Ronda Rousey's Strategy to Beat Floyd Mayweather Jr.

[JMS]

Royce had 5 fights in 5 years in Japan. 4 against grapplers his size with no power, and one against a 600 lb man who could barely move. It's not even in the same realm as what he was going through in the UFC. Those fights in Japan had shorter time limits than 30 minutes, aside from the Saku fight.

Wait I'm confused... Royce left the UFC to compete in Japan's Pride Grand Prix and Pride Shockwave... Didn't you say...

 

Pride's heavyweight division was one of the most loaded divisions in HISTORY

So which is it? Pride was awsome your take from post #88, or Pride sucked from post #121 ?

Royce didn't fight anybody in Japan "his size"...  The closest guy to his size had 12 lbs on him....

Nobuhiko Takada +34 lbs (pride)

Kazushi Sakuraba +12 lbs (pride)

Hidehiko Yoshida +50 lbs (pride) Olympics Gold Medalist Judo

Akebono Tarō (Chad Rowan) Sumo Grand master +339lbs

Hideo Tokoro -41 lbs

 

Those fights in Japan had shorter time limits than 30 minutes, aside from the Saku fight.

 

Yeah but they didn't blow up the ground game either in Pride. Also the money was better.

Royces fight against Kazushi Sakuraba went 90 minutes..

The fight against Yoshida went 20 minutes.. ( 2 10 minute rounds).

  

Ken Shamrock started learning BJJ right after what happened to him at UFC 1. He was more aware of Royce's game the second time around, he just kneeled there all fight long and played it safe as all heck.

In Shamrock vs Gracie II, Shamrock had his bacon saved by the new rules. Everytime Gracie got him to the mat, the refferee blew the fight up and they restarted on their feet. The very best outcome for Shamrock, the very worst outcome for Gracie. Gracie who almost had his head knocked off after one such repositioning. Shamrock play'ed it safe... hell yes he did.. he was wise too... He was afraid of Royce who had submitted him the last time they met after less than a minute. Effectively taking away the ground game gave Shamrock +50 lbs, a huge advantage on the 175lb Gracie, Shamrock used that advantage to stalemate the match.. which was pathetic.

 

Wrestlers emphasizing good takedown defense and huge striking power like Tank and Don Frye were just about to hit the scene. Royce had an amazing run, but I think he got out of there at the right time.

Royce was there to showoff his families innovation. Gracie's BJJ. He did that in dramatic fashion as a 175 lb fighter regularly defeating guys with 20, 50 even 75 lb advantages on him.. He fought in five UFC leaving undefeated(11-0-1). He left after the UFC decided to change the rules to make it harder for him to compete... The folks he defeated in his five UFC tournaments went on to win the next 4 UFC tournaments under the new rules.    The new rules emphasized striking to the detriment of smaller men, and deemphasized the grueling ground game which the Gracies had made famous.

 

So they went over the PPV time slot at UFC 4, but realize that Gracie/Severn only lasted 15 minutes before Royce subbed him. A 15 minute fight is to blame for them installing a 30 minute time limit? The event ran too long, not the fight itself. So please, keep going on about how the "Gracie Guard" is blown up and negated when you install a 30 minute time limit.

Prior to UFC 4 no UFC finals had lasted longer than 1:44 seconds. No Gracie bout in the UFC had lasted longer than 5 minutes. And yes one of the way's the Gracies had always defeated opponents was to take them to the mat and wrap them up, tire them out, and submit them. The entire family and style was geared to that tactic. Time limits took away that advantage.. More importantly though was taking away the ground game itself. The new rules in place for Shamrock II allowed the refferee to stop the ground game and restart the fight from a standing position when he felt the ground game was dragging on. Dragging on the ground game was something the gracie form of BJJ advocated for.. Gracie BJJ was most vulnerable in the standing position which now became a mandated central part of the UFC.   The UFC after the Severn match decided to try to emphasize the more exciting stricking and de-emphasize what they considered the ploding grind it out style BJJ was famous for up to that point.

