Obamacare...(new title): GOP DEATH PLAN: Don-Ryan's Express

[Larry]

The IRS can tell me which amount goes where in a 1040.

 

so your point is they made the ACA form so simple it is incomprehensible to those being paid to assist with it? 

 

throw in it is a crime if you put the wrong amount

Funny, I've said absolutely nothing of the kind.

However, you have come kinda close to my point, and I didn't actually come out and state it. Yes, I have no doubt that the form is probably overly simplistic, especially for special-case applicants. And I'm not surprised at all that the help desk people are poorly trained to help said special-case applicants.

And yes, I think it's a legit complaint, despite the "it's brand new" excuses. Small business owners are supposedly one of the targets which this system is supposedly designed to help, so I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect them to have planned for that segment.

[chipwhich]

You haven't mentioned any facts, and are either delusional or dishonest as to my beliefs. (My money's on the latter.)

So, if you're waiting for my sympathy for how tough it is, then please, just imagine that you have it.

 

I have posted nothing but facts.  If I made a delusional post, please show it, you can't.  Dishonest to your beliefs means you either don't understand or it's against your agenda.  I don't have an agenda, just like to show people what they don't know with regards to Obamacare.

You proved my point earlier in this thread when discussing the costs of your moms prescription drug medications.  Of course when I responded, and you were faced with truths and facts, you disappeared.

 

Next time I am delusional, please call me out on it.  I will try to do better to appeal to your understanding. 

[Larry]

I have posted nothing but facts.

Really?

 

Dishonest to your beliefs means you either don't understand or it's against your agenda.

Could you please cite your authority to announce your ability to read my mind?  I'm kinda curious. 

 

I don't have an agenda . . . .

 

Your posts would appear to suggest otherwise.  Rather strongly, in fact. 

 

You proved my point earlier in this thread when discussing the costs of your moms prescription drug medications.  Of course when I responded, and you were faced with truths and facts, you disappeared.

 

 

Uh, I'm a bit curious as to this posts in which I discussed the cost of my mom's prescription drug medications.  Frankly, I don;t even know the cost of my mom's prescription drug medications.  I'd have to grab her tax return off the shelf (or pull it up from the computer) to even find out what it was. 

 

I'm also curious as to this mythical conversation in which

 

1)  I said something about the cost of Mom's medications,

 

2)  And you knew more about the price of her medications than I did. 

 

So, if you find some place where this conversation took place, could you be so kind as to tell me where you managed to obtain your "truths and facts" of the price of her medications?  Thanks. 

 

Next time I am delusional, please call me out on it.

 

 

Does . . .

 

I don't have an agenda . . . .

 

 

. . . count as "next time"?  Or does it have to be in a subsequent post? 

[chipwhich]

Speaking as someone who has filed tax returns for my parents, claiming like $80K a year in tax deductions because of medical expenses, for six years in a row, I'm pretty certain that if medical expenses weren't deductible, before, the IRS would have told me I couldn't do that.

 

Seemed to suit your argument here, I guess you went to the tax filing cabinet this night after a few drinks?

Your other posts mentions about your moms prescription drug costs.

You bailed out of that conversation as your facts supported my claims.

[Larry]

Seemed to suit your argument here, I guess you went to the tax filing cabinet this night after a few drinks?

Your other posts mentions about your moms prescription drug costs.

 

You might, if you look closely, observe that the word "prescriptions" do not appear anywhere within that post.

 

You bailed out of that conversation as your facts supported my claims.

 

 

 

"I bailed out"? 

 

Of the next 10 posts, after the one you quoted, 3 are from me, and 6 are from you. 

 

"as [my] facts supported [your] claims"? 

 

Your claims went from claiming that paying your insurance deductible isn't tax deductible, to claiming that well, they're deductible, but only if they exceed a portion of your income, to saying that nursing home care isn't a health care expense. 

 

 

(Well, that's if you don't pay attention to your claims that my parents are rich, and that they're getting 35% of their money back, which I chose not to challenge because I really don't feel like posting a bunch of irrelevant things that aren't any of your business to begin with, just so I can demonstrate how another one of the things you made up to attack me with, wasn't true, either.) 

 

 

 

Please, tell me which of your "claims" "my facts supported".  

