Chopper Dave Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Originally posted by Posse81 My concern is the pass rush. We have all the run stopping linemen we need but the d-line looked SO bad at times, I feel like a major overhaul is in order. I could live with Chase at one tackle, but I'd really like to see us get two new ends who can get pressure. Exactly. People can keep on living in their dream world, thinking we can generate a monster pass rush with Darren Howard and Eric Hicks, or they can wake up and realize that we need some real pass rushers from FA, and that drafting Sean Taylor or KWII would not be in our best interests. I'm telling you, Kearse, Smith, Harris, and Hicks in '04. That's how we scare the sh*t out of the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 What about Courtney Brown if he is released by the Browns? I know he would be an injury risk, but he might be cheap. I thought he did a pretty good job rushing the passer when he was there. Could we get him as a third down rusher if Cleveland released him. It's not that I think he would solve our problems, but he might be a cheap fix at one position allowing us to spend the #5 elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Originally posted by dcogan1820 First of all.... no. Just no... to everything. Obviously there are more than just Titan D-Lineman in FA. We mention them because they are the best fit and most talented. Second of all, as it has been probably be said over 1000 times on this board, Ogunleye is going to cost a 1st and a 3rd, not to mention a contract almost as big as Kearse's (trust me, he will want ALOT). Third, DRuss WILL NOT BE BACK. I'm sorry. But he will not be here next year. And as for Howard being our premiere pass rusher, you forget that he isn't a premiere pass rusher. I'd like Wistrom, but only if we get Kearse or another pass rusher. The best would be drafting Harris, signing Griffin or Smith, signing Kearse, and signing another DE, like Eric Hicks or something. That's a D-Line. Don't try to pass off the crap you have up there as a defensive line. That's our line from last year with bigger names. We need a line that will get things done. We can't neglect it anymore. And as for Sean Taylor: I love him. I want to draft him. It's just that we need Udeze or Harris more. Sorry guys. C'mon man! U know Udeze and Harris aren't worth a fifth overall pick! And ya, they'll be gone by the second round! Sean Taylor is a playmaker, and we can't get anyone near his talent in FA this year. The Hicks and Wistrom are give out nearly the same producting, yet Wistrom had 2 1/2 sacks more this year. And what's wrong with D Russel! He missed one practice, and even tho being out half the season and didn't go to training camp, he way better then all our other d-line! He was a monster, and once he goes to training camp he'll be a monster again! Get him now while he's cheap or we'll jest keep saying "what if" once he's back in the pro bowl. Howard CAN be our premire pass rusher. He can 5 sacks in 8 games, he missed half the season tho. He had 8 last season, and 11 his rookie season, this is the only year he didn't play all 16 games. Despite how good curse is, that's easily 7 million against the cap. That's a third of our cap money down the drain on one player, not counting whether we re-sign champ or not. And if the have Winstrom, Hicks, Kearse/Howard, what do we need to use a first round pick on a DE for?! -------------------------------------------- 0-16, 16-0, skins fan till i die!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sick Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 I keep hearing that we shouldn't overpay. I'm sorry, but to get a pass rushing force, we are going to have to pay big bucks. It is worth it! A killer DE is not just going to fly out of Gibbs' butt. We can't get gunshy now about spending the money to solidify our DL. Kearse and draft pick or Howard and WIstrom sounds pretty good. Put Taylor in there and we have something. We've got the money. We have to spend it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Give me Smith from Tenn and I will be happier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Originally posted by OtNaz24 C'mon man! U know Udeze and Harris aren't worth a fifth overall pick! And ya, they'll be gone by the second round! Sean Taylor is a playmaker, and we can't get anyone near his talent in FA this year. The Hicks and Wistrom are give out nearly the same producting, yet Wistrom had 2 1/2 sacks more this year. And what's wrong with D Russel! He missed one practice, and even tho being out half the season and didn't go to training camp, he way better then all our other d-line! He was a monster, and once he goes to training camp he'll be a monster again! Get him now while he's cheap or we'll jest keep saying "what if" once he's back in the pro bowl. Howard CAN be our premire pass rusher. He can 5 sacks in 8 games, he missed half the season tho. He had 8 last season, and 11 his rookie season, this