GB81 Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Everyone in the media loves to say that Joe Gibbs offense prominently features the tight end and that is why we will draft Winslow. I don't remember it that way. So, let's look the the Redskins best seasons under Gibbs and see how important that position was, from a pass catching perspective. (It is a given that Gibbs uses the tight end constantly in pass protection/run-blocking situations, but you don't draft Kellen Winslow at #5 for that reason). In 1991, the Skins had the #4 offense in the league, rushing for over 2000 yards and passing for over 3700. The four tight ends on the roster combined for 23 receptions. 23 receptions out of 260 total completions--less than 10% of completions went to tight ends for a total of 284 yards (out of 3771 passing yards). In 1982, (**in a 9 game season), the Skins had the #6 ranked offense in the league, passing for over 2000 yards in 9 games and rushing for over 1100. The 3 tight ends on the roster accounted for 41 of the teams 161 receptions...over 25%, and they also accounted for 412 of the teams 2100 receiving yards. Still, Clint Didier, the leading receiver among the TE's only had 27 catches. They played a valuable role, but still were not the focus of the offense. The 1983 Redskins had the #3 offense in football, passing for over 3700 yards and rushing for over 2600. The 3 TE's on the roster accounted for 46 of the teams 276 receptions and 546 of the teams over 3700 receiving yards. My point is this--tight ends do have a role in the Gibbs offense, even a major role if you consider the many different formations, two tight end sets, etc. The role, however, is not one that puts a particular premium on pass catching. This is why I think Gibbs is not interested in using this high draft pick on Kellen Winlsow. I'm still guessing that we trade down. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he is interested in having this sort of weapon at the TE spot. I think this just shows that it would be something new for his offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 The only real recieving TE Gibbs had was Clint Didder, whose best season had 41 catches. Don Warren was a great blocker, and the H-back (usually a TE) was a movable blocker, though each had some catches through out the year. I don't expect Gibbs to go too far away from his old schemes, but I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't adapt a few new wrinkles here and there, and a pass catching TE could be one of them. But I don't see us drafting KW2 at #5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OURYEAR#56 Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Finally somebody has broken down the BS. Joe never used the TE as a weapon in his offense. Kiper and the like are just grasping at straws right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posse81 Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 I agree. I'm not opposed to taking Winslow but I doubt it will actually happen. Gibbs made a comment last week that tight ends in his offense need to be very, very smart because of the constant shifting and different formations. Winslow may be an intelligent football player, but he will still be a rookie next year. I think we will use our first round pick(s) on guys who will provide more immediate impact. Winslow could provide that, but I'm not sure he could do it here. So I think Taylor may be a more viable option. Trading down is a definite possibility as well, if circumstances allow us to cut a good deal. There is a good chance Mike Sellers is the starting h-back on opening day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by OURYEAR#56 Finally somebody has broken down the BS. Joe never used the TE as a weapon in his offense. Kiper and the like are just grasping at straws right now. But Joe always wanted that TE similiar to Winslow SR when he come to washington, he just never found him. Now he can have his son who can also line up as a WR, he could be very dangerous weapon and he is a very good blocker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 True. The TE is a roll player in Gibbs offense. They will get some touches in key situations but they certainly are not a focal point of the offense other than as blockers. Winslow would be overkill for Gibbs and he just doesn't strike me as a "Gibbs style" player. On the other hand. If our new D coordinator likes the 46 D as reported then there is a good chance we grab Sean Taylor at #5. The 46 is built around outstanding Safety play. Essentially, the SS plays up on the line covering the TE and becoming an extra linebacker. The CBs play lots of Man coverage and the FS fills in the deep gaps. http://members.aol.com/dawoman26/46desite.htm http://www.sportscombine.com/thezone/Defense/46_Defense/46_Defense.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidFan Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Alge Crumpler would be nice....big,can block,and can catch and make plays downfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by OURYEAR#56 Finally somebody has broken down the BS. Joe never used the TE as a weapon in his offense. Kiper and the like are just grasping at straws right now. Trust me on this, it is more than just grasping at straws. As of today, Joe Gibbs loves what KW2 could bring to his O. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB81 Posted January 22, 2004 Author Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by Griff Trust me on this, it is more than just grasping at straws. As of today Joe Gibbs loves what KW2 could bring to his O. I guess that settles it. Who is he taking in the second round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by GGB81 I guess that settles it. Who is he taking in the second round? It doesn't settle anything, take what I say or leave it. The one truth I can tell you is, as of today Joe Gibbs loves KW2. Everything is subject to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjinhan Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by Griff Trust me on this, it is more than just grasping at straws. As of today, Joe Gibbs loves what KW2 could bring to his O. sorry i forgot that Gibbs reports to you what he thinks every morning... also is Crumpler a FA? i bet he would cost a lot to bring in.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by sjinhan sorry i forgot that Gibbs reports to you what he thinks every morning... also is Crumpler a FA? i bet he would cost a lot to bring in.... Sjinhan no need to be an @sshole. Like I said take it or leave it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by sjinhan sorry i forgot that Gibbs reports to you what he thinks every morning... also is Crumpler a FA? i bet he would cost a lot to bring in.... dam i thought everyone here knew :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjinhan Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by Griff Sjinhan no need to be an @sshole. Like I said take it or leave it. just messing with you cause you sound like you were so sure of how Gibbs felt... no need to take anything seriously people on this board pokes fun of each other a lot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by sjinhan just messing with you cause you sound like you were so sure of how Gibbs felt... no need to take anything seriously people on this board pokes fun of each other a lot... Your right, it is hard to tell through a post if some is serious or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB81 Posted January 22, 2004 Author Share Posted January 22, 2004 If asked about any highly touted draft prospect (with the possible exception of QBs), I'm usre Gibbs will give the political answer and say that "We think he is a great player and we'd love to have him on our team." Now, if you are privy to some meetings in Ashburn, then I'll shut up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Joe Gibbs' adjusted his offense to the talent available. During his first tenure, no TE of the Winslow level were available. He'd love a TE of KW2 caliber, its just that better options may be available and Joe Gibbs would not be so selfish as to sabotage other parts of the team to implement his system (like that other guy, what was his name?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by GGB81 If asked about any highly touted draft prospect (with the possible exception of QBs), I'm usre Gibbs will give the political answer and say that "We think he is a great player and we'd love to have him on our team." Now, if you are privy to some meetings in Ashburn, then I'll shut up... No need for you to shut up. Im not going to get into specifics, I just share things I have an opinion on or I know something about. Like I said before, take it or leave it, rip it apart if you choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Look, Gibbs is a unique coach. He has won with any number of different key personnel and varying schemes as a head coach. To identify any position he MUST have on his offense with the No. 5 pick in the draft is just missing the mark. Winslow is the type of tight end that would likely be far superior to any Gibbs has EVER had. Does that mean he doesn't want or need such a tight end? I don't know. But, I do know if he could win with Donny Warren and Doc Walker at tight end, he could win with Winslow there and anybody else. Gibbs is about design and matchups. He creates advantages for our offense through formation and tremendous motion. In his typical two tight-end, two receiver, one back formations, you are loaded in the Gibbs offense for the running game and still have a tremendous threat of pass. Now, if Winslow is the blocker he appears to be and he's one of those tight ends, you wind up creating a situation where teams may have to play nickel against us in many of our two tight end sets because Winslow is the sort of player who will be too much for most linebackers. Even in base formations teams will have to bring a safety into the play to cover Winslow opening things up. I think while Gibbs never had a tight end like Winslow that he could make a tight end like Winslow something teams would have nightmares when thinking about how to defend. I think Winslow is the guy who if he lives up to all his potential he can make the greatest positive impact to our team. And with Gibbs as the chess master, I think having a dynamic player like Winslow in our base formations will be something to behold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hog Fever Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by Makhpiya-Luta Joe Gibbs' adjusted his offense to the talent available. During his first tenure, no TE of the Winslow level were available. He'd love a TE of KW2 caliber, its just that better options may be available and Joe Gibbs would not be so selfish as to sabotage other parts of the team to implement his system (like that other guy, what was his name?). I just had to kill the part of my post that said the exact same thing. Great minds........ I'll post some of what I wrote anyway. -- I know you guys aren’t suggesting that Gibbs couldn’t find a way to use Winslow in his offense just because he didn’t have a guy like him in the past, right? I respectfully disagree if you are. Take a trip with me now down assumption lane. If Winslow is as good of a pro as he is expected to be then he will be better than Shockey (who is a bit overrated IMO), Heap, Pollard, Crumpler or Gonzalez. That’s a huge assumption to be sure, but no more ridiculous than some of the assumptions being made about other draft prospects. It’s exactly why he is being considered a top 5 pick when TE’s usually go much later in the draft. You could make the same draft position argument about safeties as well. There are always exceptions to the rule. Every team could find a way to use a guy like Winslow because he creates match up problems in the passing game and would pull the safety or OLB out of position when we decide to run. We aren’t going to line up and run “50 gut” 35 times a game and expect to win. Balance will still be the key. This isn't going to be Marty Ball part 2. Could we make do without him? Yes. Should he be near the top of our draft list at this point? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OURYEAR#56 Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Crumpler shouldn't command that much money. His agent would have to convince us that he's one of the top ten TE's in the league, because right now he's not right now. I know Gibbs likes WInslow II, but he's a smart guy. We nee pressure on the QB to become a winner. We have the pieces to play the Cover 2 even better than the Buc's in 2001. I know you all will think I'm nuts.....you probably already do, but we have the speed at one of the backer positions. We have the a good secondary, that is abscent one really good cover safety, but we can getr that via Free Agency. We are going to secure our D-line, and whola, we're primed to be lethal on D. We should secure our d-line first, and get Derrick Johnson (Texas Long Hrns, projected late 1st round pick) to play the weak side backer. At first I was ll for Winslow, but know I want o win so bad. I want to shut these haters up, and we can do that with a kick a$$ defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB81 Posted January 22, 2004 Author Share Posted January 22, 2004 I'd say Crumpler is one of the top 10 TE's in the league. Potentially top 5 after Gonzalez, Shockey and Heap... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Made Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Crumpler is definately top 10, and is floating around top 5.... but I don't know why we are discussing him, he's not a FA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 I agree that Gibbs can and will adapt to the players he has and I'm sure he would find a way to use Winslow as a dangerous weapon. The point is however, the claim that the TE position (as a reciever) is critical to Gibbs offense. In other words he doesn't *need* Winslow. On the other hand it could be argued that our 25th ranked defense changing to run the 46 D needs a special player like Taylor to fire on all cylinders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizkiteer Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Crumpler is not a FA. Here is the list of available TE's. Player Team Type Baxter, Fred New England Patriots UFA Brewer, Sean Atlanta Falcons RFA Bush, Steve Arizona Cardinals UFA Campbell, Mark Buffalo Bills UFA Cleeland, Cameron St. Louis Rams UFA Cushing, Matt Pittsburgh Steelers UFA Davenport, Joe Dean Indianapolis Colts RFA Dunn, Jason Kansas City Chiefs UFA Hape, Patrick Denver Broncos UFA Holloway, Jabari Houston Texans RFA Jennings, Brian San Francisco 49ers UFA Johnson, Eric San Francisco 49ers RFA Jones, John Baltimore Ravens UFA Kinney, Erron Tennessee Titans UFA Kleinsasser, Jim Minnesota Vikings UFA Kozlowski, Brian Atlanta Falcons UFA Leach, Mike Denver Broncos UFA Mangum, Kris Carolina Panthers UFA Manumaleuna, Brandon St. Louis Rams RFA Martin, David Green Bay Packers RFA Meier, Shad Tennessee Titans RFA Monroe, Rodrick Cleveland Browns UFA Rasby, Walter New Orleans Saints UFA Rivers, Marcellus New York Giants RFA Santiago, O.J. Oakland Raiders UFA St. Louis, Brad Cincinnati Bengals UFA Stewart, Tony Cincinnati Bengals RFA Walls, Wesley Green Bay Packers UFA Weaver, Jed San Francisco 49ers UFA Whalen, James Dallas Cowboys RFA Wiggins, Jermaine Carolina Panthers UFA Williams, Boo New Orleans Saints RFA Yoder, Todd Tampa Bay Buccaneers UFA Zelenka, Joe Jacksonville Jaguars UFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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