Edited October 27, 2013 by Larry

[chipwhich]

 

Your claims went from claiming that paying your insurance deductible isn't tax deductible, to claiming that well, they're deductible, but only if they exceed a portion of your income, to saying that nursing home care isn't a health care expense.

 

You might want to stick with the facts Larry, and reread the posts.

 

First off your prescriptions comment was in another post.

Secondly, I made no claims.  The conversation was you posted a question asking about tax deductions, I responded basically I didn't know but assumed it was as it is today which is it has to be above a certain percent of your income to be tax deductible.

 

Simply pointing out you are fortunate enough to be rich to pay $80K out of pocket.  My point all along is Obamacare puts everyone in that same boat.  Just most aren't as lucky as you to have $80 grand sitting around year after year.

No delusions Larry, just reality of the future.

No agenda here either, I like to debate with factual information, you probably post the word GOP or Republican more than all of my posts combined, which to me is tattooed with agenda.

Your lucky, you don't have to have Obamacare, so for you it's great!

[Larry]

You might want to stick with the facts Larry, and reread the posts.

Read them before I posted. (I do that, you see.)

 

First off your prescriptions comment was in another post.

 

Yes, I'm aware of that. 

 

Remember the progression? 

 

1)  You make the claim that earlier in the thread, I commented about mom's prescription costs, you responded with "truth and facts", and I "disappeared"  (Immediately after announcing that "[You] have posted nothing but facts".) 

 

2)  I asked you to support this claim. 

 

3)  You respond by quoting a post of mine in which I pointed out that medical expenses are tax deductible. 

 

4)  I point out this fact. 

 

5)  You respond by pointing out that I mentioned Mom's prescriptions in another post. 

 

(Note that, as of now, your claims:  Of me posting about Mom's prescription costs, you responding with "truth and facts", and me "disappearing", none have stood up.  In fact, it's been pointed out that all three claims are false.) 

 

But, let's look at the previous discussion which you've chosen to describe as me posting about mom's prescriptions, you responding with "truth and facts", and me "disappearing". 

 

The actual exchange is: 

 

1)  You make the claim:  [My emphasis]

 

And it's not the premiums I am rallying about, it's the deductibles and the out of pocket costs which wont be tax deductible for most.

 

2)  I ask the question: 

 

Anybody got any support for this claim I keep seeing, that health care expenses are no longer tax deductible?

 

(I intentionally didn't quote you, because I felt it would be less confrontational, and because I feel I've seen the claim made several times, previously, and didn't feel like going back and seeing if several people had made it, or if it was you, making the same claim multiple times.) 

 

3)  Your response:  (Again, my emphasis.)

 

Not sure I understand your question.  Health care expenses were never tax deductible with the exception of portions that exceeded a percentage of your income.  (Prior to H.S.A plans).

 

4)  Again, my response: 

 

Pointing out that there's a difference between "huge out of pocket expenses that aren't tax deductible" and "well, they have to exceed a portion of your income".

Speaking as someone who has filed tax returns for my parents, claiming like $80K a year in tax deductions because of medical expenses, for six years in a row, I'm pretty certain that if medical expenses weren't deductible, before, the IRS would have told me I couldn't do that.

 

5)  When I point out that you're moving the goalposts, your response is to make another claim: 

 

Also Larry, if you are deducting $80,000 on your parents return it's due to long term care, which is a totally different issue in the US.  If it's just for medical expenses, then your Medicare really isn't working.

 

6)  At which time, I point out that your third claim in the progression is incorrect, too.  And in two ways: 

 

The main expenses were dad's nursing home, and mom's prescriptions. (Everything else was covered by Medicare, and their supplemental).

(And long-term care is medical expenses).

 

7)  At which, you then respond that you didn't make that third claim, and proceed to make your fourth, fifth, and sixth: 

 

I didn't say it wasn't a medical expense.

It's nice being rich and being able to afford to get your 35% back of 85K for long term care isn't it.

 

Most "po folk" don't have that luxury and Medicare obviously failed your mom too.

 

Secondly, I made no claims.

 

 

Funny, I see several. 

 

The conversation was you posted a question asking about tax deductions, I responded basically I didn't know but assumed it was as it is today which is it has to be above a certain percent of your income to be tax deductible.

