***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[Bozo the kKklown]

29 minutes ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

LeBron's ability to finish at the rim makes him a better scorer. 

This makes no sense.

 

You acknowledged Durant's the better shooter. 3>2

 

Lebron has never averaged 30 in an NBA season. Durant has done it twice.

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

LeBron averaged 30 in twice his career. 31 in his 3rd year and 30 in 07-08

Your math is incomplete. LeBron finishes so efficiently at the rim that it offsets Durant's better shooting and free throw percentage. Plus LeBron has improved his 3 point shooting, but he is a lot more selective in it than KD so I won't say he is a better 3 point shooter than KD. 

 

LeBron is averaging .8 more shots than KD right now but is at 28.3 points per game compared to KD's 25.6. Yeah, LeBron is a better scorer. 

[Destino]

Durant is the better scorer, Lebron is the better offensive player.  Lebron's ability to create and run the offense is worth more than the handful of points Durant might have over him. 

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

That’s the point Durant doesn’t have any extra points over him.

 

Durant also pads his fg% which is annoying. LeBron probably does it too. Curry doesn’t tho. He tries to make those full court shots before the buzzer. KD always waits for the buzzer to go off before trying it. Come on KD it’s not going to affect your fg% significantly. 

[Destino]

Just did a player comparison on basketball reference, their career scoring numbers are very close.  In fact they both average the same points per game, 27.2.  Worth taking a look.  Playoff scoring numbers are close too.  

 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=LeBron+James&player_id1_select=LeBron+James&player_id1=jamesle01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Durant&player_id2_select=Kevin+Durant&player_id2=duranke01&idx=players

[Kosher Ham]

LeBron is still better than KD. And LeBron has a lot more miles on him. 

And I think KD is a current top 5 player. 

[Going Commando]

Oh Good Lord.  This is where relying on numbers to make the argument leads completely awry.  Of course Durant is a better scorer than LeBron.  LeBron has run point his whole career and gets to call his own number all of the time while Durant played with Westbrook at point and now plays in a real offensive system that depresses his volume but does so in pursuit of playing dominant team basketball.  If Durant's role was the carry the ball up the court every trip and trigger a one pass offense like LeBron's he'd crush him in volume.

 

Durant led the league in points almost every year before he hurt his foot, and did so while shooting like Larry Bird.  He's the greatest scorer of his era.  The only type of scoring that LeBron does better is post ups.  Everything else Durant is equal or better: pick and roll, pick and fade, catch and shoot, dribble pull up, triple threat, literally everything from mid range, slashing, free throw shooting, fast break finishing at the rim and three point line.  Durant is elite at every aspect of scoring except back to basket.  He's a once in a generation scorer.

[TradeTheBeal!]

As usual, Steve is right.

[Bozo the kKklown]

8 hours ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

LeBron averaged 30 in twice his career. 31 in his 3rd year and 30 in 07-08

Your math is incomplete. LeBron finishes so efficiently at the rim that it offsets Durant's better shooting and free throw percentage. Plus LeBron has improved his 3 point shooting, but he is a lot more selective in it than KD so I won't say he is a better 3 point shooter than KD. 

 

LeBron is averaging .8 more shots than KD right now but is at 28.3 points per game compared to KD's 25.6. Yeah, LeBron is a better scorer. 

apologies for getting the LeBron number wrong. I forgot he averaged it twice early in his career.

 

But no, Durant is a better scorer. You rarely see LeBron be a threat off the ball unless its for a back door lob. KD is one of he best catch and shoot guys in the league and in Golden State he doesnt need the ball to do his work. Durant has actually become a better scorer in Golden State because he doesnt command the ball as much and can still get busy.

 

And yes, Durant is a better 3 point shooter than LeBron. That is absurd. 

 

Numbers are great, but you have to actually watch the game. Durant scores in a variety of ways and it does not require as much effort as LeBron.

 

And Durant is a better defender than LeBron, and has been for a while.

8 hours ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

That’s the point Durant doesn’t have any extra points over him.

 

Durant also pads his fg% which is annoying. LeBron probably does it too. Curry doesn’t tho. He tries to make those full court shots before the buzzer. KD always waits for the buzzer to go off before trying it. Come on KD it’s not going to affect your fg% significantly. 

idk what pad his field goal percentage means, lol.

 

They take the best shots possible. Thats what great players do. Curry takes those half court shots because he can make them. Its not like John Wall is doing that.

 

Also Durant's stats are slightly lower than LeBron's this season, but LeBron doubles Durant in time of possession. LeBron has the ball 7:12 minutes per game while Durant has the ball 3:30 minutes per game.

 

LeBron is also playing about three more minutes a game than Durant.

 

Durant is better than LeBron. We saw it in the finals last year and we are seeing it this year, even though Durant is not statistically as dominant.