is the only year he didn't play all 16 games. Despite how good curse is, that's easily 7 million against the cap. That's a third of our cap money down the drain on one player, not counting whether we re-sign champ or not. And if the have Winstrom, Hicks, Kearse/Howard, what do we need to use a first round pick on a DE for?! This, my friend, is a battle of wits with an unarmed soldier.... Get ready for a somewhat long read, everyone. First off, I DON'T know that they aren't worth the 5th overall. Harris is considered one of the best DT prospects in years. Robertson last year was "Little Sapp," but this guy is little John Randle (Vikes Randle, not Old Man Randle). The reasons his numbers weren't huge are a) he (along with Dusty Dvoracek) was getting Double Teams all season, and he was out sometimes by mid-3rd quarter because OU was blowing out their opponent. To put it simply, he's got the strength, stoutness, motor, and overall run-stopping ability to be a dominating DT. He also has the burst, quickness, speed, and athleticism to not only be a dominant pass-rusher a the DT spot, but enough in some peoples' opinion to dominate at the DE spot, as well. As for Udeze, no, he hasn't reached 5th overall status yet, but after workouts, he could very well become a top-5 prospect. If we were to get him, I'd hope we could trade down a bit. Darrell Russell is a guy I'd love to have if he reformed him self off the field and returned to his previous level on the field. That may or may not happen. Him not coming back isn't my choice. Please, I wish I was a high-ranking member of the Skins's FO, but alas, I'm not. The reason I say he won't be back is simple: the FO has said he won't be back, and he's confirmed those sentiments. And where the hell do you get the idea he was better than anyone on our D-Line? He had that one FF in the Dallas game (might have been a different one, but I think it was the Dallas game), and that was it. And Howard can't be a premiere pass rusher. Quit fooling yourself. He was a few years ago. Now he's just a good DE. I'd rather have Wistrom as our main pass rusher. Where did you hear he'd have a 7 mil cap hit?!?!? We'd sign him long term. It wouldn't be 7 for another few years. We wouldn't have Wistrom, Hicks, and Kearse/Howard. We can't get Wistrom AND one of the last two guys. Wistrom would have the kind of contract where it isn't as big as Kearse's, but it still would stop us from signing another big name DL. Overall, I know where you're coming from, in spirit. You don't think we should get Kearse based on some bad info. And you don't think we should get a DL in the 1st, because you don't know what you're talking about. We need 4 guys on the line. As of now, consider what we had last year as 1 guy. Because truthfully, that's all I'd consider keeping. And probably as a backup at that. We need a major overhaul. That means FA and draft, and you could argue KWII/Taylor in the 1st and DL later on, but we need a line this year, and anyone we get besides Will Smith, BKU, or Harris won't be ready to make a difference this year. Think about it a little. We sucked last year because of coaching, true. But with our talent, come on. Spurrier wasn't that horrid. If we had gotten some kind of push up front, I'd guess that we'd have won at least 1 or 2 more games, easily. We simply have too much of a need on D-Line to not spend big money in FA (after all, it's not every year that there is a great chance of landing one of the top pass rushers, at least skill-wise, in the league) AND get some help early in the draft. Word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 There is no way that Harris is considered one of the best DT prospects in years. Unless that "one of the best DT" phrase is meant to mean a potential mid-to-high first round pick. The last few drafts have seen scads of DTs taken, and early, too. There were a bunch of studs in those groups, too. Don't go building the guy up like he's the second coming. He's a good prospect. Just maybe not as good as others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posse81 Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by dcogan1820 Exactly. People can keep on living in their dream world, thinking we can generate a monster pass rush with Darren Howard and Eric Hicks, or they can wake up and realize that we need some real pass rushers from FA, and that drafting Sean Taylor or KWII would not be in our best interests. I'm telling you, Kearse, Smith, Harris, and Hicks in '04. That's how we scare the sh*t out of the league. Right on. People see guys like Holsey and Upshaw show flashes and figure we can live with them because we have Gregg Williams now. Well, Williams isn't going to step on the field and get around Tra Thomas. Seriously, we may have had the worst d-line in football last year. Again, it may be hard to turnover all four spots on the line, but if we COULD do it, we should. The lack of puss rush by our front four put our secondary and linebackers in bad positions all