an unbiased assessment of RG3's value

[HogHeaven1983]

This offseason, I wish RG3 could go to a QB camp taught by P. Manning, T. Brady, or some other elite NFL QB.  He needs a lot of work learning how to play the position. He seems to be regressing badly with the current coaching staff.  

[rg31212]

Hi Everyone, longtime reader of the forums, finally decided to get an account.  This probably deserves its own thread (surprised there wasnt a thread on it already), but I'm curious about what people think of this report:

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000289781/article/redskins-officials-rgiii-feared-job-loss-to-kirk-cousins

 

"NFL Media's Albert Breer wrote in his weekly "Inside The NFL" notebook that Washington Redskins coaches picked up on an "insecurity" with Griffin this season, with some members of the organization concluding that Griffin rushed back from his knee injury out of fear Kirk Cousins could take his starting job."

 

"Baylor never wavered on Griffin, even after he suffered his first ACL tear during his sophomore year. The NFL is a far more cutthroat arena, of course, and Breer postulates that Griffin was smart enough to recognize that as he went through his recovery process."

[jadams5214]

Nowhere near ready to give up on RG III at this point but as of right now it's hard to imagine the Skins getting back what they gave up to draft him.

 

At best a 1st rd pick and another pick such as a 3rd rounder.

 

Hard to envision anyone giving up 2 first rounders at this point for a young QB with great potential but one that has also played poorly this season, had character issues raised and suffered a major injury last season.

 

Everyone knew the exorbitantly high price the Skins paid for drafting RG III --- if he doesn't turn out to be a HOF caliber QB for a decade or more then it will hard to justify giving up so much to get him...

[MrJL]

Nowhere near ready to give up on RG III at this point but as of right now it's hard to imagine the Skins getting back what they gave up to draft him.

 

At best a 1st rd pick and another pick such as a 3rd rounder.

 

Hard to envision anyone giving up 2 first rounders at this point for a young QB with great potential but one that has also played poorly this season, had character issues raised and suffered a major injury last season.

 

Everyone knew the exorbitantly high price the Skins paid for drafting RG III --- if he doesn't turn out to be a HOF caliber QB for a decade or more then it will hard to justify giving up so much to get him...

 

 

the average guy early in his career shouldn't be worth what you traded to get him.  THe trick is if at the end of his career it looks like a good deal

[sportjunkie07]

Rg3 at this moment would garner 2 first founders on the open market.

give him time, he'll be fine

[jadams5214]

the average guy early in his career shouldn't be worth what you traded to get him.  THe trick is if at the end of his career it looks like a good deal

RGIII is not an "average guy" which is the point.  It's not his fault the Skins gave up so much to get him but it definitely increases the expectations of what kind of QB he will become long term.

 

For example Alfred Morris would definitely get more in return than a 6th rd pick.  Kirk Cousins would likely get more than a 4th rd pick also.

 

Agree that RGIII's career with the Skins will determine whether it was the right move or not.

 

As I said - no one can deny the price paid for RG III was incredibly high.  If he doesn't turn out to be a long term, great QB for the Skins leading them to repeated playoff appearances and hopefully a SB - the trade to draft him will be looked at as yet another organizational failure for a once proud franchise which has been mired in mediocrity for much of the past two decades...

[skinfan2k]

i don't think people realize the power of being in DC over being in ****ty places like Indy and Seattle. 

[MrJL]

RGIII is not an "average guy" which is the point.  It's not his fault the Skins gave up so much to get him but it definitely increases the expectations of what kind of QB he will become long term.

 

For example Alfred Morris would definitely get more in return than a 6th rd pick.  Kirk Cousins would likely get more than a 4th rd pick also.

 

Agree that RGIII's career with the Skins will determine whether it was the right move or not.

 

As I said - no one can deny the price paid for RG III was incredibly high.  If he doesn't turn out to be a long term, great QB for the Skins leading them to repeated playoff appearances and hopefully a SB - the trade to draft him will be looked at as yet another organizational failure for a once proud franchise which has been mired in mediocrity for much of the past two decades...

 

no, no... just no.  As long as people around here have been complaining about the skins needing to do anything necessary to get a franchise QB no one here has the right to complain about how much was given up.  

