Robert and Cam are better than Tom and Peyton, but...

[Burgold]

[/color]That's right. If you graded QBs intelligently, you'd come to the same conclusion.

Peyton Manning isn't driving a Maserati and he is still putting up better numbers than Cutler, heck, Cutler even has Marshall as his engine.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING&conference=null&season=2012&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=PASSING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1

Or... last season, when Peyton went out we saw what happened to the entire Colts offensive. They went from perrenial playoff contenders to a team that very nearly went 0-16.

[GoSkins561]

[/color]That's right. If you graded QBs intelligently, you'd come to the same conclusion.

Peyton Manning isn't driving a Maserati and he is still putting up better numbers than Cutler, heck, Cutler even has Marshall as his engine.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING&conference=null&season=2012&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=PASSING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1

[Burgold]

[/color]That's right. If you graded QBs intelligently, you'd come to the same conclusion.

Peyton Manning isn't driving a Maserati and he is still putting up better numbers than Cutler, heck, Cutler even has Marshall as his engine.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING&conference=null&season=2012&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=PASSING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1

Or... last season, when Peyton went out we saw what happened to the entire Colts offensive. They went from perrenial playoff contenders to a team that very nearly went 0-16.

[KCClybun]

Cam is not better than Brady or Peyton Manning.

RGIII is not not better than Brady or Peyton Manning, yet.

But let's stick with Cam. Cam has not improved since his break out season last year. In fact, Cam's monster season slowed down significantly over the last few weeks of his rookie season as teams finally figured out how to defense him. This year, Cam has left big plays and points on the field, missing the kind of throws that Brady and Manning make routinely. I'm not saying they don't miss throws. But their knowledge of the games and of defense concepts outweighs the physical attriubutes they lack.

I know you view Tom Brady as a system quarterback, Oldfan; that you could basically put anyone in Tom Brady's place and the Patriots would be just fine. I seem to recall you saying that Marc Bulger physically was about the same as Brady and would put up the same numbers.

But Tom Brady is twice the quarterback Cam is right now. Cam leaves point on the field. He relies heavily on his run game and on his legs to move the chains. He misses wide open receivers because he still doesn't trust what he sees.

I mean, just look at this play;

Cam's got two touchdowns on this play and plenty of time to throw.. This is the kind of play that pre-snap Tom Brady diagnoses right away. But instead, Cam goes with this little swing out pass. Both those throws are throws Cam can easily make.

Cam's got Greg Olsen wide open down the seam, he's got no pressure, but on this play, he decided to scramble for 5.

Cam plays like that all the time. He doesn't trust what he sees. He trusts his legs more than his arm. Could he get better? Absolutely. Is he better than Brady or Manning now? Hell to the no.

[Ashburn Dave]

I also suggest people stop popping into the thread at this point just to "contribute" this kind of post (no reflection on AD who is a fine poster, himself). At this point it's a response worthy of a spam violation. Argue the OP.

If it came across as spam then my apologies. I was actually buying some of the OP until I read that comparison. Arguing with OF is a waste of time IMO based on how his other threads read. They can be entertaining and create a debating thread but he is set in his opinions so arguing can be a futile exercise. I'll move on from posting in this thread since I don't want to get myself in any further trouble.

[GoSkins561]

Or... last season, when Peyton went out we saw what happened to the entire Colts offensive. They went from perrenial playoff contenders to a team that very nearly went 0-16.

Yeah, i've been hung up on this argument that Jay Cutler is better than Manning for a while now, clearly do not understand what oldfan is trying to say.

[Oldfan]

[/color]That's right. If you graded QBs intelligently, you'd come to the same conclusion.

Peyton Manning isn't driving a Maserati and he is still putting up better numbers than Cutler, heck, Cutler even has Marshall as his engine.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING&conference=null&season=2012&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=PASSING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1

Peyton is running the same scheme he's used for 15 years. It's designed to put up useless numbers. I doubt he will win as many games as Tebow did in Denver.

---------- Post added October-6th-2012 at 02:24 PM ----------

Yeah, i've been hung up on this argument that Jay Cutler is better than Manning for a while now, clearly do not understand what oldfan is trying to say.

It's not rocket science. I don't grade QBs by team stats. I grade them on the tangibles -- what they can do with their arms and their legs. Manning can't pass as well as Jay Cutler and he doesn't use his legs as well as Cutler.

I could go a lot further into the finer points, but that's the bottom line.

[planter]

There are pocket passers and then there are POCKET passers.

Watch Brady' s pocket awareness, the peripheral vision, and ability to evade the pressure by taking a few quick steps .