 

 

Funny, the reason you brought this conversation back up, was your description of is as me bringing up mom's prescriptions, you responding with "truths and facts", and I "disappeared". 

 

----------

 

But let's drop your attempt to rewrite ancient history, and stick to today.  In just the last couple of posts, you've gone from referring to this conversation as: 

 

You bailed out of that conversation as your facts supported my claims.

 

To: 

 

Secondly, I made no claims.  The conversation was you posted a question asking about tax deductions, I responded basically I didn't know but assumed it was as it is today which is it has to be above a certain percent of your income to be tax deductible.

 

Two hours to go from claiming I bailed because my facts supported your claim, to claiming that you made no claim, I asked a question and you answered.  

 

A dance and shift routine which you arrived at, probably eight hours and 20 posts after jumping in and attacking me out of the blue with an attempt to claim that I won't criticize the web sites.  (After I have already done so, multiple times.) 

 

I'm gonna click post, and leave for a while.  (Gotta listen to us get embarrassed for at least the first quarter.) 

[chipwhich]

1)  You make the claim:  [My emphasis]

 

chipwhich, on 11 Oct 2013 - 8:50 PM, said:

And it's not the premiums I am rallying about, it's the deductibles and the out of pocket costs which wont be tax deductible for most.

 

2)  I ask the question: 

 

Larry, on 11 Oct 2013 - 8:59 PM, said:

Anybody got any support for this claim I keep seeing, that health care expenses are no longer tax deductible?

 

First I didn't realize you were being antagonistic, I was assuming it was a legitimate question.  But let's address what I didn't say.  I didn't say that health care expenses are no longer tax deductible.  I said it's the deductibles and the out of pocket costs which wont be tax deductible for most.  Are you claiming your parent's situation is typical of most?  What I am referring to is the middle class and below and the out of pocket expenses on these high deductible plans which will not be tax deductible.  Just to clue you in, most Americans prior to Obamacare didn't get to partake in that tax break.

 

3)  Your response:  (Again, my emphasis.)

 

chipwhich, on 11 Oct 2013 - 9:19 PM, said:

Not sure I understand your question.  Health care expenses were never tax deductible with the exception of portions that exceeded a percentage of your income.  (Prior to H.S.A plans).

 

Again this is a true statement.  Health Care Premiums weren't previously tax deductible, what I ASSUMED your question was that considering under Obamacare people get a tax deduction on the premium was it true that the portion that exceeded your income would go away.  My bad for assuming as I misread your question and you misread my response....which was correct BTW.

 

Still looking for where I am delirious.

 

 

Larry, on 11 Oct 2013 - 9:37 PM, said:

Pointing out that there's a difference between "huge out of pocket expenses that aren't tax deductible" and "well, they have to exceed a portion of your income".

Speaking as someone who has filed tax returns for my parents, claiming like $80K a year in tax deductions because of medical expenses, for six years in a row, I'm pretty certain that if medical expenses weren't deductible, before, the IRS would have told me I couldn't do that.

 

Where did I ever say you couldn't due that.  Your response was nonsensical as I stated:  Health care expenses were never tax deductible with the exception of portions that exceeded a percentage of your income.  (Prior to H.S.A plans).

What portion of "with the exception of" did you not understand?  Again as you were being antagonistic you now are being intentionally obtuse to try and make me look like I said something I didn't.

 

6)  At which time, I point out that your third claim in the progression is incorrect, too.  And in two ways: 

 

Larry, on 11 Oct 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

The main expenses were dad's nursing home, and mom's prescriptions. (Everything else was covered by Medicare, and their supplemental).

(And long-term care is medical expenses).

 

7)  At which, you then respond that you didn't make that third claim, and proceed to make your fourth, fifth, and sixth: 

 

chipwhich, on 11 Oct 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

I didn't say it wasn't a medical expense.
It's nice being rich and being able to afford to get your 35% back of 85K for long term care isn't it.
 
Most "po folk" don't have that luxury and Medicare obviously failed your mom too.

 Long Term Care while a medical expense isn't covered by private insurance, or Obamacare so it really has nothing to do with the conversation.  I notice you ignored my response.

