How Kyle's Future and the Skins' Read-Option Future Are Linked

[pjfootballer]

pjfootballer: Three tenths of a second (4.7 to 4.4) is like me trying to outrun a cheetah, when talking in football terms.  They are not close at all. 

 

My math works out to .580 yards. That's 21 inches, over 40 yards. I call that close. Somebody check me. My math is very rusty.

Your math is fine, but looking at it from a football perspective, it's not.  3 thenths of a second in NASCAR is close.  3 tenths of a second when watching two comets hurdle towards earth is close.  Not 3 humans running.

[Lavarleap56]

pjfootballer: Three tenths of a second (4.7 to 4.4) is like me trying to outrun a cheetah, when talking in football terms.  They are not close at all. 

 

My math works out to .580 yards. That's 21 inches, over 40 yards. I call that close. Somebody check me. My math is very rusty.

Your math is fine, but looking at it from a football perspective, it's not.  3 thenths of a second in NASCAR is close.  3 tenths of a second when watching two comets hurdle towards earth is close.  Not 3 humans running.

 

 

And then there is the fact that Robert Griffin III lead the league in Yards Per Carry...  

[Oldfan]

LL.... Boot is a pass play with a run option, we're not talking about what QB can get more running yards off of a boot. We are talking about the difference in how backside defenders play/respect the boot action differently depending on the capabilities of the QB. Your not going to run a lot of boot action IF your QB is getting hit as soon as he turns his head around off the play fake.

 

If the backside rusher could hit the QB as soon as he turns his head around off the play fake, defenses would be doing that regardless of who is playing QB. That would crush both the run and the pass. When you claim that a non-running QB runs the boot better, it can only be that the defenses are less concerned with him picking up yards on the ground.

LL.... And then there is the fact that Robert Griffin III lead the league in Yards Per Carry... 

 

 That's a test of speed? I never knew that.

[Lavarleap56]

Lets take a look at Cousins in the boot action Just to further illustrate the point.

 

Pay attention the the run action & the shoulders/pursuit of the backside edge defender..

 

Rusher doesn't contain and is crashing on Morris.

 

 

 Another edge rusher blows odd contain and is crashing down on Morris

 

 

Skins notice the Browns don't respect Cousins out the backside, they are not staying home to contain/press the QB. Kyle dials up a swap boot to take advantage of the defense..

 

DE pays no mind to containing the QB and attacks down the LOS to Morris 

 

 

DE is still chasing down the RB... Cousins has nothing but open field and would end up hitting Hankerson for a TD.

 

[Oldfan]

NLC, 

 

I quickly scanned your Post 175. It seems you have given up trying to debate the topic on the table. You post was a mix of personal attack, irrelevant commentary, and your usual strawman arguments.

[KCClybun]

NLC, 

 

I quickly scanned your Post 175. It seems you have given up trying to debate the topic on the table. You post was a mix of personal attack, irrelevant commentary, and your usual strawman arguments.

 

Of course it was.

 

You didn't reply to this question I asked earlier:  When the stretch was run with Cutler, the defense had to use the back-side edge rusher to contain him. What could the defense do differently with Griffin that would make sense? Do you have something in mind?

 

The point was that when the stretch was run with Cutler, they typically didn't use a backside defender to contain Cutler. That's the whole point. Cutler is not as big a run threat as Robert.

 

The point of my post was to attack your position that Cutler and RGIII represent the same threat to the defense as far as their ability to run the bootleg effectively. Film study, as LL has posted, and statistical analysis, as I posted, does not bear that out.

[WakkaWakka]

What's up with all the bickering up in here today?

[Lavarleap56]

 

LL.... Boot is a pass play with a run option, we're not talking about what QB can get more running yards off of a boot. We are talking about the difference in how backside defenders play/respect the boot action differently depending on the capabilities of the QB. Your not going to run a lot of boot action IF your QB is getting hit as soon as he turns his head around off the play fake.

 

If the backside rusher could hit the QB as soon as he turns his head around off the play fake, defenses would be doing that regardless of who is playing QB. That would crush both the run and the pass. When you claim that a non-running QB runs the boot better, it can only be that the defenses are less concerned with him picking up yards on the ground.

LL.... And then there is the fact that Robert Griffin III lead the league in Yards Per Carry... 

