ES: Chalk Talk: The Difference Up Front for the 4-3 and 3-4

[KCClybun]

So do people think Terrance Knighton would be an upgrade over Barry Cofield, if we pursued him in the offseason? He seemed to be doing pretty well until recently, when they suddenly decided to move him out of the starting lineup. Seeing as he suddenly got knocked out of the starter spot, his price tag probably wouldn't be prohibitive. He had two sacks through seven games, which isn't all-pro level but it makes him an option.

As I recall he's been pretty well inconsistent since getting drafted. Seems like he has an inconsistent motor that stops him from reaching that next level.

[SkinsFTW]

People should just forget about any idea of Shanahan switching back to the 4-3 while he's here. To do so would be admitting that he has no clue wtf he's doing. He won't even fire Danny Smith, who would believe that he'd switch defensive schemes after spending 3 years trying to build a 3-4 defense?

[chaos]

People should just forget about any idea of Shanahan switching back to the 4-3 while he's here.

I agree. First, Shanahan spent his year out of coaching researching defenses. He came up with the 3-4 as his choice. He's not going to doubt himself after just 3 years.

Secondly, the guy was just quoted as saying the failures on defense were due to injuries, which is partially true.

Finally, as other people have pointed out, Shanahan has spent 3 years building the defense.

The 3-4 will remain whether Haslett is gone or not in 2013.

It's been reported many times that one of Shanahan's conditions for taking the Skins' coaching gig was that everyone in the organization had to understand that it'd take the full five year contract to find success.

I think part of everyone's anger and disappointment is that most thought we'd have no chance this year. RG3 has obviously changed that and it's frustrating. Be patient.

[KDawg]

So do people think Terrance Knighton would be an upgrade over Barry Cofield, if we pursued him in the offseason? He seemed to be doing pretty well until recently, when they suddenly decided to move him out of the starting lineup. Seeing as he suddenly got knocked out of the starter spot, his price tag probably wouldn't be prohibitive. He had two sacks through seven games, which isn't all-pro level but it makes him an option.

As I recall he's been pretty well inconsistent since getting drafted. Seems like he has an inconsistent motor that stops him from reaching that next level.

I don't see many free agents who are better than Knighton, but that certainly doesn't mean we sign him. His issue has been how much extra weight he puts on in the offseason. Dude is a run stuffer. At 6-3 335 he's got good size, although I'd LOVE a 350+ nose tackle, but good ones don't exactly grow on trees.

Here are some guys in the draft that we could target that might be worth keeping an eye on:

Larry Black, Indiana - He's too small right now at only 309, but he could add some bulk to his frame. He's playing quite well for the Hoosiers right now.

Jesse Williams, Alabama - A Nick Saban defensive player, so he's got to have some upside. Problem is, he seems to be hurt consistently this year. Not a good thing for a team looking to draft a nose tackle. We'll see how the rest of the year goes.

Kwame Geathers, Georgia - Big guy. No, he's a HUGE guy. 6-6... 350. Part of the Bulldogs rotation. Solid football player. Someone to keep an eye on.

Daniel McCullers, Tennessee - Another man-mountain. 6-8, 360! Raw player but played quite well against the Gators OL, even forcing some pressures.

[Chump Bailey]

Is TJ Barnes DT Georgia Tech on your radar KD?^^^

[KDawg]

Is TJ Barnes DT Georgia Tech on your radar KD?^^^

Yeah, I like him. I've seen even less of him than I have the other guys, though, so I don't have a great opinion yet.

[DogofWar1]

Yeah, I'm not necessarily high on Knighton, but I don't really see a better NT prospect out there in the market right now. Nice list for the draft KDawg, I'll keep an eye on those guys.

[darrelgreenie]

So do people think Terrance Knighton would be an upgrade over Barry Cofield, if we pursued him in the offseason? He seemed to be doing pretty well until recently, when they suddenly decided to move him out of the starting lineup. Seeing as he suddenly got knocked out of the starter spot, his price tag probably wouldn't be prohibitive. He had two sacks through seven games, which isn't all-pro level but it makes him an option.

I think moving Jenkins to NT and Cofield to DE would be an improve the DE upfield rush without a drop off from the NT spot. I have not watched Terrance Knighton play.

[cphil006]

-stephen bowen 6-5 310

-barry cofield 6-4 318

-brian orakpo 6-4 260

-ryan kerrigan 6-4 267

so what you just proved is we have the prototype personnel to run the 4-3.. not sure where you're going with this

I guess we could. I wonder how the adjustment would be. Kerrigan and Orakpo would rush pretty much every down, but they would have trouble defending the run in a 4-3 alignment against bigger tackles. Right now they've got the 3-4 DEs to help/

[DogofWar1]

I think moving Jenkins to NT and Cofield to DE would be an improve the DE upfield rush without a drop off from the NT spot. I have not watched Terrance Knighton play.

Quite possibly. Neither is really perfect for NT spot atm, both are south of 320, but Cofield got 3 sacks last year as NT, so he can rush. Jenkins hasn't shown that, but he's been decent in run defense. Have him eat up some blocks and let Cofield go for the QB. Maybe it'll work, maybe not, but the current situation isn't doing much.

---------- Post added November-1st-2012 at 01:16 PM ----------

I guess we could. I wonder how the adjustment would be. Kerrigan and Orakpo would rush pretty much every down, but they would have trouble defending the run in a 4-3 alignment against bigger tackles. Right now they've got the 3-4 DEs to help/

I think the bigger problem is the LBers. Riley and Fletcher are two, but I don't know if Wilson, Jackson, or any of those other guys would cut it. Not to mention, Fletcher is declining. If Robinson was farther along in his development, then maybe, but atm, I don't think we have the personnel for the 3 part of the 4-3.