[TD Riggo]

Useless thread full of hogwash!

[darrelgreenie]

Hi Everyone, longtime reader of the forums, finally decided to get an account. This probably deserves its own thread (surprised there wasnt a thread on it already), but I'm curious about what people think of this report:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000289781/article/redskins-officials-rgiii-feared-job-loss-to-kirk-cousins

"NFL Media's Albert Breer wrote in his weekly "Inside The NFL" notebook that Washington Redskins coaches picked up on an "insecurity" with Griffin this season, with some members of the organization concluding that Griffin rushed back from his knee injury out of fear Kirk Cousins could take his starting job."

"Baylor never wavered on Griffin, even after he suffered his first ACL tear during his sophomore year. The NFL is a far more cutthroat arena, of course, and Breer postulates that Griffin was smart enough to recognize that as he went through his recovery process."

'Reports' like this just reaffirm that someone inside Ashburn is running their mouth and needs to STFU in the worst way.

It reaks of a not so subtly blame shift and like all the recent 'reports' paints Griffin in a negative light. Never mind that the reports aren't even accurate. The report about Griff asking bad plays not be shown like at Baylor proved to be false on all sides: Baylor refuted the report, Mike Shanahan refuted the report and Griffin refuted the report. BUT someone inside Ashburn created the report.

If I was Snyder I would be livid.

[sharkproof]

Rg3 at this moment would garner 2 first founders on the open market.

give him time, he'll be fine

in the CFL maybe... Nah.. I don't even know about that.  

[Momma There Goes That Man]

 

 

RG is going to have to change a multitude of things that he has historically done playing QB and he's going to have to learn how to work inside of the pocket with a sense of calm but urgency at the same time.  That in itself is a conundrum, but that's what the position demands.

Did you watch him in college and last year? He did this stuff pretty regularly and he didn't run a read option based offense in college either

[TheMalcolmConnection]

This thread reminds me of:

 

 

Very fair and unbalanced.

[sharkproof]

Did you watch him in college and last year? He did this stuff pretty regularly and he didn't run a read option based offense in college either

Yes I did and posted that he was good in space more than in the pocket.   He was amazing on rollouts and when force from the pocket, but I said that he was not nearly as good in the pocket.  Also, take into account that college football for all intents and purposes is much slower on BOTH sides of the ball and that drawing conclusions on college success QB wise has been a crapshoot for many would be in next sure thing year in and year out.  Far more wash out than pan out.  I won't bother going into names because the list is long and tattered.  There is no lock on who can and cannot do it.  There are ones that show more promise than others but realizing that promise is altogether another thing.  RG wasn't raised by a Manning, nor did he play at a college that ran a pro set offense.  He doesn't know how to operate in that environment especially in the NFL.  He has much to learn and conquer before he is anointed as elite at this position.  Regardless of his athleticism, he is not a lock at this point.  He hasn't shown even flashes this year of getting it.  Last year was a guise that exploited that athleticism and hid his deficiencies.  He is certainly intelligent enough but that isn't necessarily the "x" factor that separates him from the ones that do and don't make it.  That isn't to say that he can't and won't improve, I have little doubt that he will based on his  work ethic, but still whether he makes that monumental leap into the rarified air of the true elites remains to be seen.

[TD Riggo]

This thread reminds me of:

 

 

Very fair and unbalanced.

 

 

You could say that about at least 6 other "news" channels.  And sports channels as well. Like BSPN!

[kjames35]

Take a look at this photo. It shows a very (very) clean pocket for the QB, right? Ironically, this QB managed to throw an interception.

http://s22.postimg.org/eo5ksq00x/Picture1.jpg

 

I say that to say this.....either you're a good QB that sees the field, makes good decisions and good throws or you're not. RGIII could have this type of pocket every game and still manage to make errant throws, take a stupid sack or make a bad decision based on what we see now. Injuries have nothing to do with it. If you go back and read his scouting report, what you're seeing now is his MO.

IMO, Last year was magical.

 

All those in denial, read the negatives in his scouting report: 

http://www.profootballweekly.com/prospects/player/robert-griffin-iii-10/

[kjames35]

i don't think people realize the power of being in DC over being in ****ty places like Indy and Seattle. 