 

Royce didn't need that much time to triangle Severn from the guard, or reverse Shamrock from that position. He didn't need 45 minutes to land the armbar on Kimo from the guard. He armbarred Keith Hackney from the guard 5 minutes in to the fight.

Exactly... Those fighters couldn't rely on the referee to save them by blowing up the fight and restarting it from a standing postion like Shamrock did in Shamrock II. Gracie had proved that if you let him fight he would win. It might take him 15 minutes to grind down someone with a 75lb advantage on him like Severn, or a 50lb advantage like Shamrock... But he would win. But when you took away his ground game and asked a 175 lb man to slug it out with those larger stronger men his technique was taken away. If you make it more about the standing fighting, blow up the take downs; it's an entirely different contest.

[JMS]

Not really sure what you're getting at but again, what I posted earlier still stands, political pressure is what ultimately changed the rules of the UFC and led to the time limits/rounds that we see today. Time limits were not introduced to nullify BJJ, which is what you seem to be saying. 

 

Time limits and rules to void the ground game were introduced in 1995... after Royce and Severn went 15 minutes and the PPV audience missed the finish of UFC4 fight  12/1994.  These changes did not result in more states sanctioning UFC fights.    These rules changes resulted in Royce Gracie leaving the UFC in 1995 before any national protests. 

 

UFC 8 in 1996 was the first UFC match to incure national critism from the Senate(McCain) and .. and Cable TV providers (cable vision banned it).

 

UFC 9 resulted in McCain's lawsuit which pulled the UFC's PPV broadcasts from a bunch of important cable systems including TCI which hurt UFC's ability to draw an audience.

 

UFC 10 saw the venue change from  Providence RI to Bimington Al due to sanctioning issues.

 

UFC 12 was the first UFC to use weight classes and the protests and sanctioning problems pushed the venue from NY, Oregon, and finally to Alabama.

 

UFC 14 was the first UFC to require protective gloves

 

UFC 15 saw even more rule changes.. no kicking down oponents, hair pulling,  various joint manipulations were all banned.

 

UFC went undergound due to protests in 1997.

 

Rule changes implemented by the Zuffa Group and Dana White who purchasedd the UFC in the early 2000's went into effect in 2002-3,  resulting in the UFC getting varous states to sanction it's events amd bringing the UFC more in line with MMA.

 

Two different and unrealated set of UFC rule changes.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

- Pride's Heavyweight division during TIM SYLVIA'S reign.

- I said "aside from the Saku fight", Saku is short for Sakuraba.

- Royce vs. Shamrock wasn't part of UFC 5's tournament, that's why Severn won it. Taktarov won UFC 6, Marco Ruas won UFC 7 and Don Frye won UFC 8. So you're completely wrong.

- Sakuraba, Yoshida and Takada were not even remotely the monsters the UFC was rapidly bringing in. They only wanted submissions just like Royce did. Royce was in the same grand prix as Mark Coleman, Mark Kerr and Igor Vovchancyn. Wow. He lost to Saku though, and never fought any of them. That would've been insane.

- Royce/Shamrock II was not stood up over and over again. Shamrock was in his guard all fight long. Even in the overtime round, the fight went right to the ground and ended in a stalemate. If Shamrock nailed Royce after a much needed standup, I missed it. Can't make it through that fight without falling asleep.

- You're completely exaggerating how they'd stand up fights in haste after UFC 4. You make it sound like they turned it in to kickboxing. The suggestion that the "Gracie Guard" is blown up because of occasional standups is wrong. He left the UFC, not because jiu jitsu was hampered in some wild fashion, but because of his strict, traditionalistic views of what a fight should be. He was more offended, than anything. It's what he says in his book.

[JMS]

I have to admit, while I enjoy watching MMA now, I miss the absurdity and oddities of the early UFC's; I had the first 7 or 8 or them on tape.  Harold Howard's awesome catchphrase, a 180 pound guy fighting a 600 pound guy, Keith Hackney's ball punch of doom, and the fact the guys listed their disciplines as things like "Exotics" or "S.A.F.T.A." or "Pit Fighting."  That stuff was great.