Hopefully RG3 gets there.....with an occasional signature 30 yard scamper!

[Oldfan]

Cam is not better than Brady or Peyton Manning.

RGIII is not not better than Brady or Peyton Manning, yet.

But let's stick with Cam. Cam has not improved since his break out season last year. In fact, Cam's monster season slowed down significantly over the last few weeks of his rookie season as teams finally figured out how to defense him. This year, Cam has left big plays and points on the field, missing the kind of throws that Brady and Manning make routinely. I'm not saying they don't miss throws. But their knowledge of the games and of defense concepts outweighs the physical attriubutes they lack.

I know you view Tom Brady as a system quarterback, Oldfan; that you could basically put anyone in Tom Brady's place and the Patriots would be just fine. I seem to recall you saying that Marc Bulger physically was about the same as Brady and would put up the same numbers.

But Tom Brady is twice the quarterback Cam is right now. Cam leaves point on the field. He relies heavily on his run game and on his legs to move the chains. He misses wide open receivers because he still doesn't trust what he sees.

I mean, just look at this play;

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A4ZS8rICMAAWIi5.png:large

Cam's got two touchdowns on this play and plenty of time to throw.. This is the kind of play that pre-snap Tom Brady diagnoses right away. But instead, Cam goes with this little swing out pass. Both those throws are throws Cam can easily make.

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1232513/takethedeepshot_medium.png

Cam's got Greg Olsen wide open down the seam, he's got no pressure, but on this play, he decided to scramble for 5.

Cam plays like that all the time. He doesn't trust what he sees. He trusts his legs more than his arm. Could he get better? Absolutely. Is he better than Brady or Manning now? Hell to the no.

My argument has to do with the talent demonstrated by Cam and Robert compared to the talent demonstrated by Brady and Manning. I'm not saying that Cam makes less mistakes than those two or that RG3 is playing his scheme perfectly. I'm saying that Manning and Brady, on their own, will never present the threat to defenses that Robert and Cam represent.

[KCClybun]

[/color]It's not rocket science. I don't grade QBs by team stats. I grade them on the tangibles -- what they can do with their arms and their legs. Manning can't pass as well as Jay Cutler and he doesn't use his legs as well as Cutler.

I could go a lot further into the finer points, but that's the bottom line.

In his first 7 seasons, Manning had a 63.5 completion percentage, 29,442 passing yards, 6 seasons with over 4,000 yards passing, threw an average of 31 touchdowns and 17 interceptions a season.

In Cutler's 6 full seasons he has a 61.1 completion percentage, 18,283 passing yards, only one season with 4,000 yards passing, and throws an average of 21 touchdowns to 14 interceptions a season.

Does Jay have a better physical skillset than Peyton? Yeah. Is Jay a better quarterback than Peyton? No. For many of the same reasons that Cam having a better physical skillset doesn't make him a better quarterback. Jay certainly hasn't always had the best talent around him, but Cutler has a knack for untimely turnovers, there are times when he pats and holds the ball too long waiting for somethingg to come open, and overall his desposition can leave must to leave desired.

It seems to me that you want to remove statistics and intangibles from the discussion to better fit your definition of what a great quarterback is.

[Oldfan]

There are pocket passers and then there are POCKET passers.

Watch Brady' s pocket awareness, the peripheral vision, and ability to evade the pressure by taking a few quick steps .

Sorry, Amigo. I read that as pure hype. I have Brady's arm graded A, but I have six or seven others graded as highly.

[HeluCopter29]

I actually agree with a lot of this. Do I think that Chad Pennington is as good as Joe Montana? No. But if you compared stats of years when Chad started most of the year vs. some of Joe's seasons I think most people on this board would be extremely surprised.

I actually think the Eli Manning and if he's an elite QB argument plays really well into this. Eli has won the big one more then Peyton, Young, Marino, Dan Fouts, and many others have. But is Eli honestly nearly as good as any of those guys are/were in their prime? The answer is no, so you can't just say he's elite because he won two super bowls. It's not as if Eli hasn't had the benefit of a stellar defense and lot's of weapons on offense or anything.... He still came back and beat the Eagles without Hakeem Nicks, right? So no, you should not be super impressed by stats and super bowls because they are largely a product of supporting casts.

As far as if QB-athletes are better then pocket passers (Is Cam better then Peyton) there is a point to be made that Cam can't beat you in more ways and keep you off balance. But he also said there are a number of issues with a team having a dual threat QB like RGIII and Cam. In fact, OF said himself that he doesn't know which one is better if the goal is to win championships.

Last point: If you think Joe T should be in the HOF, you should put more stock into OF's argument. It's got a lot of what people have been saying in it.