year. Look what Tampa and Carolina are able to do with a solid front four. Guys like Howard and Hicks are nice, but are not a major upgrade over what we have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 dcogan, nothin against u man, but a if this Harris is such a great DT, y can't he handle double teams in college. If he can't handle double teams in college, i don't believe he'll have a chance against a double team against the professionals in the nfl. I don't mind drafting a DT, i'm sayin that between FA and the draft we should have pretty much all the DE's that we'll need(three or 4 at the most). Darrell Russel used to be a monster, and when i saw him play, it was like he was nearly half of what he used to be. That's a way better pass rush then the rest of our d-line, like he was playing for something. I wish the FO would bring him back, but like u, i have no power over the FO. Kearse would cost at the least 7 mil a year. If he's that good, then that's the amount of money u think he'd expect. If we sign champ, which i believe now more then ever is set in stone that we will, that's easily 13-14 mil that we won't be able to use for a long time, given that they'll probably both get long-term contracts. I'm saying that we should get Wistrom, Titan's Smith, please bring back Russell, and Howard not cuz i'm a no-risktaking-misinformed idiot, but because this is a very young, and talented line that can be developed into an even greater one. For cryin outloud! We have Joe Gibbs as head coach, Greg Williams(former head coach) as D-cord, and Greg Blache (former bear D-cord. regarded as HC material) as a d-line coach. We can't just take all our free cap space and use it all up in one year to get all the best players avaliable. (2000 ring a frightfully fimiliar bell?) And next time u call me misinfored, consider who u're insulting: my dad(don't ever do that again), highly regarded sports writers and anaylst, the washington post, and every memeber of the Xtremeskins site. This isn't a battle of witts. As much as u probably wish u was Art or Bubba, u're probably not even a year older then me. ------------------------------------------- 0-16, 16-0, skins fan till i die!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marhobo2 Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 "And that's not counting more money for rookies and other FAs. They just might have to clear something like $30 M. If they can do that and franchise or re-sign Kearse, you've got to tip your hat to them." **************************************************** All that, and they just fired their president of operations Jeff Diamond who took care off the cap too. Hmmm...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Williams Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by Trevor I agree. I think Howard would be cheaper and less an injury risk. Draft Sean Taylor in the 1st, resign Champ, draft a d-lineman in the 2nd or 3rd round, keep Haley, Holsey and either Upshaw or Wynn and sign both Robaire Smith and Darren Howard. That's how I would go about fixing the defense this offseason. WOW...someone who thinks like me.....but you forgot martin chase...if he doesn't start he's a h*ll of a backup.:applause: don't forget offense....come on staley!:hump: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by OtNaz24 dcogan, nothin against u man, but a if this Harris is such a great DT, y can't he handle double teams in college. If he can't handle double teams in college, i don't believe he'll have a chance against a double team against the professionals in the nfl. I don't mind drafting a DT, i'm sayin that between FA and the draft we should have pretty much all the DE's that we'll need(three or 4 at the most). Darrell Russel used to be a monster, and when i saw him play, it was like he was nearly half of what he used to be. That's a way better pass rush then the rest of our d-line, like he was playing for something. I wish the FO would bring him back, but like u, i have no power over the FO. Kearse would cost at the least 7 mil a year. If he's that good, then that's the amount of money u think he'd expect. If we sign champ, which i believe now more then ever is set in stone that we will, that's easily 13-14 mil that we won't be able to use for a long time, given that they'll probably both get long-term contracts. I'm saying that we should get Wistrom, Titan's Smith, please bring back Russell, and Howard not cuz i'm a no-risktaking-misinformed idiot, but because this is a very young, and talented line that can be developed into an even greater one. For cryin outloud! We have Joe Gibbs as head coach, Greg Williams(former head coach) as D-cord, and Greg Blache (former bear D-cord. regarded as HC material) as a d-line coach. We can't just take all our free cap space and use it all up in one year to get all the best players avaliable. (2000 ring a frightfully fimiliar bell?) And next time u call me misinfored, consider who u're insulting: my dad(don't ever do that again), highly