Always A Commander Never A Captain Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Montgomery viewed as a sub-par run blocker last season. When/how did he improve so much this season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortisBetts Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Montgomery viewed as a sub-par run blocker last season. When/how did he improve so much this season? Montgomery has been the best player on the line hands down sans Trent. He has been awfully impressive holding his ground and making good blocks and calls. Last season, he was pushed around a lot more and you are right, wasnt a very good run blocker. He is one of the players that a full offseason has really impacted his play in a positive way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Montgomery has been the best player on the line hands down sans Trent. He has been awfully impressive holding his ground and making good blocks and calls. Last season, he was pushed around a lot more and you are right, wasnt a very good run blocker. He is one of the players that a full offseason has really impacted his play in a positive way. Yeah, Montgomery has been quietly playing pretty well. Graz has put him on his all-NFC east team for the past couple weeks, which I think shows that he's not too terrible, Graz usually doesn't mince words too much when talking about players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComManDersFan57 Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Thanks - great thread! I'll be checking it each week. Like most fans I just watch the performance of the line as a whole. It's great to have these individualized stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 The best way I can tell you how I grade is how the lineman keeps a man contained. In other words if he keeps the man out of the play via a solid block, a chop, or out positioning I will give him credit for a solid block. If the play breaks down due to a receiver not getting open I will not fault the blocker.If you don't mind my 2 cents.So do you consider a stalemate at the POA win or a push? How do you grade second level blocks or movement blocks? I think mixing the pass protection grade to passing game is a slippery slope. Imho I think having a set time standard for pass protection based on depth of the QB drop would be a less subjective measure. e.g.-a 3 step drop vs 5 step drop vs 7 step drop. then have a set length of time for each drop depth. So if a OL sustained a block for enough time based on the depth of drop it doesn't matter what the receivers were doing and conversely if a WR is open after 4 seconds but the QB took a 5 step drop its not really their fault if the QB hasn't gotten rid of the ball. As for the help that the lineman get it isn't as much as one may think. The tight ends usually will be one on one with a block believe it or not. The running backs will pick up a blitzer. For some reason I havent seen the Skins do much double teaming with the backs and tight ends. You will see the guards helping with the center and visa versa but I believe this is do to scheme more than anything.I'm not sure I agree with this.This scheme both in the run and in the pass game has a lot of combination and help blocks. In the run game its not uncommon to have a double team at the POA followed by a peel off to the second level. If you take Jordan Black for example he got a lot of help. Sometimes they had Davis/Paulsen actually block the end while Black would double w/ Kory on the DT. Sometime the TE and OT take the DE together. Either way, you're doing a solid by doing this task. I know it can be tedious and for that I thank you. -Hail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordranger76 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 If you don't mind my 2 cents.So do you consider a stalemate at the POA win or a push? How do you grade second level blocks or movement blocks? I think mixing the pass protection grade to passing game is a slippery slope. Imho I think having a set time standard for pass protection based on depth of the QB drop would be a less subjective measure. e.g.-a 3 step drop vs 5 step drop vs 7 step drop. then have a set length of time for each drop depth. So if a OL sustained a block for enough time based on the depth of drop it doesn't matter what the receivers were doing and conversely if a WR is open after 4 seconds but the QB took a 5 step drop its not really their fault if the QB hasn't gotten rid of the ball. I'm not sure I agree with this. This scheme both in the run and in the pass game has a lot of combination and help blocks. In the run game its not uncommon to have a double team at the POA followed by a peel off to the second level. If you take Jordan Black for example he got a lot of help. Sometimes they had Davis/Paulsen actually block the end while Black would double w/ Kory on the DT. Sometime the TE and OT take the DE together. Either way, you're doing a solid by doing this task. I know it can be tedious and for that I thank you. -Hail A stalemate for me is a win. If no leverage is gained on either side in a pass play that blocker did a good job in my eyes. However if it is a run play and the blocker say needs to open a hole but doesn't he will 9 times out of 10 get a negative due to the running back having to find another hole or break it to the outside. As for second level blocks I pay very close attention to these as most of them do not result in a good block. Tyler Polumbus is the worst at this as he never gets his man at all. Not even a piece. As for movement I expect the blocker to get to lets say a streaking corner or an outside backer on the play design. I have seen Montgomery do this quite a bit with so so success. If they can put a hat on the guy that they are expected to block and either hold him up or take him out of the play entirely he will get a positive. This is where a lot of the missed cutbacks come into play because right side of the line just isnt quick enough to set that outside edge and they wind up failing miserably. Now as for the Qb drop back I also watch that very closely. I know a lot of plays are designed for say 3, 5, or 7 but usually you will come to see that the blocker either has it at that point (the block) or he simply gives up on the play such as Chester has been doing so in other words if they are being lazy they will get a negative for it. And really its the best I can do as a viewer to come to a logical decision on the block because the camera angles only show so much on any given play. And do not get me wrong with the running game. Of course they use a lot of double teams but its just not to a crazy extent. A lot of them will be a chip block and the zone scheme is taking the rest. It is really interesting to watch them do this because you can tell which guys heads are on a swivel and who have no clue whats going on around them. I will probably extend it eventually to the te and rb blocking but this is the best I can do for now given the time it takes for the review itself. And I appreciate all of the