Are we in dreamland with this "continuity" thing? La la land?

[kleese]

Ask me what I want us to do this off-season and I'll spit out what has become the obligatory answer: "Keep Spurrier, gain some continuity, build on something...." Blah Blah Blah

That's been the company line I've been spitting out. But when I stop and think about it, I wonder if it really makes sense at all.

Yes, techincally speaking, it would make sense to allow a coach/system/team get used to each other, build chemistry, work out the kinks, etc.... But if the coach simply isn't GOOD, if the system isn't GOOD, then continuity won't mean jack.

Norv had SEVEN seasons here-- we had plenty of time to develop all of those things, yet because he wasn't good, it never mattered.

Same thing happening in Miami right now. Wandstedt could stay there for 20 more years and they would never win because he isn't any good, period.

If I thought it was all about ego, effort, and development, then I'd be more inclined to stick to the company line.

But I think we have serious problems with talent, and I also think Spurrier is trying his hardest, but doesn't know how to do it. It's not just something any coach can "learn"-- if it was that easy, we'd see more guys like Parcells.

If it was simply a matter of giving SS a little more time and I had confidence he'd get it all figured out, then I'd be patient and see what happens. But I think it's ENTIRELY possible that he simply isn't a good NFL coach.

Heath Shuler could have gotten 500 starts in the NFL and he still would have stunk. Same principle applies to coach's and everyone else.

It's possible we could stick with the continuity thing, have another terrible year, and simply delay the inevitable for another year.

I understand why SS would come back. We've had so much turnover recently, that it might be worth a shot to see something through. Snyder is most likely very wary of the media backlash that would occur if he made another change. It would cast unreal doubt on the new coach.

So, I get it.

But at the same time, Snyder could "over-correct" this situation by allowing a bad thing to get worse and worse.

Problem is that I see NO signs of life from this team. Nothing. No improvement, no confidence. It's only getting worse. In order to look forward to year 3, wouldn't you have to see SOMETHING in years 1 or 2 that tweaked you interest?

What I would honestly like to see is SS to step down. Takes the heat off of Snyder and gives us no choice but to move on.

NO WAY would I hire ANY retread coach unless he had been to at least ONE Super Bowl and had CONSISTENT success at the NFL level. Denny Green is solid, but not good enough. Reminds me of a different version of Marty. Reeves would have been OK 5-10 years ago, but I think he's a little worn-down now.

Parcells. Gibbs. Jimmy Johsnon. Dick Vermeil. Those are the guys that I would go for. Ain't gonna happen. They don't grow on trees, and no one like that is available.

The only potential current coach I would be happy with is Cohwer, and I'd even be a bit wary of him.

That's why I'd roll the dice with a worthy assistant. Jim Schwartz comes to mind. 37 years old, Titans D coordinator. Reminds a lot of people of a defensive minded version of Gruden. He's been a high-level assistant for some very good teams.

There are other assistanst out there that deserve a shot.

I don't really care if he's a tyrant or if he's more low-key. As long as he SURROUNDS HIMSELF with winners, and has a CLEAR plan on how to handle both the emotional and strategic elemetns of running a team, I'd be happy.

I'm ALL FOR a total rebuild. Folks, we need to wake up. This is a nightmare of a mess.

My dream off-season scenerio:

Spurrier leaves. We hire GM with solid credentials. We hire the assistant I've mentioned above.

We trade Champ for a first. We target all players on the team that may be key reason for our "losing culture" and get rid of them regardless of what it does to our cap. For example, I would trade Rod Gardner literally for whatever I could get. Cut Trotter.

Extend Lavar. I'm not in love with him-- he is not a "star" player at this point, but he does care about this team, he does work his tail off, and he is pretty good still with potential to be better, especially on a better team.

Ignore high-priced FA's. Unless there's a stud along the DL you can land.

Take the best DE available with your first round pick. With the other first rounder, find an immediate impact player anywhere we could use him. A RB would be a possibility or a great TE. Maybe a DT.

Draft at least two more DL in the middle/late rounds.

Sign a solid CB in FA. Just a smart vet, no need to be great.

You'd enter the season minus some of the "baggage" we have now, our DL would be MUCH improved (Noble comes back), and our new coach will hopefully have some lower-key hard workers throughout the roster.