Edited December 12, 2017 by BenningRoadSkin

[PeterMP]

22 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

apologies for getting the LeBron number wrong. I forgot he averaged it twice early in his career.

 

But no, Durant is a better scorer. You rarely see LeBron be a threat off the ball unless its for a back door lob. KD is one of he best catch and shoot guys in the league and in Golden State he doesnt need the ball to do his work. Durant has actually become a better scorer in Golden State because he doesnt command the ball as much and can still get busy.

 

Lebron is actually a better catch shoot 3 point shooter (47% vs. 41.2%).  

 

https://stats.nba.com/players/catch-shoot/

 

But I guess the numbers are wrong.

 

(I'd guess what Lebron is actually is a smarter catch and shoot 3 point shooter and is taking only the less contested shots and making other plays with the ball on the more contested shots.  In other words, Lebron takes good shots while Durant takes less good shots.  But where I'm from, we call that being smart and that's a good thing.)

Edited December 12, 2017 by PeterMP

[PeterMP]

Lebron is not only the best player in the NBA.  Reading this thread, he might be the most under rated player in the NBA.

 

Durant isn't even the best defender on his team.

 

If you want to attack "GM" for not putting a better team around him, I guess that might reasonable, but that has nothing to do with his on court ability.

Edited December 12, 2017 by PeterMP

[Bozo the kKklown]

16 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Lebron is actually a better catch shoot 3 point shooter (47% vs. 41.2%).  

 

https://stats.nba.com/players/catch-shoot/

 

But I guess the numbers are wrong.

 

(I'd guess what Lebron is actually is a smarter catch and shoot 3 point shooter and is taking only the less contested shots and making other plays with the ball on the more contested shots.  In other words, Lebron takes good shots while Durant takes less good shots.  But where I'm from, we call that being smart and that's a good thing.)

Durant takes 6 a game, Lebron takes 3.

 

Lebron is shooting 45% in those situations.

 

Durant is shooting 47%

 

Unless you are seeing something I am not seeing in the link you sent.

3 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Durant isn't even the best defender on his team.

He has been better than Draymond this year.

 

Also thats an absurd criteria. Its like saying Durant isn't a better defender than Tyson Chandler on the Suns because Chandler is their best defender.

[PeterMP]

2 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Durant takes 6 a game, Lebron takes 3.

 

Lebron is shooting 45% in those situations.

 

Durant is shooting 47%

 

Unless you are seeing something I am not seeing in the link you sent.

 

3 point shooter.  Keep going over.

 

(I think the key for catch and shoot is really the 3pt%.  I don't know many offenses that are designed today to get people catch and shoot 2 point shots.)

 

But even if you look at the total, declaring Durant better based on 2% points is ridiculous, especially considering Lebron has the higher EFG%.

[PeterMP]

18 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

He has been better than Draymond this year.

 

Also thats an absurd criteria. Its like saying Durant isn't a better defender than Tyson Chandler on the Suns because Chandler is their best defender.

 

Doubtful.

 

But I was talking about Klay anyway.

 

The point is it is hard to determine the value of an individual on defense in the context of a team, especially when the player is playing with other exceptional defenders.  Durant looks really good on defense partly because if he does make a mistake it gets covered by the other really high quality defenders on the GSW.

 

And people that were clearly exceptional defenders before Durant got there.

Edited December 12, 2017 by PeterMP

[Bozo the kKklown]

8 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

3 point shooter.  Keep going over.

 

(I think the key for catch and shoot is really the 3pt%.  I don't know many offenses that are designed today to get people catch and shoot 2 point shots.)

 

But even if you look at the total, declaring Durant better based on 2% points is ridiculous, especially considering Lebron has the higher EFG%.

Ok, so Lebron takes 1.5 a game while Durant takes 4 a game.

 

And yes Durant is better, he scors about 7 a game off those in comparison to 3 a game Lebron scores. That means that Durant is comfortable with those opportunities more than Lebron is.

 

Unless you want to insinuate that Lebron is a better at 3 point catch and shoot than Steph Curry. If you want to die on that hill, then by all means die.

 

4 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Doubtful.

 

The point is it is hard to determine the value of an individual on defense in the context of a team, especially when the player is playing with other exceptional defenders.  Durant looks really good on defense partly because if he does make a mistake it gets covered by the other really high quality defenders on the GSW.

 

And people that were clearly exceptional defenders before Durant got there.

Bro, he been better this year.

 

Draymond is a great rim protector, yet Durant has a better defensive rim percentage than Draymond on more opportunities.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defensive-impact/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&TeamID=1610612744&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT&dir=1

 

He is averaging more blocks and slightly more defensive rebounds.

 

Durant was the best defensive player in the finals too.