 

 That's a test of speed? I never knew that.

 

1."If the backside rusher could hit the QB as soon as he turns his head around off the play fake, defenses would be doing that regardless of who is playing QB."

 

Defense can IF they choose to do so... That would leave them with a 10/10 to the front side stretch action which is an advantage for the offense in the run game, risk vs reward. Defensive coordinators want to take away one thing and make you beat them with something else. So when you have RG & Alf, the defense wants to force ALF to beat them frontside and not get beat by RG out the backside. A defense facing a guy like Cousins will focus on committing/stopping ALF frontside & living/forcing Cousins to beat them backside.. 

 

2."That would crush both the run and the pass"

 

No, run would be the workhorse & the defense would leave voids that were vulnerable to cutbacks 

 

3."When you claim that a non-running QB runs the boot better, it can only be that the defenses are less concerned with him picking up yards on the ground."

 

This is basically what I've been telling you. It's not that the "non-running" QB runs the boot better, its that different types of QB's running the play change the defenses perception/focus in defending it. 

 

The boot is more about hitting WR's in that 13-18 yard range against the flow of the defense. QB needs that free edge to get that 5 seconds of extra time to allow the WRs to come across the field for the play to work like the Shannies want. When the QB has a guy in his face right after the play fake then you have issues with your QB getting hit in an almost defenseless position while trying to throw to the flat route..

 

4. LL.... And then there is the fact that Robert Griffin III lead the league in Yards Per Carry... 

 

 "That's a test of speed? I never knew that."

 

Haha.. RGIII leading the league in YPC is a fact that defenders & coordinators will/do focus on when game planning for him as a  player. That shows the focus/ attention he receives as a " run threat " over the other QB's we have discussed in this thread.

[ZRagone]

In terms of all the stats being thrown around in here, I'm actually going to quote Matthew Berry:

 

 

The facts that support whatever opinion we have. We mislead you. And we do it on purpose. For example, I want to talk to you about an amazing running back who last season had his fifth straight season of double-digit touchdowns. Super durable, he hasn't missed a game in three straight seasons, and what you like is there are so many ways he can beat you. Last season, he had his career highs in receptions, targets and receiving touchdowns. This three-down threat has become more efficient as his career has gone on, as he is scoring once every 22 carries. This is the highest touchdown-per-carry rate of any running back with at least 200 carries last season. Ball security? Not an issue, as he lost the rock the fewest number of times since 2007 and his yardage total was almost twice what it was over the first two seasons he was in the league combined!

 

So yeah, make sure you draft Michael Turner early!

 

http://espn.go.com/fantasy/football/story/_/page/nfldk2k13_TMR_100_facts/matthew-berry-100-facts-need-know-drafting-your-fantasy-football-team'>(Link is here, read the full thing on statistics)

 

Long story short, there's just not enough information here to make any kind of definitive claim either way. Just even looking at the stats regarding the hits alone...

How damaging of a hit were those during the read option compared to those that weren't?

How much is a blindside hit worth in terms of risk as compared to one you see coming as you're going up along the sideline?

How many hits did RG3 suffer during the read option that could easily be eliminating with reasonable sliding/getting out of bounds? How many hits did RG3 suffer during drop back situations that could easily be elminating by not holding onto the ball as long?

How many more or less hits would RG3 have suffered during drop back passing if the Read Option wasn't something that was existing in our offense?

What were the totals looking like later in the season as the designed runs became less of our offense, but the read option was still heavily present? 

And it can go on and on.

Sorry, but all Oldfan is really doing is the equivilent of saying Draft Michael Turner

[Oldfan]

LL... Lets take a look at Cousins in the boot action Just to further illustrate the point.

 

I like the stretch-boot, always have. But, that's beside the point. The issue here is your claim that Cousins can run the 2011 offense better than Robert because Robert is the greater run threat and defenses will contain him more than they would Cousins.

 

Let's get it down to basic football. The defense has 11 men. There's no way to get anything free. If they overplay Robert on the boot, they underplay Morris on the stretch.

[Lavarleap56]

LL... Lets take a look at Cousins in the boot action Just to further illustrate the point.

 

I like the stretch-boot, always have. But, that's beside the point. The issue here is your claim that Cousins can run the 2011 offense better than Robert because Robert is the greater run threat and defenses will contain him more than they would Cousins.