That team could win NEXT year as we see in Cincy, Dallas, Carolina, etc.... and even if they don't make a big playoff run, if we've hired the right coach we'd clearly be going in the right direction.

When you find the "right" coach you know immediatley. Yes, some of the great ones have had average/bad records at the start, but there is ALWAYS a sign of good things to come. Gibbs went 0-5, rallied that team, and won the Super Bowl the next year.

John Fox took a 1-15 team, improved them immensley in his first year and now they are going to win their division in year 2.

It can be done. It can be done quickly. It can be done with a new regime. If you get the right guy, it can happen.

Yes, there is danger is making too many changes. There is also danger in keeping a coach too long- -Norv Turner.

I was all for hiring SS. I was excited. I thought he was worth the shot, although I acknowledged his downside. Unfortunatley, his downside is "downer" than I thought. It hasn't worked. I really don't think it will work no matter how much we try to stay the course.

I tried to defend Norv well into his tenure, befor I saw the light. One day a good friend of mine (and fellow fan) asked me a question. He said:

"Do you ever really see Norv Turner hoisting the Lombardi trophy?"

I tried to envision it, and I just couldn't. Not under any circumstances. I now feel the same way about Spurrier. No matter how hard we try and make this work, no matter how well intended everyone is, I just don't think this current crew is going to work.

This is the best way I know how to express me feelings on the state of our team and what we should do. To save time and energy, I think I'll just paste this post from time to time wherever it applies-- hope that doesn't bother anyone, but I seriously doubt I'll be able to express it any better than this.

[Leonard Washington]

i don't know how to respond. was that a sarcastic post?

[Bang]

Well, again..

The prime scenario in that would be for Spurrier to walk away of his own.

If danny fires him, why would anyone come to work for the Redskins?

If Spurrier leaves under anything other than his own decision, then no one in their right mind would take this job, especially an up and coming coordinator with hopes of any other NFL head coaching job when the plug gets pulled on him in two years, maybe less.

If I were a coaching candidate, and Snyder fires Spurrier, I'd change my phone number. I'd have absolutely zero confidence that I'd be given the time necessary to clean up the mess.

~Bang

[Heavy Jumbo]

The best we can do now is wait and see.

[@DCGoldPants]

I am so sick of change that I'm willing to wait and see for one more season.

If that doesn't work.

Then it starts at the top. Hire a GM....let the GM hire a coach and go to the owners box to enjoy the games.

[kleese]

I agree Bang, if Spurrier isn't here next year, it's going to have to be HIS choice.

[Even Madder]

Seriously, what's the downside to firing Spurrier, ****-canning the whole staff, and starting from scratch?

Sure, it'll piss off the prima donna players who'll whine about their "5th coach in 5 years" or some such nonsense, but will it really makes things worse?

I don't think anyone can build a compelling case that Spurrier is going to lead the Skins to the playoffs next year. Sure, Ramsey will be back, the offense will be intact again, and the DL will presumably be addressed... but it ain't enough. Still no heart. No spirit. No desire.

So how can a new coach be worse? I think if we give Spurrier another year, aren't we just postponing the inevitable? Won't we be in the same position next year?

[kleese]

Totally agree Madder. What exactly do we have to lose? Where is everyone picturing us at the end of next year? Ahead of Philly? Dallas? With this staff?

[Bang]

The downside is no one with any coaching ability will want to take the job. The only reason anyone would come here is for a fat paycheck. Anyone with any real aspirations would steer clear.

If Snyder shltcans everything and starts from scratch, then he has given any coaching candidate in the country a big red flag that says "You will not let me finish the job."

Whether Spurrier can fix his mess is another subject, but the perception the media has laid on Snyder is one of an impetuous spoiled little rich kid who cries and fires everyone in sight if things don't go his way.

Frankly, I think every coach he's fired deserved their firing. But perception is what matters. And now, because of that, he's in a position of having to stick it out with the coach he chose to show that he is willing to ride thru the bad patches. Danny has a credibility problem that needs to be cleared up for any coaching candidates that may look at the job in the future.

Now I'm sure we could fire everyone, and then land some joker like Jerry Glanville, but is that what we'd want?

I don't.

Now, if the opportunity opens up to land say, Bill Cowher, or another BONA FIDE winning NFL head coach,,, then you consider making all the moves and cleaning house.

