Whiskeypeet Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 He is a very good corner, I think we make him out to be worse than he is. NO WE DON'T!!! Champ wants to be paid like a premier defensive player. He wants to get paid like Ray Lewis. Then he should be playing like a premier defensive player the entire game. Not just part of a play...the whole damn thing. And for the love of god its not like we are considering this one play in a vacume. Champ gets toasted more than his share. He is a really good corner...but thats it. He can't carry this defense or shut down a side of the field. Champ creates the animosity against him. If he was reasonable in his demands and backed up his demands with great play then you wouldn't hear the complaints. The simple fact is that he has had way to many lapses. He deserves the criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 I dont care if he is banged up or not, right now he is not playing like he is worth 18 mil. As of right now, Id tag him and test the waters to see if anyone would take him off our hands. that 18 mil culd be better invested in fixing our porus D line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Originally posted by Whiskeypeet NO WE DON'T!!! Champ wants to be paid like a premier defensive player. He wants to get paid like Ray Lewis. Then he should be playing like a premier defensive player the entire game. Not just part of a play...the whole damn thing. And for the love of god its not like we are considering this one play in a vacume. Champ gets toasted more than his share. He is a really good corner...but thats it. He can't carry this defense or shut down a side of the field. Champ creates the animosity against him. If he was reasonable in his demands and backed up his demands with great play then you wouldn't hear the complaints. The simple fact is that he has had way to many lapses. He deserves the criticism. What he said. You want Ray Lewis money? Then impact the game like Ray Lewis does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Champ is still a better corner than Smoot, and he would tell you that himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SkinsHokie Fan Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 The old debate again. If we were to acquire another "Smoot" like corner and improve our D-line at the same time that makes the defense a hell of a lot better then it is now. Makes sense to me if McAllister is able to be had for a 7-8 million dollar SB and a DE as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Originally posted by Gamebreaker Champ is still a better corner than Smoot, and he would tell you that himself. im sure that Champ would. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskeypeet Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Champ is still a better corner than Smoot Who cares. Smoot isn't asking for Ray Lewis money and isn't getting burnt with disturbing regularity. There is no debate here. Champ wants too much money....pure and simple. If we can get some d-linemen who can rush the passer then we probably don't even need a corner of McCalister's caliber. Of course pass rushing defensive linemen aren't easy to come by either. Bottom line though is that we can't bust our cap on Champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Originally posted by Oldskool im sure that Champ would. :laugh: Actually, Smoot has admitted that Champ is the better corner. :shot: I swear some fans are so emotional, let one player go through a slump and no all of sudden the #2 corner is better than him. Did you feel the same when Smoot had that sub-par second season? Did you feel the same when the FO left Smoot exposed as trade bait in the off-season? Just because Smoot had a good game doesn't mean we should all trash Champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Originally posted by CrankyTodd Where were all of you in the offseason when I was saying we should extend Smoot? It's getting more expensive by the minute. I was with you my brother . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Originally posted by Whiskeypeet Who cares. Smoot isn't asking for Ray Lewis money and isn't getting burnt with disturbing regularity. There is no debate here. Champ wants too much money....pure and simple. If we can get some d-linemen who can rush the passer then we probably don't even need a corner of McCalister's caliber. Of course pass rushing defensive linemen aren't easy to come by either. Bottom line though is that we can't bust our cap on Champ. Who cares? How about the posters that said Smoot was better than Champ, that's who. You're right, there is no debate here. Especially since Champ and his agent never formally declined the Skins offer, and most likely won't ask for more when they'll be so many quality corners available this off-season. The team won't bust our cap on Champ because all of the chips are in their corner, he doesn't have much to negotiate with. By the way, if you think Champ is getting burnt with "disturbing regularity" than maybe you might not want anyone else out there since any other corner would get abused worse. Besides today, we haven't had any type of pressure on the QB. And it looked like the sun was in Champ's eyes on that one big play he gave up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted November 10, 2003 Author Share Posted November 10, 2003 as the one who started this thread I want there to be no doubt that champ is the superior corner back. To assume otherwise is laughable, and I don't think many on the board feel that way. That being said, champ wants a LOT more money, and the difference is not worth it. Two smoots and a bad ass defensive line sure is better than one champ, half of a defensive line and rashad bauman. -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TODD Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 He can't carry this defense or shut down a side of the field. Did you watch the Atlanta game? The Jets game? Joey Galloway in the Dallas game? Champ Bailey is one of a few players on this team who could be used to carry a franchise. You HAVE to keep him. You HAVE to give him the money. We already have two bad holes in our secondary at safety, and no depth at corner. There's no way Fred Smoot could cover a Santana Moss, Eric Moulds, or Marvin Harrison, among many others, through an entire game. This guy is truly a shut down corner, despite a COUPLE of performances. You "haters" are expecting this guy to be perfect, and you can't ask that from any corner in the NFL. I can't even think of another corner who is more of a shut down guy than him. We're not going to find anything better, and we're going to use picks on DL's. Champ is our best bet. Let's keep him and continue to fill our holes, not create more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlobberKnockinFootball Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Originally posted by Gamebreaker Actually, Smoot has admitted that Champ is the better corner. :shot: I swear some fans are so