[Going Commando]

Durant is their rim protector.  He's actually the one covering other peoples mistakes the majority of the time.  He's transformed from a typical wing defender into this shotblocking terror over the last two years.

[Bozo the kKklown]

11 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Durant is their rim protector.  He's actually the one covering other peoples mistakes the majority of the time.  He's transformed from a typical wing defender into this shotblocking terror over the last two years.

The 2016 playoffs is when we saw it first.

 

He was dominant against the Spurs and Warriors. He basically ran out of gas in the 2016 WCF, but doesn't have that issue anymore since Curry and Thompson can load up on offense for him.

 

I really urge some of us on here to get League Pass or go on the reddit stream forums to see these games. Durant is a genuine first team All NBA defender now and could be for the next few years because he will always be 7 feet tall.

[PeterMP]

16 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Ok, so Lebron takes 1.5 a game while Durant takes 4 a game.

 

And yes Durant is better, he scors about 7 a game off those in comparison to 3 a game Lebron scores. That means that Durant is comfortable with those opportunities more than Lebron is.

 

Unless you want to insinuate that Lebron is a better at 3 point catch and shoot than Steph Curry. If you want to die on that hill, then by all means die.

 

Bro, he been better this year.

 

Draymond is a great rim protector, yet Durant has a better defensive rim percentage than Draymond on more opportunities.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defensive-impact/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&TeamID=1610612744&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT&dir=1

 

He is averaging more blocks and slightly more defensive rebounds.

 

Durant was the best defensive player in the finals too.

 

Carmelo has more catch and shoot points than any of then Durant, Lebron, and Curry.  I'm guessing total points is not a hill you want to die on.

 

I'm not really arguing that Lebron is better.  Like I said, I suspect he's smarter about them.  Curry, though would be a different issue because Curry doesn't have all of the same possibilities as Durant and Lebron in terms of getting to the rim.  I'd expect Curry to shot a lower percentage simply because there are times where that's his best shot vs. for Durant and Lebron there are going to be times when based on the close out, they are better off attacking the rim.

 

There's more to defense than defending the rim and not all defensive errors result in people getting to the rim.

Edited December 12, 2017 by PeterMP

[Bozo the kKklown]

1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

 

Carmelo has more catch and shoot points than any of then Durant, Lebron, and Curry.  I'm guessing total points is not a hill you want to die on.

yes, and he sucks now. lol

 

He is shooting below 40% from three and barely over 40% on all field goals.

 

2 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

I'm not really arguing that Lebron is better.  Like I said, I suspect he's smarter about them.  Curry, though would be a different issue because Curry doesn't have all of the same possibilities as Durant and Lebron in terms of getting to the rim.  I'd expect Curry to shot a lower percentage simply because there are times where that's his best shot vs. for Durant and Lebron there are going to be times when based on the close out, they are better off attacking the rim.

So which is it? Is Lebron better at it than those two or are they better?

 

4 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

There's more to defense than defending the rim.

Let me know. Because I thought preventing people from scoring mattered above all else.

 

Durant also has Draymond on defended field goals as well

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&TeamID=1610612744&sort=D_FG_PCT&dir=-1

 

Help me out.

 

I know Draymond is a smarter defender than Durant because he is probably has the highest IQ on defense than anyone in the league, but Durant has been better contesting shots, rim protection, etc. Help me out.

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I really urge some of us on here to get League Pass or go on the reddit stream forums to see these games. Durant is a genuine first team All NBA defender now and could be for the next few years because he will always be 7 feet tall.

 

His transformation into a more typical 7 footer on defense has been one of the untold but very impactful developments in the league.  The Warriors moved on from Bogut without missing a beat because Durant took on his defensive role.  That's pretty incredible, and it's a testament to how Durant adapts himself to do what's needed for the team.  I don't think he gets enough credit for that.  Stars like Durant get dinged for not being alpha personalities, but sometimes it's a good thing.  Sometimes it means they're more adaptable and play better team basketball.  I don't think there are many superstars out there who could have shown up in Golden State and fit as seamlessly and been as unselfish as Durant.

 

I think the biggest reason why people haven't noticed that Durant became a great defensive player is because the Warriors play very late for an East Coast audience, and they're not that interesting to write about for the Zach Lowes of the world.  You really have to see it to believe it.  I think he might have always been a talented shot blocker but OKC didn't use that talent of his because I don't think you can just learn to block shots.  Golden State has let him off the chain and now he's blocking shots like Embiid.  It makes that team Hell to play in Oracle.

[PeterMP]

20 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

yes, and he sucks now. lol

 

He is shooting below 40% from three and barely over 40% on all field goals.

 

So which is it? Is Lebron better at it than those two or are they better?

 

Let me know. Because I thought preventing people from scoring mattered above all else.

