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The Brendan Eich debate


Spaceman Spiff

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lol Hobby Lobby trying to get out of a law 

 

a law like the marriage laws?......obviously trying to get out of one law is more equal than getting out of another  :lol:

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So TWA....

 

If Person A supports a legal measure to prevent individuals from have the same rights that they do, based on bigotry and intolerance, it then becomes bigotry and intolerance to fight against them?

 

At what point does fighting against bigotry and intolerance become bigotry and intolerance and not fighting against social injustice?

 

And if the board members of a company work to get rid of a CEO that does not conform to the company's internal culture, and supported a bigoted and intolerant law, is that intolerant?

 

If a CEO uses his religious beliefs (part of the company's culture) to deny their employees whose beliefs differ health coverage that they had previously provided prior 2012, that's fine...or even the same thing at all?

 

If the employees denied health coverage that they previously had do not like it, they can always seek employment elsewhere...is that a valid argument?

 

If an employee of a company holds view that are contrary to the company culture and is causing a disruption, they can always seek employment elsewhere...still a valid argument?

 

 

**edited for the same reason my last post was - it's turning from a discussion about the Mozilla situation specifically to a more general tolerance vs intolerance discussion.

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so a witch hunt for anyone that disagrees with me is cool....they are obviously bigots and intolerant.

 

how you use your power reveals much

 

 

lol a witch hunt.

 

Customer X says "Our customers don't like your CEO's stance. If you don't change it we will stop using your product"

 

 

It's called "the free market".

 

Mozilla can keep him. They're under no obligation to fire him. No law is making them fire him.   Mozilla decided they would rather have the customers because he's replaceable. With their market share dropping like a stone, the few people who will promote their product are pretty valuable... and apparently more valuable to them than this guy.

 

It is ridiculous listening to people who pretend to be conservatives whine about this stuff.

 

If their customers didn't care where he donated his money, he'd be OK. But if you put yourself in a position to cost your company money because of something you do publicly, well,   who's fault is that? And why should the company ignore it? It is completely counter to their entire reason for existence. People are free to speak with their own buying dollar. 

 

Why do you hate America?

 

~Bang

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What this guy did in his personal life (contributing to Prop 8) is his business, as long as he didn't use company funds.

 

Hobby Lobby wants to deny its employees access to comprehensive healthcare based on its corporate officers' belief systems, which is affecting directly their employees.

 

As far as Eich is concerned, I don't see where what he did involved his employees.

 

And we have since learned that after their argument before the Supremes, HL has hypocrisy written all over it.

 

I use Firefox and Thunderbird/Lightening and I continue to do so.  And Javascript is so ubiquitous that one can't avoid/boycott using it because of Eich.  And besides, they are free, my dollars didn't go to Eich so he could go spend them on things I don't agree with.

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we will see how the market responds to their tolerance and diversity. :rolleyes: 

there are no winners in that America

 

 

Hey, the world is what it is. 

Information travels fast. If you value your job, you better weigh what you do in public against whether it can cost you.

 

Personal responsibility, you know. A good ol' conservative value.

 

 

~Bang

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Now, I do think that there ought to be some privacy rights that should be protected. 

 

IMO, no, the typical employer should not be permitted to find out which political causes a potential employee has, or similar non-work-related things.  (Facebook pages, anybody?) 

 

I do think there should be exceptions.  For example, for some jobs where the employee is being hired to serve as the face of the company.  (I think a lot of high profile actors fall in this category.  And I could see the argument that CEO does, too.) 

 

(And, obviously, if said employee stands up in public and announces their views, (and, in some cases, actually uses their job as a soap box), then they really can't claim that the employer is obligated to act like he didn't see it.) 

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The moral of the story, don't contribute to anything you believe in.  Keep the money all to yourself so nobody can judge you.

 

And I would agree with you Larry, the problem is he would have been fine with his privacy protection had his views been for gay marriage....the topic of the times.

 

As I tell my chatty wife all the time in public conversation, less is more.

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And I would agree with you Larry, the problem is he would have been fine with his privacy protection had his views been for gay marriage....the topic of the times.

Not sure I'm understanding your point.

You saying that, if he had been for gay marriage, then his views would not have been his employer's (or the public's) business?

Or is this one of those attempts to claim that only the people who support gay marriage do things like point out people's political positions?

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Not sure I'm understanding your point.

You saying that, if he had been for gay marriage, then his views would not have been his employer's (or the public's) business?

Or is this one of those attempts to claim that only the people who support gay marriage do things like point out people's political positions?