 

Just so you know what my "claim" is.  For the average person under Obamacare, High Deductibles and out of pocket expenses will not be tax deductible and will be a heavy burden on all of the lucky people who get to be insured.  Prescription drugs is the primary culprit.  Under Obamacare you will still get a tax deduction if you exceed the percentage of income as I pointed out to you..>AS FAR AS I KNOW.

 

Talk about twisting something I didn't say....live by what you preach.

All of my employees have high deductible plans, were it not for me paying the deductible, many of them couldn't afford to pay the out of pocket costs which are a result of these plans.  Under Obamacare they will continue to be the norm.

Enjoy your new world of health care for all.

[chipwhich]

Oh an sorry, but I don't know how to quote in the new tool other than a blank quote

 

 

 

[Larry]

Just so you know what my "claim" is. For the average person under Obamacare, High Deductibles and out of pocket expenses will not be tax deductible and will be a heavy burden on all of the lucky people who get to be insured. Prescription drugs is the primary culprit. Under Obamacare you will still get a tax deduction if you exceed the percentage of income as I pointed out to you..>AS FAR AS I KNOW.

Talk about twisting something I didn't say....live by what you preach.

All of my employees have high deductible plans, were it not for me paying the deductible, many of them couldn't afford to pay the out of pocket costs which are a result of these plans. Under Obamacare they will continue to be the norm.

Enjoy your new world of health care for all.

Ok, then. Let's talk about these claims. (I'm on the iPad, so it's tough to quote. I'll use quotation marks.)

"For the average person under Obamacare, High Deductibles and out of pocket expenses will not be tax deductible and will be a heavy burden on all of the lucky people who get to be insured."

Let's start with a simple one: this claim of "under Obamacare, High Deductibles and out of pocket expenses".

Can you create an imaginary person. Create any cherry picked scenario you want. (Just specify exactly which cherries you're picking).

And tell us,

1). What his medical expenses will be, with Obamacare.

2). What his medical expenses will be, without Obamacare.

An apples to apples comparison.

Tell us about these high expenses THAT ARE CAUSED BY OBAMACARE.

But, compare those high expenses against what that identical person would gave paid, without Obamacare. (Tell us what "without Obamacare" situation this person would have had).

[chipwhich]

Ok, then. Let's talk about these claims. (I'm on the iPad, so it's tough to quote. I'll use quotation marks.)

"For the average person under Obamacare, High Deductibles and out of pocket expenses will not be tax deductible and will be a heavy burden on all of the lucky people who get to be insured."

Let's start with a simple one: this claim of "under Obamacare, High Deductibles and out of pocket expenses".

Can you create an imaginary person. Create any cherry picked scenario you want. (Just specify exactly which cherries you're picking).

And tell us,

1). What his medical expenses will be, with Obamacare.

2). What his medical expenses will be, without Obamacare.

An apples to apples comparison.

Tell us about these high expenses THAT ARE CAUSED BY OBAMACARE.

But, compare those high expenses against what that identical person would gave paid, without Obamacare. (Tell us what "without Obamacare" situation this person would have had).

 

Well I hate to start it out by this, but it's appropriate.

 

 

The reason for high deductible policies is the American public uses health care when they have a runny nose.  High deductible health care was implemented to insure people go to the doctor when they need to not when they have a runny nose.  If you had kids and lived in yuppy America you would know what I refer too.

 

NO OTHER country goes to the doctor for a runny nose like Americans.

[PeterMP]

The reason for high deductible policies is the American public uses health care when they have a runny nose.  High deductible health care was implemented to insure people go to the doctor when they need to not when they have a runny nose.  If you had kids and lived in yuppy America you would know what I refer too.

 

NO OTHER country goes to the doctor for a runny nose like Americans.

 

I don't know anybody that counts doctors visits for runny noses, but if you look at all doctor visits, the US is actually pretty low compared to many other countries and is below OECD average:

 

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/health_glance-2011-en/04/01/g4-01-02.html?contentType=&itemId=/content/chapter/health_glance-2011-29-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/19991312&accessItemIds=/content/book/health_glance-2011-en&mimeType=text/html

 

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/health_glance-2011-en/04/01/g4-01-01.html?contentType=&itemId=/content/chapter/health_glance-2011-29-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/19991312&accessItemIds=/content/book/health_glance-2011-en&mimeType=text/html

 

The number of people that think they know facts that just aren't true, especially on this topic, is shocking.

