an OL that enabled it's 3 headed monster last year to produce 2400 all purpose yards and 27 TD's compared to 1900 yds and 14 TD's for Portis in Denver. True Staley is gone but the 2 who remain produced 1600 yds and 22 TD's and whether they absorb Staley's PT or another RB is drafted or signed there is no reason to believe the overall numbers will decrease.

Now it's true that during the Nixon administration Bugel was a great coach and your OL's blocking should improve but it is also true that no longer can team's virtually ignore our WR's because of the addition of Owens and this should create much more space for the running game and the short throws to the RB's. Hopefully both Westbrook and Portis will be able to do something they haven't been able to do and that is start 16 games and at the end of the season we will know the truth about Mr Portis and will have a provable answer for which team has the advantage at RB.

[method man]

lito sheppard and sheldon brown suck. sheppard is a bust. how can u say a CB corps wit a former pro bowl, a blooming starter, and 3 nickel quality CBs is worse than a CB corps wit only 3 ppl as of now?

[Art]

Originally posted by Pocono

[bArt...It's interesting to me that whenever a Skin's fan pitches the idea about how the team will be better we hear about system and coaching makes a difference but whenever anyone points out the fact that Shanahan and his system routinely turns middle to late draft picks into 1000 yard rushers out in Denver and how this may make murky Portis true talent level he is shouted down. I think Portis is a good back but whether he is a great back will not be determined until we see him perform away from the altitude and the Bronco system. Let's see what he does behind an OL that could only provide holes for a 4 yd per carry average last year before we give him an edge over a system and an OL that enabled it's 3 headed monster last year to produce 2400 all purpose yards and 27 TD's compared to 1900 yds and 14 TD's for Portis in Denver. True Staley is gone but the 2 who remain produced 1600 yds and 22 TD's and whether they absorb Staley's PT or another RB is drafted or signed there is no reason to believe the overall numbers will decrease.

Now it's true that during the Nixon administration Bugel was a great coach and your OL's blocking should improve but it is also true that no longer can team's virtually ignore our WR's because of the addition of Owens and this should create much more space for the running game and the short throws to the RB's. Hopefully both Westbrook and Portis will be able to do something they haven't been able to do and that is start 16 games and at the end of the season we will know the truth about Mr Portis and will have a provable answer for which team has the advantage at RB. [/b]

Pocono,

At issue here is not whether the Denver system under Shanahan has produced quality performances out of backs you'd call system backs. The issue is whether you're smart enough to check with Denver fans about whether that system was even in place for Portis. See, we've heard from Denver fans who've told us what type of back did well in the Denver system.

They've come to this board and let us know that the type of running back Shanahan had always had was the sort who would drift, drift, drift, then snap back in a single across the grain cut. That was their system. The line would string blocks out and cut and the first guy to fall would create a cut back lane and the back would smack it and go as far as he could.

Denver fans have told us that Portis was so good Shanahan was forced to alter the system. No longer a single cut back style because that is not what Portis was good at. It became a standard scheme where Portis would blast with that quickness into a hole and be out of it before it could close.

Now, to be fair, I can't say I know how drastically the Denver system was altered to fit Portis. I just know what Denver fans have said about it and they do know a bit more than I do and obviously than you might. I am amused by your attempt to compare Portis versus ALL of your running backs in a way that favors you.

All of your backs managed 1,612 yards rushing. Portis managed 1,591 yards rushing. All of your backs managed 340 carries. Portis managed 290 carries. And, here's the kicker. Portis wasn't the only running back in Denver either. Just like he won't be here.

Whenever an Eagle fan attempts to pretend a team without a single capable No. 1 running back is somehow solid at a position and maybe ONLY SLIGHTLY worse than a team who has a running back who generally outperformed ALL three of your backs last year, well, let me just say the conversation becomes a very simple one for a Skins fan to emerge from in tact. The same can't be said for you.

[jpgirth]

There is no comparison

Portis vs any of the eagles backs

As a matter of fact it wasn't worth this post

[Eagles_Legendz]

Originally posted by Art

Whenever an Eagle fan attempts to pretend a team without a single capable No. 1 running back is somehow solid at a position and maybe ONLY SLIGHTLY worse than a team who has a running back who generally outperformed ALL three of your backs last year, well, let me just say the conversation becomes a very simple one for a Skins fan to emerge from in tact. The same can't be said for you.

The Eagles are solid at RB. Their total rushing yards/total yards from their RBs last year in comparison, as a team, to the rest of the league, proves this. But I would not be so foolish to compare Portis to Westbrook. Clear advantage to the Skins. I will comment on one other thing you stated in a previous post Art. Thrash is worse than Mitchell. Not that it's important though.

[Art]

EL,

I like you a lot as an opposition fan, but, let's address your throwaway line about Mitchell being better than Thrash. Mitchell has been on the Eagles for three years. Thrash has been on the Eagles for three years. In that period of time Mitchell has played in 47 games. Thrash has played in 47 games and had 46 starts.

In that period of time Mitchell has had 68 receptions for 886 yards total. Thrash has had 164 catches for 2,026 yards. Over that period of time Thrash has had more yards and more receptions each year. Over that time Mitchell has been on your bench while Thrash has been starting.

Now, let me help you out here. While YOU may like to imagine Mitchell is better than Thrash, the facts of the situation lead us to one conclusion. The exact opposite is true. And do you know who agrees? The Philadelphia Eagles do. They agree. You see, THEY were the ones starting Thrash OVER Mitchell. The Eagles did that. Now, many Dallas fans come here and tell us that the guys sitting on their bench for years are actually BETTER than their own starting players over that same time, but, I tell them what I'll tell you.

Teams start the guys they think are better. It's crazy, I know, but, sometimes fans think one thing and teams do something entirely opposite in an effort to win. That seems to be the case here. May it be the case that Mitchell builds on a relatively strong close to the season to be something in the league? Perhaps.

We just know that as we type these words to each other that Thrash is better than Mitchell. But don't take my word for it. Take Reid's. Reid is the guy who let you know who was better by PLAYING one guy over the other.

[Eagles_Legendz]

Thrash was better than Mitchell in '01. Thrash was better than Mitchell in '02. Thrash has been a starter since he arrived to Philadelphia and Mitchell has been considered a bust. He entered last year with a lot to prove. He fought for and earned the slot position, and, if you watched numerous Eagles games last year, you would agree with me (I imagine) that Mitchell was the far more consistent WR. He carved a nice niche for himself in the slot.

Mitchell has only seen significant playing time one year in three, and that year he played in the slot. Thrash started each year, so there is an obvious reason why he'd put up significantly better numbers.

Statistically, of course, you are correct. Thrash was stastically better than Mitchell. But Mitchell DID play better last year, and he's younger, and he has far more potential, whereas Thrash has reached his pinnacle in my opinion. Obviously Thrash is the far superior ST player, but simply as a WR, I believe the point is debateable whether he is still a better pass catcher than Mitchell.

You're right though, Reid does decide who's going to start. And I trust A.R and his personell decisions. That's why Thrash was going to be cut this year- he is worse than FM.