 

No had he supported gay marriage his privacy would have been fine :)  Ya never know when the tides will go against you.  His donation was in 2008.  Tides have changed a lot since 2008.  That's why I don't donate to any cause, just keep it myself.  Might come back to haunt me.

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So TWA....

 

If Person A supports a legal measure to prevent individuals from have the same rights that they do, based on bigotry and intolerance, it then becomes bigotry and intolerance to fight against them?

 

fight against them in the same manner they are?.....or go after them at work and home?

 

I think you see the difference.

 

if the right ya claim even exists 

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Interesting topic indeed.

 

Where and how I spend my money, is my business, what I believe, is my business. Who I vote for...etc.

 

If I choose to share that information...and leave it out there for others to judge ? That's on me. That information should be PRIVATE.

 

Is he out there promoting ? Ehh...

 

Not really. I don't think he is anti-gay or intolerant. I feel as if he has he beliefs and supports them privately.

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I don't have a problem with him being fired.

 

CEO's are not regular employees. Had Eich been a mid-level developer and he was fired for this reason I, and I think most folks, would see as inappropriate.

 

But a CEO is not a regular employee and their views are no longer personal - they reflect millions of stockholders, investors, partners, and employees. It comes with earning the big bucks.

 

Hypothetical.

 

Lets say 5 years ago Eich had publicly stated that he thought interracial marriages were morally wrong. A perfectly legal opinion. Also an opinion that some Americans do have sadly (see the cheerio ad controversy).

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fight against them in the same manner they are?.....or go after them at work and home?

 

I think you see the difference.

 

if the right ya claim even exists 

 

It probably would have helped had I waited until I figured out my quoting issue, and stated my point better to boot. I was responding to your witch hunt post.

 

In 2008, Eich financially supported a law that many, including board members and employees of the company he had just been appointed to run, considered bigoted and intolerant and contrary to the company's culture or identity.

 

In 2012, the employees and board members have the right to not be happy about that. Once it became public knowledge, those who use Mozilla products, or have special features specifically for use of Mozilla products, such as OKCupid, have the right to be unhappy about it. They have the right to voice that unhappiness, especially as it a pattern of supporting causes and candidates that display bigotry towards groups such as homosexuals and ethnic minorities, such as supporting Pat Buchanan. This is exceberated by the fact that, as CEO, he would be the "face" of the company.

 

However, you are claiming this constitutes a "witch hunt"....no, it constitutes voicing their opinions on a CEO's pattern of behavior. A "witch hunt" would be spending time and money investigating a person or group in the hopes of finding something...anything...by which an attack can be made (see the Birther movement as an example), not voicing displeasure concerning information freely available to anyone as part of campaign reform.

 

See the difference?

 

And just to reiterate what I said in my first post, I personally do not think he should be been forced out for supporting Prop 8, or Pat Buchanan, just that I understood why decesions were made from a business perspective when the different factors/actions were taken as a whole.

 

It probably would have helped the situation in his favor had Eich been more willing to discuss his decesions, something he danced around before resigning and, at least as of today, still is. It might not have helped much, but then again it might have been enough to salvage the situation in his favor.

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Pattern of behavior?  :rolleyes: ....I assume you are not speaking of his selfless enabling of open source and the legions that benefit from it(including a large gay%)

 

The users ,supporters and contributors are certainly free to respond to both his actions AND to Mozillas

 

The notion he should recant and prostrate himself for his heresy is a familiar one to me.....and one I also reject.

 

 

If Eich is a problem there is no solution

 

add

https://input.mozilla.org/en-US/

 

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Pattern of behavior?  :rolleyes: ....I assume you are not speaking of his selfless enabling of open source and the legions that benefit from it(including a large gay%)

 

The users ,supporters and contributors are certainly free to respond to both his actions AND to Mozillas

 

The notion he should recant and prostrate himself for his heresy is a familiar one to me.....and one I also reject.

 

 

If Eich is a problem there is no solution

 

And because he does A, that means its ok if he also does B? Since he was a founder of an organization that releases open-sourced web tools, that means its ok that he made donations to a politician with a long history of racist and anti-gay remarks in addition to supporting a law that targeted homosexuals who wished to have the same rights he did? Individuals have to be either-or, one cannot say "Doing A was great, but doing B was wrong"?

 

And yup, both sides are free to respond. Did I at any point say otherwise? I just do not agree with one side's response, while you disagree with the other side's. I am not the one that is up in arms because people chose to voice their opinions.

 

And I am not sure where you are getting from my post that he had to "recant and prostrate himself". I said he should have been more willing to discuss his decisions, not run from them. 

 

Are you intentionally trying to twist what I say to try and make some statement, or is what I am saying honestly not being understood?

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