[Oldfan]

In his first 7 seasons, Manning had a 63.5 completion percentage, 29,442 passing yards, 6 seasons with over 4,000 yards passing, threw an average of 31 touchdowns and 17 interceptions a season.

In Cutler's 6 full seasons he has a 61.1 completion percentage, 18,283 passing yards, only one season with 4,000 yards passing, and throws an average of 21 touchdowns to 14 interceptions a season.

Does Jay have a better physical skillset than Peyton? Yeah. Is Jay a better quarterback than Peyton? No. For many of the same reasons that Cam having a better physical skillset doesn't make him a better quarterback. Jay certainly hasn't always had the best talent around him, but Cutler has a knack for untimely turnovers, there are times when he pats and holds the ball too long waiting for somethingg to come open, and overall his desposition can leave must to leave desired.

It seems to me that you want to remove statistics and intangibles from the discussion to better fit your definition of what a great quarterback is.

Well, let's begin with the statistics you offered allegedly comparing Manning and Cutler. Why are they useful if our objective is a fair comparison?

We cannot fairly grade and compare QBs on their actual performances which are so drastically influenced by their supporting casts. One QB might be playing to 80% of his potential while another is at 50%. We cannot tell which QB has the greater potential by watching their actual performances or by looking at stats which measure the actual performance.

[planter]

Sorry, Amigo. I read that as pure hype. I have Brady's arm graded A, but I have six or seven others graded as highly.

Heh? You have a grading system. First, HOF Dude. First vote.

Also I forgot to mention that excessive scampering can shorten a QB's career.

Especially a QB w/o Hogs.

[Oldfan]

Heh? You have a grading system. First, HOF Dude. First vote.

I use those grades here so that you and others understand me.

Also I forgot to mention that excessive scampering can shorten a QB's career.

I covered that in the OP.

[MartinC]

It's not rocket science. I don't grade QBs by team stats. I grade them on the tangibles -- what they can do with their arms and their legs. Manning can't pass as well as Jay Cutler and he doesn't use his legs as well as Cutler.

I could go a lot further into the finer points, but that's the bottom line.

I think you know that I agree with you that supporting cast plays a huge part in how a QB performs. But I have to pick you up on the point you make above - Cutler is a better passer than Peyton.

First lets define some terms - when I talk about passing its more than just the ability to throw a football hard or even accurately. It's the ability to know where to go with the ball based on coverage, game situation, your personnel amd the defensive personnel - and your own limitations. It's the ability to do this and execute consistently to a high level under pressure from the defense, the scoreboard and the game pressure.

I would certainly agree that Cutler is a better thrower than Manning but IMO Manning has shown he is a much better passer than Cutler.

[Oldfan]

I think you know that I agree with you that supporting cast plays a huge part in how a QB performs. But I have to pick you up on the point you make above - Cutler is a better passer than Peyton.

First lets define some terms - when I talk about passing it more than just the ability to throw a football hard or even accurately. It's the ability to know where to go with the ball based on coverage, game situation, your personnel amd the defensive personnel - and your own limitations. It's the ability to do this and execute consistently to a high level under pressure from the defense, the scoreboard and the game pressure.

I would certainly agree that Cutler is a better thrower than Manning but IMO Manning has shown he is a much better passer than Cutler.

When I talk about passing, I mean only the ability to throw a football. Those other factors you mention come under the heading of intangibles for me. I don't see how you can fairly grade those two QBs on how they perform under pressure when one of them has been under far more pressure than the other. The Jets put Brady under pressure a couple of years ago. His QB rating was 50. He was throwing INTs off his back foot even when the pressure didn't come. In their next meeting the same year, he was well-protected. His QBR was over 100.

[brdawk20]

Intangibles cannot be dismissed. While they are difficult (if not damn near impossible) to measure, the outcomes (wins) are not. There is a reason why most playoff games and SB's have NOT been won by these so-called athletic quaterbacks. There is a reason why fantastic athletes like Randall Cunnigham and Michael Vick have no Super Bowl wins. You can't name another QB with the combination of arm strength and speed that those guys have, or had. Tony Romo sits to pee is quite moblie and just fails in the playoffs. Tartkenton never won the big one. Steve Young is the only true athletic mobile QB that has won a Super Bowl--well, Elway, but Elway was near the end and not nearly as mobile as he was in previous years. Speaking of being near the end, Cunningham had his great year in Minnesota after age forced him to slow down his game.

