Need to Know: 5 Redskins notes as they report for minicamp

[actorguy1]

From Tandler's article:

 

—On the other hand, you have to wonder how much of a favor Shanahan did the Redskins having Robert Griffin III run the read option so much when he was a rookie. Sure, it got the Redskins a division title and RG3 earned a ton of individual accolades. But it cost him a year of development into a pocket passer and then last year his development was hampered by his knee injury. It’s not as though Griffin is like a rookie this year but he’s going to have to learn a lot of stuff that he should have been learning the last two years. The decision to use Griffin as they did seems to be a case of short-term gain for long-term pain.

 

Opinions?

 

http://realredskins.com/2014/06/16/need-to-know-5-redskins-notes-as-they-report-for-minicamp/

[SWFLSkins]

Where's the link?                       http://realredskins.com/2014/06/16/need-to-know-5-redskins-notes-as-they-report-for-minicamp/

 

 

You have to ask yourself if this is a setback or a set up. RGIII might have ran too much his whole career if he hadn't been injured and might never have developed. What if it lasted into year three? How many years would his career be shortened from the hits? So in the end this could be the best thing long term. 

[SWFLSkins]

more importantly.....Timeline

—It’s been 169 days since the Redskins played a game; it will be 83 days until they play the Texans in their 2014 season opener.

[RedskinsInFebruary]

Is it the consensus that NFL defenses "figured out" and stopped the RO last year, specifically the RG3/Redskins version of it (because RG3 and the 2012 Redskins seemed to get more out of it than anyone)? 

 

Or was it more the injury, brace, other factors on the Redskins' side that made it ineffective?

[HtownRocks111]

<---------- Glass half full guy....

 

 

But look at it this way.  Had RGIII not slowed down so much last year, we may have over looked at the deficiencies of our team.    You start at the top of the roster with RGIII at the begining of 2013, and as the season progresses you look down that roster and see which players benefited (even more then RGIII) from the RO offense in 2012.  Can you imagine if the wool was pulled over our eyes once again if we had gone 8-8 or 9-7 in 2013 and we only made subtle changes to our WR core, OL, DL, DBs ect ect ect...  

 

Even with a new coach, we would be set up for failure for a year or two until we got it right.  With a few hit-it-out-of-the-park FA signings (and by this I mean outstanding upgrades at the weakest positions) like with Djax/Roberts, Hatcher, Ryan Clark, OL (Moses/Long) that could possibly boost us back to where we were in 2012.

[jflow78]

Is it the consensus that NFL defenses "figured out" and stopped the RO last year...Or was it more the injury, brace, other factors on the Redskins' side that made it ineffective?

I would guess it's more injury, brace, and terrible ST and defense.  

 

For some reason everyone thinks the Skins had a horrible offense, but it wasn't really the offense that was the reason for 3-13 (though the offense had lots of problems and frequently collected yardage and points after games were out of reach).

[HtownRocks111]

 (though the offense had lots of problems and frequently collected yardage and points after games were out of reach).

 

 

That 2nd part negates the first part.  So defenses were successful against our offense when the game mattered?  The bulk of yardage for teams gets built up as they are losing when the game gets out of reach.  This doesn't mean your offense is OK or even close to being good, it just means the defense let it.  True test is when the game is within 10 points with more then 6 minutes to go in the game.

 

Given that scenario, our offense was only a tad better then Denver's offense with Tebow running the show.

[Darth Tater]

Is it the consensus that NFL defenses "figured out" and stopped the RO last year, specifically the RG3/Redskins version of it (because RG3 and the 2012 Redskins seemed to get more out of it than anyone)? 

 

Or was it more the injury, brace, other factors on the Redskins' side that made it ineffective?

I don't think it was "figured out" exactly.  I don't think it was that ineffective, it was more that RG3 was often playing from behind, was not as accurate in 2013 as he was the year before and when he was, his receivers dropped the ball.  No new elements were added possibly due to RG3 being hurt, we continued running it with tight formations and the read option works best when you can keep the defense pretty much in base forms.  One thing to look at is that Morris was still pretty successful until the tail end of the season when defenses seemed to realize the QB keeper was not the threat it was in 2012.  Another thing, the RO works best when you are playing with a lead or at least in a close game.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I think that there was some bad luck involved.  I imagine the plan for Griffin was:

 

1. Rookie year: Do whatever he could do well, Read Option, run, whatever.  

2. 2013 Off-Season: Start to incorporate more traditional aspects of the drop-back game.