regarded sports writers and anaylst, the washington post, and every memeber of the Xtremeskins site. This isn't a battle of witts. As much as u probably wish u was Art or Bubba, u're probably not even a year older then me. Paragraphs, my friend, paragraphs. First of all, Harris can handle double teams when he does get them. The thing is, his linemate Dusty Dvoracek (who isn't better, but is a NT) gets most of the double teams, because that is his job. Harris has been compared to John Randle, and we need someone like that on the inside. DRuss USED TO be a monster. There isn't proof that he still will be, and like I said, his not returning clearly wasn't my decision. And he didn't provide pass rush, or he would have had more playing time Kearse eventually would make that much, but his contract would be prorated. He'd have a relatively small hit the first few years, like most of our other large contracts. Not sure how to respond to your spitting out of names, because I didn't quite get what you were saying. I'll try to make some sense of it. First off, we cannot sign both Wistrom and Howard. Both contracts would be too big. While we can't afford anyone else big on the D-Line if we sign Kearse, we can't afford anyone else if we sign Howard or Wistrom either. Smith I agree with. Considering Russell WILL NOT BE BACK, that leaves another DT spot, hence Harris. Then we could get another DE, like Hicks and someone else to groom in the 3rd or 5th round. We won't be using all the room in 1 year, because the hit wouldn't come all at once, from Kearse's or Champ's. Your random recitation of our coaching staff has nothing to do with anything, and this so-called "spree" that I'm advocating is nothing like 2000, if for no other reason than the players would be younger with more upside (not to mention they are cheaper). I'm sorry for insulting all of those people. As a matter of fact, for all of the emotional distress, I'll make this peace offering. If you suffered severe mental anguish from my comments, I will personally send you a homemade batch of cookies. Scratch that. I'll bring them to your house. There. Better? And nice job bringing out the "Your probably not even a year older than me" argument, because it just points out the obvious: I'm 16 and sound, if I may drop the modesty for a minute, relatively older. You're 15, and sound like you're seven. Oh, and next time, don't admit to having your dad write an argument for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Williams Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by Posse81 The lack of "puss" rush by our front four put our secondary and linebackers in bad positions all year. is that what were lacking? man i love typos.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Thanx for peace offering, but it wasn't u that fried most of my brain cells today, it was mid-terms. I didn't say that my dad wrote one of my replys( where da hell did u get that from?), i meant that of all the people that taught me anything about football, it was him that taught me the most. And as for the Champ/Kearse contracts, eventually we will have to pay up. We're not gonna beable to pay a little bit here, little bit there, and then a huge pile of cash in one year. That's one of the main reasons stephen davis is gone. And the thought of u making cookies is hillarious( not being mean, but that's juz new to me right now. didn't now that. That also means my mom gots competition.:laugh: truce? ------------------------------------------ 0-16, 16-0, skins till i die!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Made Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 We're not gonna be able to replace all 4 slots on the D-Line. We're pretty much stuck with Wynn until next year. So on one side Wynn will be on running downs with a rookie or Upshaw on passing downs. So the redskins have about 15m to play with this offseason maybe more depending on future happenings. I can see them devoting about 10m trying to fix this D-Line. Grant Wistrom/Darren Howard (whoever is cheaper) (4-5mill) at one end, Robaire Smith (2-3mill) Cornelius Griffin (3-4mill) in the middle. If we could sign these players for 9-12m our line would be improved tenfold. I don't know if you guys actually watch games but they would be an above average unit , compared to our below average unit last year. We don't need an elite line for our secondary, which just needs a decent pash rush. Sign a 2nd round DT to rotate in and next year we can adress the other DE position. The difference between Grant Wistrom and Darren Howard is so slight its unbelievable. They are both very similiar players and whoever is cheaper should come here. They are 2nd tier DE's compared to Jevon who is a first tier. But right now we have 3rd tier DE's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by OtNaz24 Thanx for peace offering, but it wasn't u that fried most of my brain cells today, it was mid-terms. I didn't say that my dad wrote one of my replys( where da hell did u