~Bang

[Om]

Close your eyes and envision a healthy Patrick Ramsey.

A healthy Patrick having worked with LC and Rod and Darnerian and T. Jacobos for a full year.

And a real running back.

And an OL of Samuels, Dockery, Friedman, Thomas and Jansen with a full year together under their belts.

And a defensive line that can make a play now and then. I know this one requires some concentration (faith?) ... but work with me here.

And a LB corps working behind that line with another full year together.

And a secondary that is, if not spectacular, capable of solid play.

And a head coach who has seen and publicly admitted the offense he ran in college ain't working and needs tweaking. A head coach who understands that, if his legacy means anything to him at all, will need to jettison some assistant coach cronies and hire a professional or two if he really wants to turn the thing around.

THAT is why you bring him back for another year. Because THAT formula is a damn sight closer to turning the half-dozen tossup razor-close games we lost this year -- due to a couple of plays here and there -- into wins than pulling the plug AGAIN, and turning this flawed roster into a winner under either a retread head coach OR hungry young assistant who will start from scratch all the hell over again.

The team that played Dallas with Tim Hasselbeck at QB and (forgive me but) Rock Cartwright at RB and absolutely the worst DL in the league is NOT the team that led Carolina 17-13 with four minutes left and a chance to get the kind of win that is going to be needed to turn this around.

I suffer as much as anyone here watching my team play like they did on Sunday, but I am also capable of remembering how close we were to breaking through several times this year, only to be undone by some bad luck, some bad front office work, and some crappy coaching. Funny thing is, had the ball actually bounced our way despite all that, like it has to for a team trying to break out of a losing cycle, we'd not be talking about firing the coach or wishing he'd just quit and walk away.

We'd be talking about adding the one or two players, and letting another offseason of growth by our QB our coaching staff, take us into into next year as a legitimate playoff contended.

Says here that that is the thing we should be trying to remember in the wake of a humiliating loss to our archrival, not pretending that was our best shot with our best weapons and turning it into Waterloo.

[Montilar]

Seriously, what's the downside to firing Spurrier, ****-canning the whole staff, and starting from scratch?

The problem with that is what it does for Snyder. If he waits out spurrier and gives him the opportunity, snyder's rep actually improves.

If he tars and feathers Spurrier and co. after year two, after dumping gutless Norv in midseason, and dumping marty after one year, it pretty much screws the redskins.

No self respecting coach is going to trust the organization as long as Snyder is the owner under that scenario. Especially after giving marty total control and then yanking it away like a petulant child. I disagreed with marty as a coach; I figured him for one of thse "get close but no cigar" types. But I disagreed with dumping him in just one year.

Snyder cannot afford to dump Spurrier if he ever wants a chance at a top notch coach again. People will coach for bidwell, or Cincy, or the raiders first....

[spanishomelette]

I'm fine with staying pat. The front office must demonstrate some ability to be patient with their coach for the reasons stated by others already.

If (maybe when) Spurrier fails next year, he will leave on his own. If Spurrier can take this total waste of a season and learn and build from it, more power to him and the 'skins. I believe the former to be more likely to happen, but dumping him now I think will make things even worse for the future (yes, I believe that's possible even after the 2nd loss to the followers of Jones).

[OrangeSkin]

Norval and Wannstedt had multiple years of NFL experience under their respective belts before they took head coaching positions.

Spurrier has two years in the NFL, and exclusively as a head coach. He deserves time to get his feet under him. It's probably a much bigger jump than any of us can even comprehend.

And even if Spurrier stinks it up next year, what exactly will it hurt? We've been losing for the past 10 years anyway. If anything, it'll prove to the players and media that Danny Boy didn't once again can a coach too quickly.

[TLusby]

Who cares what anybody (the media) thinks! We have a team that needs to compete. Do what you have to and all the coaches mentioned would come here. It's all about the dollar. Jimmy Johnson is licking his chops for the opportunity. You can tell by watching Fox every weekend. You know he would get more than Spurrier since he has some rings and that's alot more than Miami or Dallas ever payed him. Follow the dollar gentleman!

[RF4L]

Do you "continuity" people realize how bad we are?

Man, there is no down from here, only up.

Unreal.

[yank]

Consider that we played the Jets without Pennington, the Falcons without Vick, the Pats without a boatload of players and the Giants in a sorrier state than us. Without this luck we could be 1-13.