 

But then, BOOM, the knee went.  And out went the plan.  So Robert was forced to try and play the QB position in a way he'd never done before without the benefit of an off-season.  Throw into that some 'interesting" schemes, knee-surgery recovery, and a hole lot of useless drama and you get what we got, a complete circus.  

 

I think that if the knee hadn't gone boom, things might have been very different.  Without the knee-drama of "he lied to me" vs. "he should have pulled me out" and with a full off-season, I think that things would have been different.

 

But they weren't.  The most important aspect of a good leader is the ability to adapt.  Shanahan couldn't figure out how to adapt, and keep Griffin happy.

 

Which lead to inconsistent QB play.  I keep saying that there was a lot that went into the inconsistency. Knee, some bizarre play-calling, lack of trust, and the supporting cast regressed a little bit.  Robert has his share of the responsibility, but so do the coaches.

 

In an ideal world, they all would have been on the same page from the get-go, one voice, everybody bought in, and that could have helped a lot.  but that's not what happened. 

[jflow78]

So defenses were successful against our offense when the game mattered?...Given that scenario, our offense was only a tad better then Denver's offense with Tebow running the show.

I didn't say 100% of the time.  That's my point.  There were times last season when the offense played very well, but the defense and ST never had ANY times they played well.  The defense and ST were the biggest problems.  Our offense, like it or not, was productive, just not consistent.  

 

(Also, Tebow won a playoff game in OT for his team.  I'm no Tebow fan, but busting Denver's offense when he was there?  They won games, the Skins didn't.)

 

I agree teams can get points when games were out of reach, but the defense should also give up less yardage and points when teams have a lead (since most teams, except those with Kyle Shanahan at OC, like to protect their lead by running the ball more).  Our defense was terrible all the time, with a play here or there.  The offense actually had quarters where they looked strong, then they'd disappear.  Sort of like in the 2nd half against Denver.

 

I agree the offense wasn't good, but I don't think it's because teams suddenly learned how to beat the RO, or soley because of Griffin's knee.  I think it was a combination of things, but I still think our defense and ST were the biggest weaknesses on the team.  I'm not even sure how you'd argue against that.

[Airyx]

In 2012, 8.5% of the Redskin's offensive snaps were "read-option" plays.

 

In 2013, that number fell to 6.5% of their offensive snaps.

 

By comparison, 36% of their offensive snaps, both seasons, were zone runs (just like Terrell Davis ran in the 90s).

 

So, I think it is safe to say that the read-option had little to nothing to do with RG3's development as a WCO passer.

[Airyx]

I don't think it was "figured out" exactly.  I don't think it was that ineffective, it was more that RG3 was often playing from behind, was not as accurate in 2013 as he was the year before and when he was, his receivers dropped the ball.  No new elements were added possibly due to RG3 being hurt, we continued running it with tight formations and the read option works best when you can keep the defense pretty much in base forms.  One thing to look at is that Morris was still pretty successful until the tail end of the season when defenses seemed to realize the QB keeper was not the threat it was in 2012.  Another thing, the RO works best when you are playing with a lead or at least in a close game.

 

Like pretty much all football plays, the "read-option" was figured out decades ago.

 

Before the Redskins ever ran an IZR, every DC in the league knew how to stop it. The trick is knowing when your opponent is actually going to run it.

[jflow78]

For those of you who haven't seen it, here's John Keim's article that Airyx is referencing:

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/8344/numbers-game-redskins-and-the-zone-read

 

And here are the numbers that Keim pulled together:

 

"Here are the top 10:

• Philadelphia: 304 times (500 runs overall, so a 60.8 percent rate). It’s a bigger focus for the Eagles, in part, because they run so many packaged plays that incorporate the zone-read action. Other teams used that strategy as well, but few seemed to do it as much as the Eagles.
• Buffalo: 169 (546 runs overall; 30.9 percent)
• Carolina: 103 (483; 21.3 percent)
• Seattle: 101 (509; 19.8 percent)
• Oakland: 92 (437; 21.1 percent)
• New York Jets: 86 (493; 17.4 percent)
• Washington: 83 (453; 18.3 percent)
• San Francisco: 66 (505; 13.1 percent)
• Cincinnati: 28 (481; 6 percent)
• Miami: 27 (349; 7.7 percent)

And here are the yards per run from that look for these teams:

• Miami: 6.41
• Philadelphia: 5.67
• Oakland: 5.52
• Washington: 5.33
• Cincinnati: 5.25
• New York Jets: 4.80
• Seattle: 4.79
• Buffalo: 4.44
• Carolina: 3.95
• San Francisco: 3.48"

Thought it was very interesting that the Eagles used the RO so often and everyone though Kelly had produced this never before seen offense (not to mention he did it with a QB who isn't a runner and was successful).  Some of these teams, I had no idea they even ran the RO, and I definitely thought, because of perception through the media, that the Skins ran it more than most teams.  