 

you know the spectical I miss.  Tank Abbot..  He was a big rednneck with absolutely no ground game but a great right cross.   He was pretty smart too, the moment you took him down he tapped out..  It was great how many guys he put no the canvas with one shot..  Big bald redneck that he was....

 

I forget which UFC match it was but Tank didn't enter for some reason.. probable hurt or something.. so they hired him to do color comentating.   Tank was a great color man..   Kind of like John Madden discusing offensive linemen drueling on themselves in Football.

At one point the other commentator asks Tank what he was doing with all his spar time since he didn't have to train for this roundn of fights..  Tank talked about not really training for the UFC and getting in Bar fights..    Tank Abbot was a spectacle and a crowd favorite..

I don't think he ever won UFC..    I think he might have gotten in the finals though..   He was a wild card who had an uncanny way of winning fights he really had no business even competing in.

[JMS]

- Royce/Shamrock II was not stood up over and over again. Shamrock was in his guard all fight long. Even in the overtime round, the fight went right to the ground and ended in a stalemate. If Shamrock nailed Royce after a much needed standup, I missed it. Can't make it through that fight without falling asleep.

 

I agree it was a very boreing "fight".  a 250lb man hanging onto a 175 man for dear life for 37 minutes.   It was ridiculous.

 

 

as by the end of the fight Gracie's right eye was swollen shut. However, the swollen eye was a result of a standing punch due to a sudden change of the rules in which both of the fighters were restarted on the feet.^%5B7%5D After this fight the Gracies left the UFC.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royce_Gracie

 

 

 

 

This UFC  (UFC5 vs Ken Shamrock)  event was the last with the involvement of Rorion Gracie, ostensibly because the introduction of new rules had diluted Gracie's (and his family's) vision for the UFC and vale tudo fighting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_5

 

[JMS]

- Royce vs. Shamrock wasn't part of UFC 5's tournament, that's why Severn won it. Taktarov won UFC 6, Marco Ruas won UFC 7 and Don Frye won UFC 8. So you're completely wrong

 

Pedantics....    Royce vs. Shamrock was part of UFC 5... it was the Superfight championship.. It was the featured match of UFC 5 which pitted the reigning champion against the winner of the previous UFC tournament.   Nobody celebrated winning the tournament phase of the UFC because that was just the prerequisits to getting into the championship fight in the next UFC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_5

 

 

The winner of the championship was the champion of that UFC bout.

 

Shamrock won against Severn UFC 6

Shamrock / Taktarov drew UFC 7

Shamrock won UFC8

Severn won UFC9

[#98QBKiller]

Time limits and rules to void the ground game were introduced in 1995... after Royce and Severn went 15 minutes and the PPV audience missed the finish of UFC4 fight  12/1994.  These changes did not result in more states sanctioning UFC fights.    These rules changes resulted in Royce Gracie leaving the UFC in 1995 before any national protests. 

 

 

The rules would evolve constantly for each of the early UFCs, but I am telling you two things:

 

1) time limits were never added in an effort to "void the ground game" 

 

and 

 

2) politcal pressure from the outside is what ultimately brought us the rules of today

 

 

Most of the Gracie clan probably did not like time limits or the new rules, but getting rid of the Gracies or the ground game wasn't the purpose of changing the rules in the first place. Also, not having weight classes was just as much to blame for the length of the Royce/Dan Severn match as Severn outweighed him by about 90 pounds and rode on top of him for that entire fight. And on the very next card Royce vs Ken Shamrock ran for 36 minutes and the tournament matches that night had time limits of 20 minutes. 

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Pedantics.... Royce vs. Shamrock was part of UFC 5... it was the Superfight championship.. It was the featured match of UFC 5 which pitted the reigning champion against the winner of the previous UFC tournament. Nobody celebrated winning the tournament phase of the UFC because that was just the prerequisits to getting into the championship fight in the next UFC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_5

The winner of the championship was the champion of that UFC bout.