 

Let's get it down to basic football. The defense has 11 men. There's no way to get anything free. If they overplay Robert on the boot, they underplay Morris on the stretch.

 

1. "The issue here is your claim that Cousins can run the 2011 offense better than Robert because Robert is the greater run threat and defenses will contain him more than they would Cousins."

 

I never claimed that Cousins can run the 2011 Offense.. You started off talking about Mike's scheme using Cutler's mobility to protect him in 2008. The boot is a base fundamental play in that 2008 traditional offense. We have been discussing how different QB's change the dynamics of the play & how a defense defends it.  You basically were questioning  Shanny use of RO vs Traditional, but Shanny is accomplishing the same thing thing just in a way that protects him more as a passer in the RO.

 

2. "Let's get it down to basic football. The defense has 11 men. There's no way to get anything free. If they overplay Robert on the boot, they underplay Morris on the stretch."

 

Yes, I told you this a few posts ago...

 

[Oldfan]

LL...  Defensive coordinators want to take away one thing and make you beat them with something else. So when you have RG & Alf, the defense wants to force ALF to beat them frontside and not get beat by RG out the backside.

 

You have RG3 coming off two knee surgeries. Even at 100% he was fast but not elusive, and you still think that defenses would prefer that Morris run the ball? No, man. RG3  is a great passer. He's not a great runner. Morris is the one who will kill defenses with the ground game.

[RG3Hunna]

LL...  Defensive coordinators want to take away one thing and make you beat them with something else. So when you have RG & Alf, the defense wants to force ALF to beat them frontside and not get beat by RG out the backside.

 

You have RG3 coming off two knee surgeries. Even at 100% he was fast but not elusive, and you still think that defenses would prefer that Morris run the ball? No, man. RG3  is a great passer. He's not a great runner. Morris is the one who will kill defenses with the ground game.

I couldn't disagree more, RG3 is still the #1 running threat even after coming off two knee surgeries! Anytime RG3 comes off a bootleg  he's the focus and that's a FACT. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wCudwZta2I 

 

Even Ngata stated they focused on stopping RG3, they allowed Alfred to scamper for yards. 

[Jumbo]

What's up with all the bickering up in here today?

 

 

Funny, I just wrote this, but had added it to the "sitting" pile: 

 

 

NLC and OF remind me of listening to my aunt's old albums of The Bickersons (from the old radio show) when I was a kid. They instill other thoughts, appreciative and critical, and have once again inspired more writing of the kind I dislike for me, but at this point, I'm sitting on it and hoping for the best. 

 

As often as possible, particularly in circumstance involving knowledgeable posters and comparatively minor offenses, the less intervention the better I like it. But accountability, ES rules and guidelines, and fairness, always matter. 

 

 

 

 

I'll add:

 

In this conversation, hopefully, we can refocus on the football stuff and less on "posting styles" and personal characterizations. Another option is for an individual to just decide they've addressed the topic enough and it's time to move on.

 

As often the case in these threads in particular (and almost any thread in general), various tangents are introduced (door opened) by the OP and others, naturally enough as the thread goes on, and then there arises not only expected debate about them too, but whether they should be even be argued about or not. This dynamic receives a little "extra" activity in these threads.  

 

​In terms of wearing my moderating hat, for instance, LL's comments on Cutler are not "shifting the topic", nor do any of the other major responses try to "shift" anything. 

 

I also applaud those who I know apply effort to remain above the fray even when frustrated, when it is in service to trying to extend a discussion between people who really can "talk football" somewhat above the norm (if you will).

 

When average or dumb discussions bog down in flaming or name-calling after awhile, it's no great loss, even if it gets to where a mod bans someone (almost always unfortunate to us) or closes a thread accordingly.

 

When the more "personality" or "style" clashes arise among the players in quality discussions, it's a much more "unfortunate" sensation on my end. I see it as "everyone loses" in a way, from a board management perspective, even before some mod action is taken.

 

We're not there on this one, I'm just "sharing." I really care about good quality threads and posters, but we have always applied our rules and guidelines to everyone, as some of the folks in the thread know firsthand (and have disliked my decisions <and me > more than once in the process).   

 

 

OK, I'm gone for the day. Let this be open and no fatalities when I return, please.