Maybe you should be placing the word ****ty before the DC. The only power in this town comes from a overzealous media. Its one of the reasons teams in this town do so terrible. There's no such word as development here. Everyone wants instant gratification. Every two years, DC media is talking about firing the coach or playing the backup QB. RGIII needs to develop!!! We see that clearly!!! RGIII has bad habits as it relates to playing QB in the NFL. It's going to take years before we see RGIII playing that position like it should be played. Most of it is getting completely comfortable with defensive looks at game speed and running the playbook like a machine. Bringing in a new coach would only stump that growth. See Jason Campbell and every one of the 27 other starting Redskins QB they've had since Theisman played the position 28 years ago. Stay the course!!!!

[Rodriggo]

RG3 is simply a slower more injury prone version of Michael Vick, without the dogs.

 

Awesome analysis HogHeaven1983!

 

Not even two years into a career and you're out on RG3.....terrific.

 

Tho you're right, his play this season has really been the main reason they won't make it to 6-10.

 

You know, b/c the rest of the team is running like clockwork.

 

Just curious, how do you feel about Shanahan after not 2 but 4 years to get this to respectability?

 

I'm assuming (emphasize assuming) you're a fan, but this mentaility is pure poison on top of being inaccurate.

[MrJL]

Take a look at this photo. It shows a very (very) clean pocket for the QB, right? Ironically, this QB managed to throw an interception.

http://s22.postimg.org/eo5ksq00x/Picture1.jpg

 

I say that to say this.....either you're a good QB that sees the field, makes good decisions and good throws or you're not. RGIII could have this type of pocket every game and still manage to make errant throws, take a stupid sack or make a bad decision based on what we see now. Injuries have nothing to do with it. If you go back and read his scouting report, what you're seeing now is his MO.

IMO, Last year was magical.

 

All those in denial, read the negatives in his scouting report: 

http://www.profootballweekly.com/prospects/player/robert-griffin-iii-10/

 

 

reading some of those negatives based on his two years here, I can see some of them, others.. are they on drugs?  Fumbles, pocket ghosts?

[dallasfan]

LMAO at RG3 being only worth a #2.  I think he was over rated among skins fans, but even though I have a lower opinion of him than skins fans, I'd take him and his flaws over every QB in the 2014 draft (and I'd take several QBs in this draft over any of the QBs in the 2013 draft).

[sharkproof]

All those in denial, read the negatives in his scouting report: 

http://www.profootballweekly.com/prospects/player/robert-griffin-iii-10/

Though many may not click and read the link...

 

I think it was a "crystal ball"  The positives were spot on for last year.  This year not throwing the long ball as well.

 

the negatives are everything that is happening.

 

Lacks ideal height. Ran a spread-option offense featuring many simple, one-look reads and lateral passes that inflated his statistics. Works exclusively out of the shotgun. Will use a side-arm and three-quarters delivery with a low release point that leads to batted balls. Makes his receivers adjust to the ball. Average anticipatory instincts and timing — is late to deliver the ball. Is not built to withstand a pounding and take punishment. Not an agile, make-you-miss runner — does not make full-speed cuts. Feels pocket ghosts and seeks to vacate prematurely — must continue refining pocket instincts. Too often late to see and feel pressure — takes unnecessary hits and durability could become an issue. Has 31 career fumbles and lost nearly half — can improve ball security on the move. 

 

As I said this is a project... Not a given

[MrJL]

I don't recall Griffin fumbling a lot and considering we're complaining about the number of hits he takes the whole vacating the pocket prematurely thing seems pretty BS.  In fact the complaint directly after seems to flat contradict it.

[Trasoul82]

See... this is why this board has so many "trolls." Any logical discussion is met with blind homerism and anyone who isn't willing to swim through paragraphs of baseless diatribes on hope and what it means to be a "real fan" is cast out.

 

The fact is, the injuRIES to RG3's knee last year were life changing, let alone career changing. We will NEVER see the same RG3 as last year. Healthy knees were a package deal with his confidence. So now he's a "project," huh? This is called DENIAL. He's damaged goods who will be blitzed out of each and every game until he proves that his foot speed commands respect again. 