Shamrock won against Severn UFC 6

Shamrock / Taktarov drew UFC 7

Shamrock won UFC8

Severn won UFC9

Wow, good call. I was thinking tournament winners, not superfight winners. You're right, I'm wrong. Here's your Wikipedia blue belt. My trivia skills are shaken. I gotta start Wikipediaing this MMA stuff.

The competition was getting thicker, and the secret of jiu jitsu was out. I think the competition was going to catch up to him sooner rather than later. Even his past opponents were now aware of the art. I'm glad some monster didn't eventually get the best of him. Maybe he would've run the table thru UFC 9, but I'd bet against it. Royce's little butt had already strained through a serious gauntlet, and he didn't even try anything against Ken the second time. I think he was cooked. It comes down to opinion, we will never know.

Jiu jitsu, the guard, they have always worked. Even with mere 5 minute rounds and the threat of referee standups. You don't need to win via starvation from that position.

[JMS]

The competition was getting thicker, and the secret of jiu jitsu was out. I think the competition was going to catch up to him sooner rather than later. Even his past opponents were now aware of the art. I'm glad some monster didn't eventually get the best of him. Maybe he would've run the table thru UFC 9, but I'd bet against it. Royce's little butt had already strained through a serious gauntlet, and he didn't even try anything against Ken the second time. I think he was cooked. It comes down to opinion, we will never know.

Jiu jitsu, the guard, they have always worked. Even with mere 5 minute rounds and the threat of referee standups. You don't need to win via starvation from that position.

Yeah I can see that.. As I remember when Royce left the UFC there was another Gracie protege who went into the UFC. A young guy. As I remember he was another light BJJ guy... not one of the actual Gracie brothers though. He was a light weight, and he entered into the heavy weight divisions following in Royces foot steps. As I remember he was still able to win against the big boys... He had more striking power than Royce and was well trained in the ground game. I saw him fight in two UFC's and he did pretty well. Let me look and see if I can find his name and see if my memory serves correctly.

The thing I remember about the UFC compared to modern MMA which I'm not really well versed in.. But in the modern MMA there seems to be a lot of good talent. Talent runs pretty deep. As I remember the old UFC there were half or two thirds of the guys who you knew had no real chance. Guys like Tank Abbot who had glaring weaknesses in their game. Some Guys who would tap out quickly if things didn't go their way.

Anyway let me see if I can find that other Gracie protege and see how he actually ended up.

( I believe I'm thinking of Vitor Vieira Belfort... He won the Heavyweight division of UFC 12 in 1997.. He was like 20 years old, 200 lbs and fought 235 lb Tra Telligman and 325lb Scott Ferrozzo using striking and BJJ. "The phenom"

So he was 25 lbs heavier than Royce and it looks like he gave up on fighting the heavy weights after making his way into the championship match and getting TKO'ed by Randy Couture and then became a light heavy weight champion.. )

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Vitor still actually fights, it's crazy. He almost won Fighter of the Year last year. Alot of people argue that he should have. He had 3 early round headkick knockouts against top 10 opponents. He was slated to fight for the middleweight title coming up, until they changed a rule a couple weeks ago that prevents he and other fighters from continuing testosterone replacement therapy. He bowed out. Perhaps because there's not enough time to lower his testosterone levels, perhaps because he knows he won't perform as well.

At any rate, Vitor has been a BJJ blackbelt since he was young, but he has always been known for his incredible hand speed and power (and now, his headkicks). He rarely uses his BJJ compared to how much he uses striking.

Royce was a BJJ fighter through and through, it's hard to find fighters like him in the history of MMA. Mostly because it's really hard to keep winning being a specialist in one art. Jake Shields, Demian Maia and Fabricio Werdum are extremely BJJ heavy, but even Jake and Demian have good wrestling abilities, and Fabricio has pretty good striking.

[JMS]

Vitor still actually fights, it's crazy. He almost won Fighter of the Year last year.

At any rate, Vitor has been a BJJ blackbelt since he was young, but he has always been known for his incredible hand speed and power (and now, his headkicks). He rarely uses his BJJ compared to how much he uses striking.