 

Durant also has Draymond on defended field goals as well

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&TeamID=1610612744&sort=D_FG_PCT&dir=-1

 

Help me out.

 

I know Draymond is a smarter defender than Durant because he is probably has the highest IQ on defense than anyone in the league, but Durant has been better contesting shots, rim protection, etc. Help me out.

 

The difference between Lebron and Durant on catch and 3 shooting is so small that it is irrelevant.  Lebron is a plenty good catch and shooter to call Durant better than him is ridiculous.

 

You're really arguing the smarter defender is not as good.  Steals aren't apart of playing defense?  Making the proper switch on the pick and roll?  Knowing when to stay home vs. when to go for the block?

 

I was always taught a good defender doesn't give up the shot to start with.  Close out the space before the defender thinks about getting the shot off.  The key to playing good defense is to stop the ball.  Not give up a shot.

 

Green is 2nd in the league in steals, and he's the only "big" in the top 10 (well Giannis is 9, but I'm not sure if he qualifies as a big).

Edited December 12, 2017 by PeterMP

[PeterMP]

I'm not arguing that Durant isn't a great player, and even a great defender.  Depending on what position you want to put him and others in (not a big fan of worrying about positions), I have no problem with saying he's an all NBA defender.

 

But to simply say he's a better defender than somebody like Green just doesn't even make sense.  Maybe he's passed Green by, but it isn't certainly clear that's the case.  Especially because Green does so much more than defend the rim or contest shots.

[Bozo the kKklown]

6 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

The difference between Lebron and Durant on catch and 3 shooting is so small that it is irrelevant.

Its not. You keep saying as it is, but this is the point where you cannot depend on stats solely for your analysis. Stats are supposed to support what you are seeing.

 

Its why I brought up Curry and you had to start walking back. Durant is a better catch and shoot scorer shooter than LeBron. We know this because he scores and hits his shots at a relatively high clip. Lebron is just not comfortable there. We know this because he doesn't take that many shots. Thats why you cannot say its small and miniscule. It's not. Its like saying Mark Price is a better 3 point shooter than Steph Curry because Price had a higher 3 point shooting percentage in 1992 even though he took like 3 or 4 a game in comparison to Curry taking 9 or 10. Its not small at all. 

 

It also shows you have to watch these games vs judging off boxscores and basketball reference alone.

 

9 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Your really arguing the smarter defender is not as good.  Steals aren't apart of playing defense?  Making the proper switch on the pick and roll?  Knowing when to stay home vs. when to go for the block?

That is not what I argued. I said Draymond has the highest defensive IQ in the NBA. But I also said this season Durant has been a better defender than Draymond.

 

I can only go based on my eyes, but Durant has always been a good pick and roll defender. He is 7 feet tall but moves like a wing player.  Do you have examples and metrics of Durant being a worse pick and roll defender than Draymond? Id love to see it

 

And the other stuff you typed about knowing when to block, etc is you just typing to type.  I pointed out that Durant holds his opponents to a lower field goal percentage than Draymond does this season so what you typed is nothing.

12 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

I was always taught a good defender doesn't give up the shot to start with.  Close out the space before the defender thinks about getting the shot off.

Good for you. I am sure these players were taught that too. (Draymond is facing 13.2 Fgs a game versus Durant's 13.1, so please stop it)

 

13 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Green is 2nd in the league in steals, and he's the only "big" in the top 10 (well Giannis is 9, but I'm not sure if he qualifies as a big).

 

No he isn't.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/steals/sort/avgSteals/qualified/false

 

And Russell Westbrook is 4th and he doesn't play a lick of defense. AI used to be a league leader in steals and he was a poor defender too.

 

 

Now Draymond is special because he does stay in front of his man and doesn't gamble but no he isn't 2nd in steals.

[CrypticVillain]

The reason I'm going with KD as the best right now is due to his performance in the Finals last year. I know that he has that capability in him. He was strapping Lebron and Kyrie one-on-one on multiple occasions. Blocking, contesting, harassing, all of that. On the offensive end, he was hilariously efficient. Yes, Lebron did put up those monster stats, but he put a lot of effort into it. KD made things that should be difficult, look effortless.

 

I don't care who he has around him now, he was doing similar things in OKC.

Edited December 12, 2017 by CrypticVillain

[Bozo the kKklown]

10 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

I'm not arguing that Durant isn't a great player, and even a great defender.  Depending on what position you want to put him and others in (not a big fan of worrying about positions), I have no problem with saying he's an all NBA defender.

 

But to simply say he's a better defender than somebody like Green just doesn't even make sense.  Maybe he's passed Green by, but it isn't certainly clear that's the case.  Especially because Green does so much more than defend the rim or contest shots.

He has been a better defender than Draymond this season. You can windmill all you want but I watch their games and I just showed you the stats to back it up.