 

RG3 didn't suddenly forget how to play QB. His case is much worse. His body isn't able to do what it was once able to do for years. If he was able to scramble like last year, the pocket pressure would be nullified and I'm sure his accuracy would be higher. Even if he returns to being "good," the Redskins will never get what they payed for out of him at this point.

[sharkproof]

I don't recall Griffin fumbling a lot and considering we're complaining about the number of hits he takes the whole vacating the pocket prematurely thing seems pretty BS.  In fact the complaint directly after seems to flat contradict it.

I'd disagree on this point. RG has many times had lanes to step/slide up into, but has taken to back peddling or running left or right losing sight of a portion or much of the view of the field when back peddling when moving forward, which may seem counter intuitive at the feeling or sense of pressure but is what is needed to be done.  

 

Besides playing in games right now which Shanny believes is what will help him learn, I don't know how exactly that in offseason then OTA's and camp one can realistically replicate live action of a game.  Practice won't include hitting or tackling.  I guess they an make it close, but how does a DL go full speed and then safely pull up and not hit the QB.  

 

Much to the disdain that I'm sure will be thrown my way, I'd play Cousins for a half or game or so and let RG watch from the sidelines and perhaps the booth.   Let him watch the game and the plays from a different perspective.  Most all of sports and learning how to play them is by watching another do it.  If you want to learn how to ski, follow a very good skier down hill and imitate when and how to turn.  Michael Jordan was quoted that the only player that could probably have beaten him was/is Kobe, because "he stole all of my moves"  which Kobe replied, "yeah I did, but a lot of guys have stolen some of my moves too.  

 

I know that since leaving football and learning how to play two man sand volleyball, that there have been times when the game was overwhelming me, and sitting and watching Karch Kiraly or any of the other pros that play here in So Cal that the game and how to play it slowed down and was easier.  

 

I'm not implying that Kirk is the better or answer or should be future of the franchise, no nothing of the sort, but rather just give RG a break and let him take in the game from a different perspective for a game or two.  

 

What I do know now, is that he looks to be on the verge of sustaining another major injury the way things are going.  Much of that is on his OL, but a fair share is his lack of playing the position and running/ reading/ the plays is on him.  The game on too many plays seems to be moving to fast for him.  He doesn't look relaxed all to often.

 

I sincerely believe that he can master all of this, but having never been formerly trained to do this and then having to learn it on the fly at the NFL level is not only a daunting task, but a very dangerous one.  One that that could end his career physically or mentally before it ever got a chance to start.  For all that the franchise gave to get RG, no one/fan wants this to work out more than I do.  My kid wears his RG jersey every Sunday cheering him on.

 

All imho.

[sharkproof]

See... this is why this board has so many "trolls." Any logical discussion is met with blind homerism and anyone who isn't willing to swim through paragraphs of baseless diatribes on hope and what it means to be a "real fan" is cast out.

 

The fact is, the injuRIES to RG3's knee last year were life changing, let alone career changing. We will NEVER see the same RG3 as last year. Healthy knees were a package deal with his confidence. So now he's a "project," huh? This is called DENIAL. He's damaged goods who will be blitzed out of each and every game until he proves that his foot speed commands respect again. 

 

RG3 didn't suddenly forget how to play QB. His case is much worse. His body isn't able to do what it was once able to do for years. If he was able to scramble like last year, the pocket pressure would be nullified and I'm sure his accuracy would be higher. Even if he returns to being "good," the Redskins will never get what they payed for out of him at this point.

Everyone believes what they want to believe.  Kap is struggling comparatively to last year as the Run option isn't as effective.  If D's blitz there is going to be someone open at the very least your release valve or just throw it away..  RG is a project as are all QB's entering the league.  99% that enter the league have to learn how to play the game at this level.  Steve Young struggled in Tampa, as did so many others that had to learn/be a project.  You seem to think that they can just come in and get it.  Well that list is very short. PM isn't on it.  Who is the troll here... the fans that just want to don blinders and make excuses.  RG is as mobile right now as 98% of the QB's in this league.  You just want him doing what he did last year and that offense isn't going to work as well as it did even had he not been injured.