I can't believe he's still fighting. I think this is the guy I'm thinking of. He trained with the Gracies as I remember. He did have great hand speed back them too. He had an un-Royce like talent for knocking opponents out early in the first round with a right cross. But if the opponent was a good striker Victor could take them to the mat and submit them too.

When Royce left the UFC, victor was the replacement.. the up in coming star. I brought him up to answer the thought Royce might not have been able to compete in the UFC post 1995. Since victor was a lite BJJ fighter too, entering the heavy weight division, at least at that time and he competed successfully. After researching it though the point isn't particularly valid. Victor was bigger and stronger than Royce. And his superior striking ability gave him different weapons suited for standing Royce lacked. Victor's more different than I remember.

Interesting to me that he's still fighting.

[Destino]

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/4/15/5619080/ufc-joe-rogan-ronda-rousey-beat-floyd-mayweather-in-a-fight-mma-news

Joe Rogan said Rousey would win on sportsnation a week ago.

Dana White is on highly questionable right now and he said she'd win and that she'd hurt him.

[JoeWolf990]

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/4/15/5619080/ufc-joe-rogan-ronda-rousey-beat-floyd-mayweather-in-a-fight-mma-news

Joe Rogan said Rousey would win on sportsnation a week ago.

Dana White is on highly questionable right now and he said she'd win and that she'd hurt him.

two unbiased people.

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

Anthony Pettis said Floyd would win.

I'm pretty sure if Floyd agreed to it, Dana would set up Ronda vs Floyd, but he still won't set up Cyborg and Ronda.

[Slateman]

Rousey would win and it wouldn't even be close. Floyd would have no freaking clue what to do once Rousey took him down.

[Predicto]

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/4/15/5619080/ufc-joe-rogan-ronda-rousey-beat-floyd-mayweather-in-a-fight-mma-news

Joe Rogan said Rousey would win on sportsnation a week ago.

Dana White is on highly questionable right now and he said she'd win and that she'd hurt him.

 

Of course Rogan said that.  That's his job.

 

I have said that I think Rousey would have a reasonable shot at winning if the fight happened tomorrow and Floyd hadn't prepared  for grappling, but even then there is a good chance he would  knock her out before she took him down, or maybe even just pound her head into the mat with no technique.   And I certainly do not believe it would take an athlete like Mayweather a full year to learn enough to beat her at her own game.  His inherent physical advantage is just too extreme.  

[DM72]

I can't believe people are still on this. Floyd shouldn't even give this a thought. He would gain absolutely nothing by knocking this girl out.

[Predicto]

I can't believe people are still on this. Floyd shouldn't even give this a thought. He would gain absolutely nothing by knocking this girl out.

 

He's not giving it a thought.  Hell, Rousey didn't even give it a thought.  She just answered a question about what she would try and do IF she fought Mayweather.   

[Destino]

Of course Rogan said that. That's his job.

I have said that I think Rousey would have a reasonable shot at winning if the fight happened tomorrow and Floyd hadn't prepared for grappling, but even then there is a good chance he would knock her out before she took him down, or maybe even just pound her head into the mat with no technique. And I certainly do not believe it would take an athlete like Mayweather a full year to learn enough to beat her at her own game. His inherent physical advantage is just too extreme.

I just think its funny that the UFC head and their main announcer both went on espn saying their female champ could crush boxing's pound for pound champ and no one has run with the implication of that statement. They are essentially saying boxing is nice, but those guys aren't really fighters. Rousey being an MMA champ, thus a real fighter, would not only beat boxing's best but "hurt him."

[Predicto]

I just think its funny that the UFC head and their main announcer both went on espn saying their female champ could crush boxing's pound for pound champ and no one has run with the implication of that statement. They are essentially saying boxing is nice, but those guys aren't really fighters. Rousey being an MMA champ, thus a real fighter, would not only beat boxing's best but "hurt him."

 

No they aren't.  They are saying that their sport doesn't operate under the same rules as boxing,and if you aren't trained for their sport, you will have a rough time.  

 

Should Michael Jordan be offended if someone says that Serena Williams might beat him at tennis?

[Forehead]

I feel even more comfortable in my position now, knowing that Slateman took the opposite side.