Want to stay the course? Keep our "talented" roster?

We would have Wynn, Bruce, Armstead and Trotter a year older when they are too old and beat up as it is.

Our safeties and DTs are pitiful as are our RBs. Our interior OL is unremarkable except for Thomas. This is right up the gut guys and except for PR every other team owns every position in the middle of the field.

Our roster is full of Swiss cheese.

Stay the course?

Enough cheese lets get some beef ...

[NoCalMike]

We had a team that did compete in almost every game this season. Only 2 games that we never had a chance in, which were Buffalo and Dallas #2.......and possibly the Tampa Game AFTER the 3rd quarter. Every other game we were right in there until 4th quarter meltdowns, or mistakes that a rookie QB should be expected to be making.

Our problem is not Free Agents, but the fact that they are in the door today, gone tomorrow.

Snyder needs to hire a GM ASAP, to decide who stays and who goes, and whoever stays, needs to stay for the rest of their career, or at least until they are over the hill and just looking for that last paycheck or that last stat*cough-bruce-smith-cough*

We have a team that has competed and been in a position to win games almost every week. I am not delusional, in our current state, the playoffs look bleak next year as well, but you know what? What do you expect from a coach with no NFL experience and with a staff of assistants that are greener then the algae in the Atlantic Ocean? It takes time to learn and grow AS A TEAM, and if our turnover ratio of players keeps up like it has been, we are never going to have a TEAM, we are going to have a group of guys assembled and asked to win a championship in one year.......it aint going to happen.

First thing is first, we need a GM that will put together a TEAM.

[Die Hard]

Originally posted by OrangeSkin

He deserves time to get his feet under him. It's probably a much bigger jump than any of us can even comprehend.

It's too bad we've made him the highest paid coach in NFL history.... to learn on the job.

2 years now. Not exactly a quick study is he.

[Die Hard]

Originally posted by NoCalMike

First thing is first, we need a GM that will put together a TEAM.

Since when were GMs allowed in the huddle. I don't even see them with headphones in the booths.

You wanna know who creates the atmosphere of the locker room? The coach.

You wanna who sets the standard of excellence for the football program? The coach.

And you aren't going to convince anyone that a GM - on any NFL team - won't butt heads with a head coach on a few decisions. Any more than Cerrato and Spurrier have done. Look at McKay and Gruden - and yet that situation doesn't endure the same scrutiny as the Redskins situation.

Spurrier has been given plenty of rope to hang himself with.

1 . He handpicked his entire staff with the exception of Marvin Lewis.

When Marvin Lewis says something out of character (ie. "It's not exactly utopia here.") that should ring off the alarm bells. The only tarnish on Lewis' coaching resume up to that point was to be turned down for the Bucs job by no fault of his own; the Glazers apparently didn't approve of his selection and they overrided the decision of their GM.

2. Who's decision do you think it was to sign all those ex-gators?

If you can't accept the fact it was Spurrier's doing... you're in denial.

3. It was publicly announced upon the conclusion of last year that Spurrier was going to be more involved in the personnel decisions. Remember all those latenight pow-wows we were told about studying tapes of players to put together a "plan"?

If you honestly believe that the majority of these losses can be put directly on the players.... you'd also have to scrutinize the coach or GM that selected them.

And if I were to venture a guess about the distribution in power between the GM and the coach.... I'd bet Spurrier has more than Cerrato.

[REDALERT]

We all have our own opions about what should be done and what should not be done. But the proof is in the pudding, Steve Spurrier is way over his head and it's gonna take more than another year or 2 for Spurrier to get this ship sailing.

"REPEAT AFTER ME" Steve Spurrier is elementary when it comes to basic X's and O's during football games and Quality coaches have exposed that. It's not only Spurrier, but it's his entire staff that he hand picked. And I'm quite sure most of you read some of the statements that were given by Steve Spurrier after embarrassing games "PATHETIC". What about the sputtering games on offense, Yes! quite often.

What about not being able to make proper adjustments on the fly. And It's not because he doesn't want to. It's just that he's having a hard time understanding what it's gonna take to do so. Steve Spurrier is doing what Steve Spurrier knows best, point blank and direct. And It doesn't take a mad scientist to figure out Steve Spurrier's clueless at times when it comes to making changes during the game. If you only watched the games closely and watched the play of the offense, it was quite evident to me.