What one needs to do is identify these intangibles and make sense of them. One intangible that can be looked at that way is coaching. Why do some players, or teams, excel under one coach but not another? I have three former students of mine in the NFL. 14 former students play D1 football. An NFL coach is my neighbor. Every one of them talks about intangibles, or an "it" factor. It is there. I can say from my own experience about it. I played baseball for 17 years, three of them as a pitcher at a D1 school (rotator cuff injuries ended my average career). All of my teammates were great athletes. So why are three of them on MLB rosters but the others are not? Is it speed? Power? Knowledge of the sport? Work ethic? Coaching? Let's look at QB's in this vein. Every NFL QB can throw a ball 60 yards. Every QB has at least some degree of mobility (well, maybe not Eli and Ben). Every QB knows how to grip a ball, what a curl is, an out pattern is, how to lead a receiver, blah blah blah. But not every QB can pick up the blitz, read a defense, or be cool under fire when their o-line pulls a Rabach and gives an "ole!" block. Why?

Guess what? I can't tell you why, because I can't give a true accurate measurement of why. But I (and a lot of NFL fans, coaches, players, and commentators) can also say from observation that certain QB's CAN read a defense or pick up a blitz, or not panic and get happy feet when their line breaks down. The fact that I don't know how to accurately measure what I see doesn't mean that it can be discounted. Frankly, I'm not going against the best experts--coaches and players in the game. Intangibles cannot be dismissed, since they do indeed count. If you say they shouldn't, then you are up against the opinion of players and coaches alike.

[MartinC]

There is a reason why most playoff games and SB's have NOT been won by these so-called athletic quaterbacks. There is a reason why fantastic athletes like Randall Cunnigham and Michael Vick have no Super Bowl wins. You can't name another QB with the combination of arm strength and speed that those guys have, or had. Tony Romo sits to pee is quite moblie and just fails in the playoffs. Tartkenton never won the big one. Steve Young is the only true athletic mobile QB that has won a Super Bowl--well, Elway, but Elway was near the end and not nearly as mobile as he was in previous years. Speaking of being near the end, Cunningham had his great year in Minnesota after age forced him to slow down his game..

Joe Montana was a very mobile QB - he had 59 yards rushing in the Super Bowl win against Dan Marinos Dolphins for example.

[brdawk20]

Joe Montana was a very mobile QB - he had 59 yards rushing in the Super Bowl win against Dan Marinos Dolphins for example.

Yeah, forgot about Joe, but he was no speed burner a la Vick, or even Young. He had a sense of where to go and what it took to get there. Not sure how to measure that though either.

[MartinC]

When I talk about passing, I mean only the ability to throw a football. Those other factors you mention come under the heading of intangibles for me..

But there is a lot more to being a successful QB than the ability to throw a football. If you are only grading based on these physical aspects your grade is incomplete - and I know you realise that.

The point you make about throwing under pressure from the defense is fair - just about any QB will perform better given better protection. Again I do agree that the supporting cast - of which pass protection is an important element - is important in a QBs production.

So is the ability to read coverages, anticipate receivers coming out of breaks, seeing where pressure is coming from and getting in the right protection, knowing where your hot read is against a specific blitz and making the right decisions based on processing all this information. You may say that this all intangible and then dismiss it from your ratings but to me that's as wrong as the fan who says a QB is great because the team he plays on won lots of games.

Of course it's very hard to grade these intangibles, maybe impossible for a fan, but that does not diminish their importance.

[newday]

Sometimes a thesis can come in handy.

What is the OP's point?

[jly0784]

how does jay cutlers attitude effect your opinion? he nearly lost his team after that packers game by throwing his line under the bus, and his bad attitude problems have been well known since he was in college... he may be very gifted, but you do not do what he did to your teammates on national tv... look at brady, manning, brees etc and you will see qbs who lead their teams by example, and when they yell at a teammate it almost always causes in improvement and gets them on the same page

[Oldfan]

Intangibles cannot be dismissed. While they are difficult (if not damn near impossible) to measure, the outcomes (wins) are not. There is a reason why most playoff games and SB's have NOT been won by these so-called athletic quaterbacks. There is a reason why fantastic athletes like Randall Cunnigham and Michael Vick have no Super Bowl wins. You can't name another QB with the combination of arm strength and speed that those guys have, or had. Tony Romo sits to pee is quite moblie and just fails in the playoffs. Tartkenton never won the big one. Steve Young is the only true athletic mobile QB that has won a Super Bowl--well, Elway, but Elway was near the end and not nearly as mobile as he was in previous years. Speaking of being near the end, Cunningham had his great year in Minnesota after age forced him to slow down his game.