 

<i sure miss my old smilies. what does that say about me at this point in lifespan development?>

[Oldfan]

The issue here is your claim that Cousins can run the 2011 offense better than Robert because Robert is the greater run threat and defenses will contain him more than they would Cousins.

 

LL ... I never claimed that Cousins can run the 2011 Offense.. 

 

Okay, that's a non-denial denial. Let's pin down exactly where you stand on this point. Are you now saying that Cousins CANNOT run the 2011 offense better than Robert?

[KCClybun]

Robert IS running the 2011 offense. 

 

We did not bootleg Rex Grossman that much. And when we did...

 

 

Look at where the backside defense end is in comparison with Rex. Rex actually had time to sit and wait for Fred to come open off the bootleg on this play, because the backside defensive end didn't initially crash him. It was only after Rex stood there for a few seconds that the defender actually attacked him, and by then the ball was out.

 

 

Same thing with Matt Schaub on the same play only the direction is flipped...

 

 

Look how much green grass Schaub has on this play. No one respects him as a runner. They all drop into coverage and Schaub has time to sit back and wait for Owen Daniels to come open on the route.

 

 

Now here's the same exact play with Donovan.

 

 

Notice that as soon as it becomes apparent Donovan is on a keeper, the defense immediately crashes on him and tries to get after him. There's no dropping back in coverage and playing your assignment. Two guys immediately get after Donovan.

 

 

Now here's THE SAME PLAY with Robert.

 

 

OLB is right in his face as he releases the ball.

 

 

Now here's a variation of the bootleg with Aaron Rodgers.

 

 

No defensive end pressure, no linebackers crashing to stop him.

 

 

Here's Cutler running the bootleg with the Broncos. 

 

 

No DE pressure.

 

 

 

Here's Cutler booting the other way, STILL no DE pressure.

 

 

 

 

Want more? Okay.

 

 

 

 

How about more?

 

 

 

 

Here's some more Rodgers...

 

http://youtu.be/j2lo-MGqgoo?t=1m45s

 

 

 

Are you picking up what I'm putting down yet?

[Lavarleap56]

LL...  Defensive coordinators want to take away one thing and make you beat them with something else. So when you have RG & Alf, the defense wants to force ALF to beat them frontside and not get beat by RG out the backside.

 

You have RG3 coming off two knee surgeries. Even at 100% he was fast but not elusive, and you still think that defenses would prefer that Morris run the ball? No, man. RG3  is a great passer. He's not a great runner. Morris is the one who will kill defenses with the ground game.

 

1."You have RG3 coming off two knee surgeries. Even at 100% he was fast but not elusive, and you still think that defenses would prefer that Morris run the ball?"

 

Elusive doesn't really have anything to do with it.. What matters is his speed on the edge of the defense makes the offense more explosive. We can have whatever opinion we want about how good of a runner is RG3, The only thing that matters is what defenders/coordinators think. The fact is that 11 guys eyes were focused on the QB over the 2012 season and the Redskins were an explosive offense as a result. 

 

Yes. As good as Robert was in 2012 the perception is still out there that he isn't  that good from the pocket. defenders will rather have Morris run the ball and force RG3 to prove he can beat them from the pocket vs assuming he can't beat them on the edge anymore because of a knee injury. He was injured in week 17 vs Dallas and still put up 63 yards on a 10.3 average and a TD. 

[Oldfan]

NLC...  Robert IS running the 2011 offense.

 

 

You imply that I said he had not. That's another strawman.

 

Your display of photographs are all show and no substance.  They don't even show the kind of plays that we were discussing. 

 

Are you picking up what I'm putting down yet?

 

 Oh, definitely. I've had you figured from Day One.

[KCClybun]

So we're not talking about swap/bootleg plays then?

 

There go those goal post again.

[Oldfan]

LL... Elusive doesn't really have anything to do with it..

 

Elusiveness isn't going to help a QB get around the edge? 

 

Yes. As good as Robert was in 2012 the perception is still out there that he isn't  that good from the pocket...

 

I think that if he stays healthy, Robert has the talent to be the best passer in Skins history. That's why I agree with Jurgy's advice to him -- "Quit running."

[KCClybun]

LL... Elusive doesn't really have anything to do with it..

 

Elusiveness isn't going to help a QB get around the edge? 