[Larry]

Well I hate to start it out by this, but it's appropriate.

Actually, answering my question is appropriate.

Can you intentionally create a hypothetical in which these high out of pocket expenses, which you keep insisting are caused by Obamacare, and will be typical, are actually caused by Obamacare? One artificially constructed case in which someone pays thousands of dollars of medical costs, which he wouldn't have had to pay, before Obamacare?

[Gallen5862]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/28/obamacare-glitch-data_n_4168377.html

 

Obamacare Enrollment Halted By Verizon Data Center Crash

 

By David Morgan and Sharon Begley

WASHINGTON/NEW YORK, Oct 27 (Reuters) - A data center critical for allowing uninsured Americans to buy health coverage under President Barack Obama's healthcare law went down on Sunday, halting online enrollment for all 50 states in the latest problem to hit the program's troubled rollout.

The data center operated by Verizon's Terremark experienced a connectivity issue that caused it to shut down, affecting the federal government's already problem-plagued online marketplace Healthcare.gov and similar sites operated by 14 states and the District of Columbia, according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS).

Obama administration and company officials could not say how long it would take to fix the connectivity problem.

[chipwhich]

I don't know anybody that counts doctors visits for runny noses, but if you look at all doctor visits, the US is actually pretty low compared to many other countries and is below OECD average:

 

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/health_glance-2011-en/04/01/g4-01-02.html?contentType=&itemId=/content/chapter/health_glance-2011-29-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/19991312&accessItemIds=/content/book/health_glance-2011-en&mimeType=text/html

 

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/health_glance-2011-en/04/01/g4-01-01.html?contentType=&itemId=/content/chapter/health_glance-2011-29-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/19991312&accessItemIds=/content/book/health_glance-2011-en&mimeType=text/html

 

The number of people that think they know facts that just aren't true, especially on this topic, is shocking.

 

A runny nose isn't a wellness visit.  Yeah you can't run to the doctor all you want and get free.

 

Your chart is a meaningless statistic as it doesn't provide any details about coverage in each of those countries.

 

If you want to use the word shocking, at least understand your facts and how they apply.

[chipwhich]

Actually, answering my question is appropriate.

Can you intentionally create a hypothetical in which these high out of pocket expenses, which you keep insisting are caused by Obamacare, and will be typical, are actually caused by Obamacare? One artificially constructed case in which someone pays thousands of dollars of medical costs, which he wouldn't have had to pay, before Obamacare?

 

Reading comprehension is your friend.

 

I never said Obamacare caused high deductible insurance plans.  If you actually ready anything I wrote you would know that.  I said I have high deductible plans in my company (NOT Obamacare) and the lead to high out of pocket costs per employee.  Fortunately I pay my employees deductible so for them this isn't true.

 

The out of pocket costs are caused by high deductible plans, which BTW are the affordable plans in Obamacare.

 

High deductible insurance plans are insurance against catastrophe (which isn't happening to the average american) but provides little to no coverage as it's hard to meet the deductible unless you are highly prescribed in which you will have to pay the full deductible quickly.

[Larry]

Obamacare Enrollment Halted By Verizon Data Center Crash

Wouldn't want redundancy in the system, or anything.

[chipwhich]

Wouldn't want redundancy in the system, or anything.

 

Verizon Terremark is built around redundancy which is what makes the story so much more amusing.

[Corcaigh]

Verizon Terremark is built around redundancy which is what makes the story so much more amusing.

 

Well their marketing brochures are all about redundancy.

[pointyfootball]

Was watching CNN (I think?) a few nights ago and they had Howard Dean & Newt Gringrich on in a fairly amicable discussion about Obamacare and healthcare in general.  One issue Dean brought up was "we" should be paying doctors to keep people healthy, not paying them for tests.  Was curious if anyone knew what he meant about that, because he didn't really explain it.  IMO, people who live unhealthily are going to have more medical costs, and how do you make a doctor's paycheck dependent upon the willingness of a "stranger" to be healthier?

 

Serious discussion only, as I honestly am curious about this and don't understand how it would be possible.