The Players, now the players are beating around the bush and not coming out publicly and saying whats on their minds, that "Steve Sourrier and his staff sucks". Yes! your gonna always have players on your side like lavar and other true players backing you up. But your gonna also have players that sometimes make small jesters or minor remarks about the state of the coaching staff and hopes somebody gets the hint.

Look, the team is like one big family and you don't just go outside the family and start blabber mouthing other family members. Everythings kept on the "hush hush". Until one day, someone, some player gets totally fed up, or. To show that coach better, that player or players go to another team and then starts spelling his beans to other players and starts telling the media what a mess the entire staff was in . It's just part of the business, and when you become a NFL family member. It's taught and told to players, don't go outside the lines if you wanna last longer in this proffession.

So with all of that above, I'm totally prepared to endure another season of the same sh!t, diffrent year under Steve Spurrier's helm. And for you guys who wants him to stay better be prepared for the same crap. Look! If Steve Spurrier stays, and he will stay. Then all of us next year will be on the same page for once in our Redskin lifetime and understand that Steve is still learning the basic X and O format coaching on the NFL level. And it's gonna take for him to get entirely rid of his ego and his entire coaching staff. Better yet!, take a long look into the mirror and start confessing up to his own shortcomings that's hendering the team as a whole.

How can any player, or players on defense be content with and have any confidence in a coach or coaches that can't seem to get the offfense off the ground when their constantly busting their arses and atleat keeping the game close. And Yes! they too had their fare share of let downs during the season. But don't get it twisted people, the offense had far more let downs opposed to what the defnese had. Especially when the organization spends it's 1st round draft pick on L. Coles. Bring in what was suppose to be 2 extra all-pro caliber OL to give you time to open up that Fun ;N' Gun system of yours. Also, spend it's 2nd round draft pick on another gator wide receiver and everyones looking for that high powered offense of minded coach on board. And after all of that wheeling and dealing, your steadily stirring the pot and atleast looking for something flavorful. But all you keep getting is something smelling smoke and no delightful soup.

Now, that remedy for success would leave a bitter taste in the mouths of any defense of player that's atleast keeping you in the game until the offense can muster something up soon. But "NEWS FLASH", it never materialized, not on the playing field, not during crucial games, and not even against some teams that were half broken in the defense department.

Honestly, look at the 5 wins we have. The Jets without Pennington could hardly muster up any points themselves, but the Redskins defense atleast kept the game close until Ramsey could break loose late in the game to get us closer to field goal range. But hardly nothing to brag about on offense other than the first few series, and then the Jets defense and coaching staff snapped.

The Falcons, they still managed to muster up some points early before our defense snapped and started holding them until the offense got going. Well! the offense did finally get going, but not against one of the better defenses in the NFL. Yes! a win is a win, but the falcons defense did kinda fall asleep thinking the game was already over or something. We lucked out here..

The Patriots, (see banged up defense) and Bradey trying to do too much for a re-shuffled defense and a confused one at that, but that was then. Until the Patriots coach snapped and made adjustments that shut us down the entire 2nd half on offense. But again, the defense bailed us out.

The Hawks, may I say more. Ray Rhodes had a bad case of memory laspe and couldn't think. All he had to do was blitz like everyone else.

The Giants, sorry Tom giants. But the giants are in a disarray some what worser than we are. And atleast Hassleback gave the defense something to play harder for and to look forward to other than the offense sputtering. It gave the defense a new incentive to believe that maybe this QB change could help jump start a pathetic offense. Well! it worked until Dallas smacked them right back into reality.

:laugh:

NOTHINGS CHANGED......

[paul55]

Spurrier leaves on his own after the Philly loss. Yes there are coaches or assistants out there who can turn this franchise around.

The sooner we change the sooner we start to climb upwards.

SOS, rookie OC, rookie DC= in over their heads

[Bang]

...So, none of this addresses the issue of Snyder's credibility among coaching prospects.

I ask again...

If YOU were a hot coachin prospect, would YOU come to work here after watching four coaches get fired in four years?

It doesn't matter that Norv deserved it, it doesn't matter Robiskie only coached 3 games... it's about perception, and the perception of Snyder is that he's spoiled and a crybabay who will throw every baby out with the bathwater on the slightest whim.

I repeat.