 

Also thought it was interesting that Cincinatti ran it, and that San Francisco's run production was so poor with it.

[MumboSauce]

I think that there was some bad luck involved.  I imagine the plan for Griffin was:

 

1. Rookie year: Do whatever he could do well, Read Option, run, whatever.  

2. 2013 Off-Season: Start to incorporate more traditional aspects of the drop-back game.

 

But then, BOOM, the knee went.  And out went the plan.   The most important aspect of a good leader is the ability to adapt.  Shanahan couldn't figure out how to adapt, and keep Griffin happy.

 

Which lead to inconsistent QB play.  I keep saying that there was a lot that went into the inconsistency. Knee, some bizarre play-calling, lack of trust, and the supporting cast regressed a little bit.  Robert has his share of the responsibility, but so do the coaches.

 

 

 

(tried to shorten the quote as not to repost the whole thing, but it's so spot on.) You live up to your screen name.

[jflow78]

...some bizarre play-calling...

That was my biggest problem with the offense.  There were lots of times when I realized Kyle might have been an offensive genius, if he weren't such a dumb *** play caller.  Like when we had a lead against the Vikings and he passed like 16 times in a row.

[RedskinsInFebruary]

• Miami: 6.41
• Philadelphia: 5.67
• Oakland: 5.52
• Washington: 5.33
• Cincinnati: 5.25
• New York Jets: 4.80
• Seattle: 4.79
• Buffalo: 4.44
• Carolina: 3.95
• San Francisco: 3.48"

 

Also thought it was interesting that Cincinatti ran it, and that San Francisco's run production was so poor with it.

 

3 inches is pretty bad.

[jflow78]

3 inches is pretty bad.

 hahaha, I didn't catch that.  

 

That was an end-quote for anyone who didn't realize it.

[PartyPosse]

I feel last year was a culmination of everything that could go wrong did. It's ironic we are playing Houston in game 1 because i put us in the same boat. Neither team is nearly as bad as their record indicated, it is just a case of whatever could have possibly been a catastrophe was. RG3 wasn't ready, the weak WR corps showed the limitations, the O-line was simply not built for a pocket QB, Shanny spent most of the season throwing everyone under the bus, the injuries to Thomas and others,  the special teams disasters... it was just one of those seasons. 

 

In that case it may have been the best thing to happen as it was as much a reality check for a young team as anything.

[nemocystem]

For every game the offense was downright woeful, they had another where they were still pretty spectacular. ..All things considered. It was the games where we were average/middling where our shortcomings across the board really hurt our overall performance.

As VoR says...so many problems...very few answers from the ones who are supposed to have those things covered. Some games were even lost simply on the merits of questionable play calling. Denver comes to mind. ..Minnesota, SF (2 early no-huddle drives were very successful. ..only to never go back to it), & ATL. You might even add the 2nd Dallas game.

The RO will be there, but as a play-call, rather than a base offense. People do get misconceptions about our offense though because our base-O was the Pistol...to many people, Pistol = RO...which, as we know, is not necessarily true.

Furthermore...while we ran an iteration of the WCO (referred to as the ECO by lobsterman), it was not one where you asked the QB to manufacture offense based on excellence...rather, the coaches tried to manufacture offense via keen play calling, personnel match ups, & set ups. Only...they failed miserably, & a less mobile RGIII was often caught with no options on his 1st/2nd read, no time in the pocket, & no safety valve out of the backfield. The point/click options were mostly wiped out by the other team's preparation, & the Shanahan's were reluctant to provide more.

Maybe some of it had to do with protection. ..but I think that Gruden will strive to make the offense move because of its options, & will ask RGIII to make good decisions, & quicker reads as a more standard option to avoid pressure.

I believe RGIII wants this, has been practically griping for it, & now we get to see how well he does with it.

I think he'll do just fine...