Not to mention, Orakpo is out, so our 4-3 DL would already be at a disadvantage.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Jenkins is like 310, I'm pretty sure he could get to 325 if he was asked.

[cphil006]

Quite possibly. Neither is really perfect for NT spot atm, both are south of 320, but Cofield got 3 sacks last year as NT, so he can rush. Jenkins hasn't shown that, but he's been decent in run defense. Have him eat up some blocks and let Cofield go for the QB. Maybe it'll work, maybe not, but the current situation isn't doing much.

---------- Post added November-1st-2012 at 01:16 PM ----------

I think the bigger problem is the LBers. Riley and Fletcher are two, but I don't know if Wilson, Jackson, or any of those other guys would cut it. Not to mention, Fletcher is declining. If Robinson was farther along in his development, then maybe, but atm, I don't think we have the personnel for the 3 part of the 4-3.

Not to mention, Orakpo is out, so our 4-3 DL would already be at a disadvantage.

Are you talking switching to a 4-3 this season? We lost a season switching to 3-4 because we had to find the right personnel. Should we give this more time? We don't have the talent in secondary. We are playing with back-ups at both safety positions. The only good team we match up well with is San Fran because they do short passes and run. We defend the run pretty good.

[cphil006]

Jenkins is like 310, I'm pretty sure he could get to 325 if he was asked.

And he'd enjoy doing it!

[pjfootballer]

I don't see many free agents who are better than Knighton, but that certainly doesn't mean we sign him. His issue has been how much extra weight he puts on in the offseason. Dude is a run stuffer. At 6-3 335 he's got good size, although I'd LOVE a 350+ nose tackle, but good ones don't exactly grow on trees.

Here are some guys in the draft that we could target that might be worth keeping an eye on:

Larry Black, Indiana - He's too small right now at only 309, but he could add some bulk to his frame. He's playing quite well for the Hoosiers right now.

Jesse Williams, Alabama - A Nick Saban defensive player, so he's got to have some upside. Problem is, he seems to be hurt consistently this year. Not a good thing for a team looking to draft a nose tackle. We'll see how the rest of the year goes.

Kwame Geathers, Georgia - Big guy. No, he's a HUGE guy. 6-6... 350. Part of the Bulldogs rotation. Solid football player. Someone to keep an eye on.

Daniel McCullers, Tennessee - Another man-mountain. 6-8, 360! Raw player but played quite well against the Gators OL, even forcing some pressures.

I saw a list of these guys on Walterfootball. Some of them are rated 1st or 2nd round and without a 1st round pick, we may not get one of these guys. But of course it's real early to tell exactly where these guys will fall in the draft. I am very, very so leaning towards using our 2nd round pick on NT this year. We have Chase Minnifield in the fold at CB, so I think CB can wait or we can get one in free agency.

[cphil006]

I saw a list of these guys on Walterfootball. Some of them are rated 1st or 2nd round and without a 1st round pick, we may not get one of these guys. But of course it's real early to tell exactly where these guys will fall in the draft. I am very, very so leaning towards using our 2nd round pick on NT this year. We have Chase Minnifield in the fold at CB, so I think CB can wait or we can get one in free agency.

Chase is a step slow and coming off knee surgery. Is he going to be a starter in the NFL? Hard to tell. I can't count on that.

[pjfootballer]

Chase is a step slow and coming off knee surgery. Is he going to be a starter in the NFL? Hard to tell. I can't count on that.

But to make the 3-4 work, we have to work from the inside out. Too many times, even when we had the 4-3, we were drafting safeties and corners, while the line looked like garbage. Get a big fatty in the middle that commands double teams, move Cofield back to DE, rotate in Bowen, Cariker and Jenkins at DE, get rid of Golston and roll with a CB either in free agency (doesn't have to be top of the line, one that will fit our defense) or 3rd round.

If you look at the Steelers defense (which we emulate), basically they've had a no name secondary (sans Polomalu), but their front 7 is lights out, especially with Hampton maning the middle.

[DogofWar1]

But to make the 3-4 work, we have to work from the inside out. Too many times, even when we had the 4-3, we were drafting safeties and corners, while the line looked like garbage. Get a big fatty in the middle that commands double teams, move Cofield back to DE, rotate in Bowen, Cariker and Jenkins at DE, get rid of Golston and roll with a CB either in free agency (doesn't have to be top of the line, one that will fit our defense) or 3rd round.

If you look at the Steelers defense (which we emulate), basically they've had a no name secondary (sans Polomalu), but their front 7 is lights out, especially with Hampton maning the middle.

Polomalu is a big difference maker though. You get someone like him at safety, or someone like Ed Reed, and you can get a lot of flexibility in the other areas. The flip side is true too, looking at the Giants, if you get a JPP, Osi, etc. grouping, the back end can be average and you'll have success (though Phillips has been pretty decent for them too).

The big thing there is one good safety can make a huge difference, while on the DL, unless we've got a Watt-like freak, we're going to need 2-3 guys there.

I'm not really disagreeing with anything you've said, I just want to stress that we need a core player at one safety position and at least an average starter at the other safety position before we'll really get rolling on defense.

I do really want a terrifying nose tackle too. Geathers or McCullers in the 3rd or 4th round would be good, Jesse Williams seems pretty close to what we currently have, so I'd be a little concerned taking him in the 2nd, which is where he probably goes.

[pjfootballer]

No problem DogofWar. I get where you are coming from. I wish I knew more about college prospects. Maybe I can do more research this year since I won't be doing Fantasy Football next year. Getting ready for our Fantasy Football season is alot of work since I'm the commissoner.