 

Yes. As good as Robert was in 2012 the perception is still out there that he isn't  that good from the pocket...

 

I think that if he stays healthy, Robert has the talent to be the best passer in Skins history. That's why I agree with Jurgy's advice to him -- "Quit running."

 

Well you're both 130 years old so that makes sense.

[Lavarleap56]

LL... Elusive doesn't really have anything to do with it..

 

Elusiveness isn't going to help a QB get around the edge? 

 

Yes. As good as Robert was in 2012 the perception is still out there that he isn't  that good from the pocket...

 

I think that if he stays healthy, Robert has the talent to be the best passer in Skins history. That's why I agree with Jurgy's advice to him -- "Quit running."

 

First thing that pops in my head when I think Elusive is Barry Sanders.. Elusive,fast, quick or whatever, We can call it whatever we want, but I don;t think that is a factor in the discussion. Would it help, sure, being elusive is a good trait for any offensive skill position. Robert doesn't have a problem getting to the edge of a defense tho. They have to account for that every play as we've discussed.

 

Think he has the talent to be one of the best passers in NFL history, but it makes your offense more explosive & dynamic when a defense has to account for the QB as a run threat. That doesn't mean I want him running a lot but we will see him run in smarter situations this season. The TE & RB play will be a big factor in the spread read option packages this year.

[Oldfan]

LL... Think he has the talent to be one of the best passers in NFL history, but it makes your offense more explosive & dynamic when a defense has to account for the QB as a run threat.

 

We don't disagree on this as far as you've taken it. When the QB can't run, the defense is playing 11 on 10. The QB as a running threat, makes it 11 on 11 regardless of where he is on the field.  He doesn't need to run designed runs to be considered a running threat.

 

Now, I see the advantages of the read-option, I understand why it's tough to stop, but I don't give a damn. I think you people who want to expose Robert to more injury on designed runs are certifiably insane. And, I've read and scoffed at your side's theory that its safer, it's God's gift to protecting the QB, and so on.

[KCClybun]

 

LL... Think he has the talent to be one of the best passers in NFL history, but it makes your offense more explosive & dynamic when a defense has to account for the QB as a run threat.

 

We don't disagree on this as far as you've taken it. When the QB can't run, the defense is playing 11 on 10. The QB as a running threat, makes it 11 on 11 regardless of where he is on the field.  He doesn't need to run designed runs to be considered a running threat.

 

Now, I see the advantages of the read-option, I understand why it's tough to stop, but I don't give a damn. I think you people who want to expose Robert to more injury on designed runs are certifiably insane. And, I've read and scoffed at your side's theory that its safer, it's God's gift to protecting the QB, and so on.

 

That's because every offensive concept you believe in was born in the 1960s and never changed...

[skinny21]

That's because every offensive concept you believe in was born in the 1960s and never changed...

Dude, I've learned a lot from your posts and don't wanna see you on hiatus. I hope the mods know I respect and love 'em, but I expect (especially after the warnings) that most posters would have been taking time off by now. I know OF can be frustrating, but the post not the poster my man.

OF - I get your point that the less we run Robert, the fewer hits he takes. With the talent he has, it's even more important to minimize those hits. If Griffin hands off to Morris and never keeps it (particularly to run with it), then we automatically reduce the number of hits. That all makes sense.

On the flip side, there are some pretty compelling arguments to keeping the R/O (I can almost hear you disagreeing, lol).

What it boils down to, for me is this. Scrap the option, triple option and draws (for the most part at least) and see if Griffin learns not to take shots in the R/O keepers. If all of this happens, I'd guess we see a large reduction in those hits, which could make the benefits of him keeping the ball much greater than the risk. However, if he doesn't dramatically improve his self preservation, then the R/O should be scrapped (or at least minimized like the draw plays). If Griffin continues to take hits in the R/O and Kyle doesn't change his play-calling, then it is arguably on his (Kyle's) head if Griff gets injured. I'm taking a wait and see approach.

Last point, I love the idea of the R/O as the new bootleg/naked bootleg. Makes perfect sense that you want your qb keying off what that end does as opposed to turning your back on him. Very, very smart evolution on Kyle's part. Couple that with so many different plays run out of the pistol and the affect on the D, and it's very easy to see why many are so high on Kyle right now.