[twa]

Was watching CNN (I think?) a few nights ago and they had Howard Dean & Newt Gringrich on in a fairly amicable discussion about Obamacare and healthcare in general.  One issue Dean brought up was "we" should be paying doctors to keep people healthy, not paying them for tests.  Was curious if anyone knew what he meant about that, because he didn't really explain it.  IMO, people who live unhealthily are going to have more medical costs, and how do you make a doctor's paycheck dependent upon the willingness of a "stranger" to be healthier?

 

Serious discussion only, as I honestly am curious about this and don't understand how it would be possible.

 

he probably was talking about the way ACA pays for inoculations, screening and exams(w/o deductible/co-pay) but does not pay for sick visits or your prescrips.

 

your living unhealthy is rather subject to interpretation and medical costs are more genetic based imo.....of course it matters if you look at lifetime vs short term

[Corcaigh]

 

One issue Dean brought up was "we" should be paying doctors to keep people healthy, not paying them for tests.  Was curious if anyone knew what he meant about that, because he didn't really explain it.  IMO, people who live unhealthily are going to have more medical costs, and how do you make a doctor's paycheck dependent upon the willingness of a "stranger" to be healthier?

 

Serious discussion only, as I honestly am curious about this and don't understand how it would be possible.

 

I think they are talking about having at least some payment based on outcomes. Today it is often driven entirely by activity. My former GP, who I've now fired, would insist on a follow-up visit from every visit even if there was nothing important to discuss, so that he could have a student or nurse tell me that and still charge the visit fee.

 

There's also something broken in a system where, in our families (anecdotal) experience, the US system's first step is to prescribe surgery or medication with no concern for cost (or side effects) when often lifestyle/dietary changes are a viable alternative. There is a belief that patients won't make changes and so drugs and/or the knife is the right approach.

 

It's a potentially dangerous conflict of interest where a health insurer might reward a doctor for not prescribing expensive treatments,   but if that cost saving is also passed onto the patient in the form of lower premiums it can have powerful impact. 

 

 

 

[Larry]

Reading comprehension is your friend.

 

I never said Obamacare caused high deductible insurance plans.  If you actually ready anything I wrote you would know that.  I said I have high deductible plans in my company (NOT Obamacare) and the lead to high out of pocket costs per employee.  Fortunately I pay my employees deductible so for them this isn't true.

 

The out of pocket costs are caused by high deductible plans, which BTW are the affordable plans in Obamacare.

 

High deductible insurance plans are insurance against catastrophe (which isn't happening to the average american) but provides little to no coverage as it's hard to meet the deductible unless you are highly prescribed in which you will have to pay the full deductible quickly.

Apologies for taking so long to get back to this. Been busy.

Funny, I could have sworn that you've been on a theme for what seems like at least a month, of attacking Obamacare because it's plans have a deductible. Trying to convince people that the correct way to judge Obamacare isn't the premiums, but to examine the maximum amount that people might spend. (Without mentioning the maximum amount that someone might spend, without Obamacare.) At least implying that this maximum amount is the amount that every person will spend, or that at least, it's typical.

But my question (which you still haven't answered) was a specific response to this post:

Just so you know what my "claim" is. For the average person under Obamacare, High Deductibles and out of pocket expenses will not be tax deductible and will be a heavy burden on all of the lucky people who get to be insured.

Looks a lot to me like a claim that the average person under Obamacare will be paying this deductible, and that it will be a heavy burden on every one of them.

And all I'm trying to do, is to get you to actually try talking about this hypothetical average person under Obamacare, and to contrast your opinion about what his position will be, under Obamacare, against some other scenario without Obamacare. (As opposed to talking about how terrible things will be, under Obamacare, and contrasting it against nothing.)

This hypothetical "average person under Obamacare", who's going to be crushed under his high deductible. What's his burden going to be, without Obamacare? What's his better alternative?

[Elessar78]

People who have had insurance and are forced by their company into the exchanges have a legit gripe about high deductibles. How many of those will there be? Not sure. People who could previously not get insured for any amount most likely would not be bothered by high deductibles (at least not as bothered as not getting medical care).

[skinsmarydu]

I said I have high deductible plans in my company (NOT Obamacare) and the lead to high out of pocket costs per employee.  Fortunately I pay my employees deductible so for them this isn't true.

Just so I'm not misunderstanding...are you really paying all of your employees' entire deductible every year?