positive comments for this thread and I think I may even include a pancake number with it as well to see which guys are putting their guy on the ground. Might shed a little more light on leverage and strength of our line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 I will probably extend it eventually to the te and rb blocking but this is the best I can do for now given the time it takes for the review itself. And I appreciate all of the positive comments for this thread and I think I may even include a pancake number with it as well to see which guys are putting their guy on the ground. Might shed a little more light on leverage and strength of our line.No, no I hear yah about the time it takes bro, I'll be looking forward to this thread in the future. You mind if I shoot you a PM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangee7 Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 FR76 - just wanted to say thanks. i do appreciate the effort. Not many of us give the o-line the attention it deserves. Keep up the great work. Hail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildbill1952 Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Just seems that giving an "effective block" to a lineman on a play that went the other way is like giving a "good catch" to a receiver that didn't catch the ball because it was thrown to someone else. It skews the average. An offensive linemen should be heading downfield, looking to hit someone on a running play. At best, not counting the play for that OL seems better. Sort of like not counting a walk or a hit by pitch in baseball as an at-bat. Just saying. Thanks for the work. But goiving someone credit for being on the field when he didn't do anything to help the play makes each OL look better than he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordranger76 Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 No, no I hear yah about the time it takes bro, I'll be looking forward to this thread in the future.http://journalmetrocom.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/opinion-renvoi-web-liste-du-lundi.jpg?w=123&h=81&crop=1 You mind if I shoot you a PM? Not at all! ---------- Post added September-28th-2012 at 06:36 AM ---------- Just seems that giving an "effective block" to a lineman on a play that went the other way is like giving a "good catch" to a receiver that didn't catch the ball because it was thrown to someone else. It skews the average. An offensive linemen should be heading downfield, looking to hit someone on a running play. At best, not counting the play for that OL seems better. Sort of like not counting a walk or a hit by pitch in baseball as an at-bat.Just saying. Thanks for the work. But goiving someone credit for being on the field when he didn't do anything to help the play makes each OL look better than he is. Well here is the thing with this. On the roll outs for a pass its a misdirection play. In effect the lineman has to carry the fake out just as well as the Quarterback does if you think about it. If the lineman gives away where the play is actually going chances are the Qb is going to get smacked in the mouth. And like I said this isnt a perfect science and I do make mistakes. Also helps keep the numbers even. And lets face it if the lineman screwed up on the play they would wind up getting a negative anyways. As for a run play a second level block is accounted for but you have to remember the main job on a run is to open a hole and not get down field on a block. That is when a tight end and wide receiver get their chance to shine on a block. And do not get me wrong I know on certain plays the lineman has to go down field if that is his role on a certain play and if that is his job then he will be graded if he did that effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangee7 Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Just seems that giving an "effective block" to a lineman on a play that went the other way is like giving a "good catch" to a receiver that didn't catch the ball because it was thrown to someone else. It skews the average. An offensive linemen should be heading downfield, looking to hit someone on a running play. At best, not counting the play for that OL seems better. Sort of like not counting a walk or a hit by pitch in baseball as an at-bat.Just saying. Thanks for the work. But goiving someone credit for being on the field when he didn't do anything to help the play makes each OL look better than he is. I see it differently.... the analogy of crediting a WR for catch he didn't make doesn't fit. You could credit the receiver for a good route, drawing coverage away from the play, etc. - but you can't give credit for a good catch unless its made. The credit for a good block is different...the Block was actually made. An offside block is sometimes the one that springs a big gain. Many plays start one way, only to be cut back. That offside block is sometimes the difference between a few yards and a big play. Especially with the speed in today's game. A guy like JPP can chase plays all over the field. You gotta give credit where credit is due. Hail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahons21 Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Nothing to add other than, great work! I'm excited to watch these stats through the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordranger76 Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 My week 4 impressions are as follows. Trent Williams is not only becoming good he is becoming elite. Yes I said elite. He blocks his man. Numerous times he takes him to the ground and out of the play. All of this on a bad knee. To the people that say he is a bust and not worth the draft pick you are so very very wrong. Lichtensteiger took a step back this week. The Bucs had him confused on their scheme on quite a few plays. Also had two very costly false starts at key moments of the game. He just looked out of sync the whole game. Montgomery was stellar again in the pass game. He is doing just outstanding in that department. Running game was so so for him this week but very passable against the hard nose Bucs run defense. Chris Chester. Yikes. He is getting worse every week. This is going to become a huge cause for concern because not only does he appear lazy on more and more plays but oblivious to what the play is. If you watch him he is always checking back looking at RG3 as if he doesn't know when the snap is. Polumbus however I am very proud of this week for the effort he gave. He looked much improved in the passing game this week although he did miss a few guys. Hopefully he continues to trend upward. Overall play of the line I say was decent. Alfred Morris gets a lot of the credit for the yards this week because after further review he was the one creating most of the opportunities. I suppose they didn't do all that bad considering where the Bucs were ranked against the run. Passing game I thought they did an adequate job. A couple drops by the receivers and a bad throw or two from RG3 limited