What one needs to do is identify these intangibles and make sense of them. One intangible that can be looked at that way is coaching. Why do some players, or teams, excel under one coach but not another? I have three former students of mine in the NFL. 14 former students play D1 football. An NFL coach is my neighbor. Every one of them talks about intangibles, or an "it" factor. It is there. I can say from my own experience about it. I played baseball for 17 years, three of them as a pitcher at a D1 school (rotator cuff injuries ended my average career). All of my teammates were great athletes. So why are three of them on MLB rosters but the others are not? Is it speed? Power? Knowledge of the sport? Work ethic? Coaching? Let's look at QB's in this vein. Every NFL QB can throw a ball 60 yards. Every QB has at least some degree of mobility (well, maybe not Eli and Ben). Every QB knows how to grip a ball, what a curl is, an out pattern is, how to lead a receiver, blah blah blah. But not every QB can pick up the blitz, read a defense, or be cool under fire when their o-line pulls a Rabach and gives an "ole!" block. Why?

Guess what? I can't tell you why, because I can't give a true accurate measurement of why. But I (and a lot of NFL fans, coaches, players, and commentators) can also say from observation that certain QB's CAN read a defense or pick up a blitz, or not panic and get happy feet when their line breaks down. The fact that I don't know how to accurately measure what I see doesn't mean that it can be discounted. Frankly, I'm not going against the best experts--coaches and players in the game. Intangibles cannot be dismissed, since they do indeed count. If you say they shouldn't, then you are up against the opinion of players and coaches alike.

@ I did not say that intangibles don't count. What I said was that I disregard intangibles when comparing QBs because they can't be accurately measured. When people say that Tom Brady is better than Jay Cutler and they cite intangibles as the difference my BS detector goes off. They can't explain the wins by tangible evidence of a superior QB so they make something up.

@ Good athlete-QBs have been rare in the past which would explain why pocket passers have won more Super Bowls.

@ Once past the Xs and Os, coaches, players and commentators don't impress me with their knowledge of the game. It's not hard to spot their mistakes in reasoning or their misuse of statistics. What I'm offering here is a logical argument. Telling me that I'm wrong because most people disagree is a logical fallacy.

---------- Post added October-6th-2012 at 04:21 PM ----------

how does jay cutlers attitude effect your opinion? he nearly lost his team after that packers game by throwing his line under the bus, and his bad attitude problems have been well known since he was in college... he may be very gifted, but you do not do what he did to your teammates on national tv... look at brady, manning, brees etc and you will see qbs who lead their teams by example, and when they yell at a teammate it almost always causes in improvement and gets them on the same page

I think any QB who berate his teammate on nation TV is a prick. I don't care if his name is Cutler, Brady, Manning or Brees. Other will call it leadership when Brady or Manning does it.

---------- Post added October-6th-2012 at 04:20 PM ----------

how does jay cutlers attitude effect your opinion? he nearly lost his team after that packers game by throwing his line under the bus, and his bad attitude problems have been well known since he was in college... he may be very gifted, but you do not do what he did to your teammates on national tv... look at brady, manning, brees etc and you will see qbs who lead their teams by example, and when they yell at a teammate it almost always causes in improvement and gets them on the same page

I think any QB who berate his teammate on nation TV is a prick. I don't care if his name is Cutler, Brady, Manning or Brees. Other will call it leadership when Brady or Manning does it.

[jly0784]

@ I did not say that intangibles don't count. What I said was that I disregard intangibles when comparing QBs because they can't be accurately measured. When people say that Tom Brady is better than Jay Cutler and they cite intangibles as the difference my BS detector goes off. They can't explain the wins by tangible evidence of a superior QB so they make something up.

@ Good athlete-QBs have been rare in the past which would explain why pocket passers have won more Super Bowls.

@ Once past the Xs and Os, coaches, players and commentators don't impress me with their knowledge of the game. It's not hard to spot their mistakes in reasoning or their misuse of statistics. What I'm offering here is a logical argument. Telling me that I'm wrong because most people disagree is a logical fallacy.

---------- Post added October-6th-2012 at 04:21 PM ----------

I think any QB who berate his teammate on nation TV is a prick. I don't care if his name is Cutler, Brady, Manning or Brees. Other will call it leadership when Brady or Manning does it.

---------- Post added October-6th-2012 at 04:20 PM ----------

I think any QB who berate his teammate on nation TV is a prick. I don't care if his name is Cutler, Brady, Manning or Brees. Other will call it leadership when Brady or Manning does it.

thing is we dont know what they are saying, i mean id get angry if a 275lb defensive end or LB blindsided me or came in untouched lol... but cutler physically put his hands on his lineman, where as the others may yell, but it benefits the team