Fire Spurrier, and kill any chance of any quality coach for a LONG time.

If Spurrier walks away with any reason OTHER than "it's my fault, I underestimated the NFL" then it reflects back to Snyder, and whether it's true or not, will be once again perceived as too hands on and forcing coaches out the door before they're finished. They will use the Danny Wuerffel garbage as their proof, and no matter how much anyone protests the validity of it, NO coaching prospect will ever walk into this place without believing first and foremost in his mind that he is hamstrung from the start.

It's going to be painted a career killer if you're an up and coming coordinator.

So . fire him.

Get ready for Bruce Coslet,, Jerry Glanville, Dan Reeves, and all the others in the loser parade to be standing on the doorstep with their hands out

Jimmy Johnson? He'd love to get paid, absolutely,, but does anyone think it's about money for him? Does anyone believe that with his record of success in Dallas followed by internal battles with the QB and FO in Miami.. think he wants to try again in a place wherere it is perceived that the first sniff of failure seals your doom?

Where "FANS" will wear BAGS On their goddam heads like a bunch of LOW CLASS Saints fans?

I doubt he would.

We're stuck with this mess for the time being. Like it or not.

~Bang

[GSF]

I disagree with the premise that if SOS gets fired at the end of the season, no other coach will come here. The rest of the league has seen how woeful Spurrier has been. Everyone has watched the Skins go in reverse under Spurrier. The rest of the league also watched Snyder go to great lengths to get his guy, and to give his guy whatever tools he said he needed to win. I think there are a lot of nfl coaches and assistants that view Snyder more favorably that some of us on this board. I think most coaches want an owner that are willing to go to great lengths to win, and Snyder has shown he is willing. The one hitch is how involved Snyder is going to be in personel decisions, and the good coaches are going to insist on having control of that anyway.

[kleese]

The downside is no one with any coaching ability will want to take the job. The only reason anyone would come here is for a fat paycheck. Anyone with any real aspirations would steer clear.

There's an old saying regarding coaching in pro sports:

"If a job opened up in hell, there'd be 4,000 applicants."

Point being, that with the exception of the Parcells-types who can pick and choose the jobs they want, just about any coach would JUMP at the opportunity to coach any NFL team.

Even if a coach is wary of the owner and knows he has a quick-trigger, these guys are usually self-confident enough to think they can do a good job. They think that what they will do as a head coach will turn out good results.

And one thing is for sure-- Snyder may be a pain in the rear at times for a coach, but he WILL pay you and he WILL pay to get the players you want. He may want to have his little meetings with you, but he WILL do whatever you think needs to be done.

One thing I never worry about is a potential coach turning down the job. Simply won't happen unless we're talking about some of the all-time greats.

And this nonsense about losing close games is absurd. That shows me NOTHING. You could just as easily look at our close wins and say with a few break the other way, we'd be 2-12 right now.

What bothers me the most is the obvious lack of progress from year one to year two. When I tried to defend Spurrier in the past, I was simply in denial.

Why will things start to work simply because of the continuity if SOS and company just aren't good enough?

I have seen NOTHING that indicates that Spurrier is improving. Nothing.

[Om]

When I tried to defend Spurrier in the past, I was simply in denial.

And it could be that now that you're excoriating him, you are simply being reactionary and/or emotional.

And forgetting, perhaps, the obvious holes in the roster that will need to be fixed before ANY coach can take this team where we want it to go.

And forgetting, perhaps, that, when its' QB and so-so RB's were healthy earlier in the year, this team, despite it's utter vacuum at DL, was right there against some of the better teams in the league.

The line between "progress" and "stagnation" on this team, with all the variables we are rightfully discussing around here, is simply too hard to call at this point from a fans' perspective. If anyone here is actually a Skins official with all the inside knowledge of what's really going on, and would like to shed some actual knowledge on the subject, I'm sure I'd not be the only one lending a keen ear. But I don't think such a person posts here.

And so we go merrily along, trading opinions.

Yours is that you have seen NOTHING that indicates Spurrier is improving.

Mine is that I have seen SEVERAL THINGS that do ... and also see PLENTY that still needs to be addressed, both by Spurrier and the front office.

Hard as it is to look back any farther than 27-0, or any deeper than "losing close games doesn't mean anything" ... I humbly suggest we need to do both.

*

Just making conversation.