the scoring chances via the pass. All in all a solid effort this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~*JurgyFan*~ Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Chris Chester. Yikes. He is getting worse every week. This is going to become a huge cause for concern because not only does he appear lazy on more and more plays but oblivious to what the play is. If you watch him he is always checking back looking at RG3 as if he doesn't know when the snap is. Makes me wonder if this may be why LeRibeus was activated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rookieskin Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 So Will Mongtomery is our steadiest, most consistant lineman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samurai Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 If you watch him he is always checking back looking at RG3 as if he doesn't know when the snap is. QUOTE]If I'm not mistaken, and I very well could be, they do this on purpose. Chester looks back at RG3 to see when he's ready. When RG3 gives the sign, then Chester pats Montgomery letting him know he can snap the ball. Hey man, this is becoming the thread I look forward to most, along with the comprehensive draft thread! Good stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordranger76 Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 So Will Mongtomery is our steadiest, most consistant lineman? He is. When he gets beat though he gets pushed back into the play. If he does not get beat however he locks onto his guy and that is usually the end of it for the defender. Through 4 games he has rocked it. ---------- Post added October-4th-2012 at 09:47 AM ---------- If you watch him he is always checking back looking at RG3 as if he doesn't know when the snap is. QUOTE]If I'm not mistaken, and I very well could be, they do this on purpose. Chester looks back at RG3 to see when he's ready. When RG3 gives the sign, then Chester pats Montgomery letting him know he can snap the ball. Hey man, this is becoming the thread I look forward to most, along with the comprehensive draft thread! Good stuff! Very well could be why Chester looks back I dunno. Makes sense in theory. I look at it as another reason he gets beat though haha. But honestly you could very well be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Thanks for the work, fine sir. This thread is sweet. I'm glad you're liking Trent Williams as much as I am. I tend to pay more attention to him just because he's such an amazing athlete, especially in space. And Chester does look a little lost. Might be Ribeye time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins2victory Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Wow..... Thanks for putting all of this together. This must have taken some time and effort. Well done!!! HTTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BucketHTTR Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 This is not 100$% but its awesome info. I told everyone that Montgomery is having his best year and at a all pro level. People are always beating up our line but TW and Monty are very good atm. If we can get a steady RT next year we will be set for our system. Isnt there a projected FA RT that Shanny drafted on the market next year? Forgot his name.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordranger76 Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share Posted October 11, 2012 Week 5 impressions. Trent Williams was his normal solid self especially in pass blocking. He only missed 4 plays out of the total 27 and he the best guy we got period. Lichtensteiger was solid. Montgomery continues his All Pro level this year but was slightly pushed back during some plays of the running game. Chris Chester imo continues to degress and I feel that he is going to possibly lose his starting job before the season is over. Tyler Polumbus? Wow did he improve this week. He was blocking his man much more correctly on both passing and running especially the passing. Hopefully he continues to keep improving. The line as a whole was fantastic. I mean it. We should have had that game and won it handily. This is my honest assessment. They were holding their passing blocks for plenty of time and the holes they were creating in the run game were outstanding. Even the second level blocking was spot on. This one slipped away folks but not due to our line at all. RG3 in this game for the whole thing would have won it. A quick look at Kirk Cousins and watching him in the pocket gave me not good things. I know it was his first taste of NFL action and I fully expect him to grow as a player but he had the pocket presence of Beck and the stare down of Grossman. Not a good combo at all. Against the Vikings coming up if the defense holds and the blockers do a repeat of this game we should have another 30 or 40 points as long as the receivers catch a few balls this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~*JurgyFan*~ Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Thanks for the update! Very encouraging words about a rather maligned o-line. Let's hope they keep getting better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 fordranger, good work again. I'm learning a lot and confirming more. Will Montgomery has played his ass off this year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always A Commander Never A Captain Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Chris Chester imo continues to degress and I feel that he is going to possibly lose his starting job before the season is over.... Even the second level blocking was spot on. I enjoy reading your input every week. Is Chester at least doing well in the second level, or is he also struggling to reach his man? I'm ok with seeing more time from our current rookie guards. LeRibeus could give us a nice boost, and also that carnie stabbing meanness that our line needs more of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordranger76 Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share Posted October 11, 2012 I enjoy reading your input every week. Is Chester at least doing well in the second level, or is he also struggling to reach his man? I'm ok with seeing more time from our current rookie guards. LeRibeus could give us a nice boost, and also that carnie stabbing meanness that our line needs more of. He gets a block at the second level here and there but he is the type of guy that turns his head around to see where the back is going instead of snaring the guy infront of him which results in him missing completely a lot of the times. I still think he just flat out looks confused way too much. He is clearly the most confused of the front 5 when they line up and it is showing more and more every week. I'm not advocating replacing him just yet however because I really think if LeRibeus was ready he would be in there but I do see a replacement coming and if I had to guess it will be after the bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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