emotional, let one player go through a slump and no all of sudden the #2 corner is better than him. Did you feel the same when Smoot had that sub-par second season? Did you feel the same when the FO left Smoot exposed as trade bait in the off-season? Just because Smoot had a good game doesn't mean we should all trash Champ. I don't think the point is that we are disheartened by the fact that he's in a slump. The fact is that he's asking for a world of money. He wants to be paid like an impact player but "Frankly" isn't performing like one. Bailey has been a solid CB for a few years. But he isn't a game changer like a Ray Lewis or Deion. I know we all hate that name..but back in his day he was a game changer. But he isn't performing like one and never has. He's just been a very good player. There is a difference from very good and game changer. I don't think Bailey has that kind of talent IMO. There are other players out there with Champ's skills for a lot less next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pa_Skins_Fan Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Champ is reminding me a little bit like Sean Gelbert was remember him. I may not have spelled it right but he wanted tons of money too and was sent packing. Not a bad player but when you ask for top dollar you better play verygood every week because everbody is watching you. Champs been slipping up a little probably not all his fault. He has been beat one on one several times this year not to mention those boot legs he missed played. I bet he thinking he should have taken the early offers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 I wonder if all these people saying "Don't pay Champ" are the same people bemoaning the fact that we didn't pay Stephen Davis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 The choice is to pay Champ and still have no pass rush or pay a lesser CB and get some pass rush. I wish the people who keep saying "we have to sign him no matter what" would understand there is a salary cap to adhere to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Originally posted by Dan T. I wonder if all these people saying "Don't pay Champ" are the same people bemoaning the fact that we didn't pay Stephen Davis. Not at all. Everyone acknowledges that Champ is a very good CB. But, when you're asking for a record-breaking contract, it is reasonable to expect that his play be commensurate with that demand. In other words, he should be freaking, game-changing incredible. Incredible players don't give up plays like he did yesterday where the QB basically tossed up a punt. Champ didn't come close to making a play. And, it wasn't an isolated incident. Champ isn't incredible, he's merely very good. Which means that the Redskins would be crazy to burn so much cap space on a player who is merely very good. If he wants a very good contract, then I'm all for the team keeping him. I just wouldn't pay him at the price point he's expecting - not even close, actually. Cripes, this is a guy who's in a contract year and wants sick money, and yet he still has had many lapses this season. There are no excuses - if you want that kind of money, you have to play like it, week in and week out, and play after play. Even Dana Stubblefield had the good sense to be the league defensive MVP in his contract year before he came here and flopped. Champ isn't even making this a tough decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 eaxactly. If he wants to be paid top CB money, I expect him to give up NOTHING! NADA! ZIP! Not one measely 5 yard hitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OaktonSkins/BushFan Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 I've said it before, I'll say it again. Let's franchise Champ and get some picks for him. At this point, we might be able to pick up a first and a third. We use the savings by not signing Champ along with our new found picks to seriously overhaul and bolster the DL. Pick up Bobby Taylor, who will be available in FA, to replace Bailey. He's good for two seasons. After next year, we draft a first round CB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OaktonSkins/BushFan Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Oh , and yes, extend Smoot's contract now. This season, in particular, Smoot has demonstrated some qualities of great Redskins players of an earlier era. Impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 The choice is to pay Champ and still have no pass rush or pay a lesser CB and get some pass rush. I wish the people who keep saying "we have to sign him no matter what" would understand there is a salary cap to adhere to. I'm not saying pay him no matter what. What I am saying is he'll likely be re-signed for less than our initial offer was at this point. Champ isn't stupid, he know he isn't having his typical season, regardless of being injured for most of it. With the high number of quality corners on the market he'll realize he best chance at a payday is with us and he'll stay. Personally, I don't want any other corner but Champ Bailey covering the #1 reciever on the field. No one in the league does it better. Regardless of what the haters think, no other corner could play better with our pathetic pass rush and we should be glad he have a corner than he hold his own for as long as he has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 eaxactly. If he wants to be paid top CB money, I expect him to give up NOTHING! NADA! ZIP! Not one measely 5 yard hitch. Then you are expecting something no corner could EVER do. Even Deion in his prime occasionally gave up a pass or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shamanistic1 Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 If he's playing himself out of a payday, then we should be able to retain him for less. I't will sicken me to see yet another Skin's player leaving to be a key part of another team. I still believe we need to retain him. Snyder pours money down the drain regardless lets not allow a great DB leave because we "Don't want to pay him" and dispite his play at the moment he's still one of the top 8 DB's in the league. I'll leave you all with one word. "DION"!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 And I didnt want Deion either. Make no mistake. I'd love to keep Champ. But it's not that simple. The money he wants now can be better used by signing a lesser CB talent and a decent Dlineman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted November 10, 2003 Author Share Posted November 10, 2003 I am still confused by those who think we could get any more than a second rounder for champ. Even that might be a stretch. He has played very porly this year. Due to injury or whatever, he simply won't generate any buzz because of the market. edit: byt the way, I was for the release of stephen davis as well for almost exaclty the same reasons. Cornerstones of mediocre teams do not deserve big contracts. -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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