get that from?), i meant that of all the people that taught me anything about football, it was him that taught me the most. And as for the Champ/Kearse contracts, eventually we will have to pay up. We're not gonna beable to pay a little bit here, little bit there, and then a huge pile of cash in one year. That's one of the main reasons stephen davis. And the thought of u making cookies is hillarious( not beibg mean, but that's juz new to me right now. didn't now that. That also means my mom gots competition.:laugh: truce? It's cool man, just a difference of opinion, not a true insult of your intelligence (probably came across that way, but not meant that way). I like Mid-Terms, three half days. I knew what you meant, but I just misrepresented them . What can I say, manipulating words is part of debating. No offense intended. I know that Champ's and Jevon's contracts will add up eventually. But we need both of them. We can restructure when the time comes. Every issue can be resolved. Truce. We may differ in opinion, but either way, your way or my way, we'll at least be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by johnyquest We're not gonna be able to replace all 4 slots on the D-Line. We're pretty much stuck with Wynn until next year. So on one side Wynn will be on running downs with a rookie or Upshaw on passing downs. So the redskins have about 15m to play with this offseason maybe more depending on future happenings. I can see them devoting about 10m trying to fix this D-Line. Grant Wistrom/Darren Howard (whoever is cheaper) (4-5mill) at one end, Robaire Smith (2-3mill) Cornelius Griffin (3-4mill) in the middle. If we could sign these players for 9-12m our line would be improved tenfold. I don't know if you guys actually watch games but they would be an above average unit , compared to our below average unit last year. We don't need an elite line for our secondary, which just needs a decent pash rush. Sign a 2nd round DT to rotate in and next year we can adress the other DE position. The difference between Grant Wistrom and Darren Howard is so slight its unbelievable. They are both very similiar players and whoever is cheaper should come here. They are 2nd tier DE's compared to Jevon who is a first tier. But right now we have 3rd tier DE's. Agreed. But Howard/Wistrom is going to restrict us to the point where it doesn't matter if it is their contract or Jevon's larger one. It's true anything is an improvement. But why not go for one of the best natural pass rushers in the game when we can? The next chance we have might be when Freeney or Peppers hit the market, so we should jump on Kearse while he's out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Made Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 I really don't see Darren Howard leaving NO, they have so much cap space and he is their best person on D-Line. What I don't want our FO is to sign Jevon Kearse and then ignore everyone else and be like alright we got Jevon our D-Line is set. If we go for Jevon we still have to make a play at Robaire Smith and Cornelius Griffin among DT canidates. And a Rookie DT,whether 1st or 2nd being rotated somewhere the line regulary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 truce. Ya, i'm sorry too for sounding like i was in a serious mood to ring you're neck. I guess u could say i'm pretty stressed out. I'll get better after i get some more to eat and reason to beleive i didn't fail m biology exam:twitch: . Here's to a fellow skins fan and future disagrements. It still sucks knowing i'm still the youngest member on this site tho. o well, cheers dcogan --------------------------------- 0-16, 16-0, skins fan till i die!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Come on, you don't believe that, do you? They're alot of things, but plain stupid isn't one of them. They know what we need. They won't just get Kearse and expect he himself to hold the other team to just a FG and put 28 points on the board for us. They know he isn't the complete answer. They'll get us the DTs we need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeSkin Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 If Kearse returns to the Titans, only then should we pursue Darren Howard. Otherwise Smith and Kearse would be an excellent combo to rebuild our D-line. I'm not sold on Howard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 I'm on Wistrom camp on this one. He's a decent rusher and won't break our bank. Pair him up with Smith, this is a major upgrade. Then, trade down and draft Udeze to play opposite side of him. :applause: Those 2 Ends along with Wynn should be good to go. Then, draft Tubbs in the second and a TE in the third, whoever the best available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 SHUT THE F*CK UUUUUUPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Geeeeeeeeez.............:paranoid: I was only kidding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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