The "War on Women"

[endzone_dave]

I like posting all the sides, but even in that one, the histogram does show that in real terms there are differences. Now, there are sometimes good reasons as to why, but there are also across the board trends which are really hard to argue away.

That article show a 1% - 4% difference in salaries for men and women in the same fields. I would have to believe some of that has to do with family responsibilities. A 1% - 2% difference in salaries still isn't fair but I wouldn't call that a "War on Women".

[-9-]

Mine does.

......She was more experienced, had a better resume, had been working at that institution (admittedly for only six months), worked the same number of hours, had the same responsibilities, and I'm being paid more money.

that is outrageous!....just assuming you did the right thing and reported this immediately to the EEOC.

having worked only for large corporations....apparently i have been insulated from these types of egregious acts..... as those companies truly bend over backwards to ensure equality and fair treatment for all regardless of race, gender, religion, etc. .....

i now stand corrected.

please provide updates on how the EEOC handles this case....thanks!

[Larry]

el superbeasto,

I once worked for a restaurant. (I won't mention the name of the chain, because it was a long time ago, and I don't want to label the entire chain based on what I observed, more than a decade ago, in one restaurant.)

With the exception of myself:

Every single person they had, who worked where the customers could see them (dining room, cashier, serving line) was a white female.

Every single person who worked in the kitchen, was a black or Hispanic male.

Every single person who was management, was a white male.

In your opinion, is this company discriminating?

[Teller]

I assume your ratings are identical too, Burg?

[Larry]

See, Burg, you aren't understanding the rules of the game.

You must find two people, where the two people, and their jobs, must be identical in every single way.

Otherwise, discrimination does not exist.

And, if you do manage to meet this standard, then your example will be dismissed as a freak outlier.

[Teller]

See, Burg, you aren't understanding the rules of the game.

You must find two people, where the two people, and their jobs, must be identical in every single way.

Otherwise, discrimination does not exist.

And, if you do manage to meet this standard, then your example will be dismissed as a freak outlier.

You're absolutely right. It's ridiculous to ask about ratings in broadcasting. How dare I. The utter nerve of some people.

[-9-]

With the exception of myself:

Every single person they had, who worked where the customers could see them (dining room, cashier, serving line) was a white female.

Every single person who worked in the kitchen, was a black or Hispanic male.

Every single person who was management, was a white male.

In your opinion, is this company discriminating?

had any of the wait staff or kitchen crew been denied the opportunity for advancement/employment because of his/her race gender?

or blatantly discriminated against based on gender as in burgolds' example?

[Larry]

had any of the wait staff or kitchen crew been denied the opportunity for advancement/employment because of his/her race gender?

or blatantly discriminated against based on gender as in burgolds' example?

I take it that's a "no"?

"Well, maybe I'll admit that they're discriminating, if there's more evidence than just 100% racial and gender hiring patterns"?

[twa]

I assume your ratings are identical too, Burg?

I put in a good word for him and now men are beasts.......no good deed goes unpunished

I have never understood this equal bs to the degree they wish....some of us are just worth more

[Burgold]

I assume your ratings are identical too, Burg?

I think that's a reasonable question. I dont know the answer. My ego says I am better and produce higher quality stuff, but there's a level osinjectivity there. How they rated us or if there are metrics that looked at how people responded to us I don't know. However, it seems to me that the offers weren't fair

[-9-]

larry,

to put myself through college i loaded tractor trailers for ups. less than 5% of the loaders were female.

in your opinion....was ups discriminating?

[Teller]

I think that's a reasonable question. I dont know the answer. My ego says I am better and produce higher quality stuff, but there's a level osinjectivity there. How they rated us or if there are metrics that looked at how people responded to us I don't know. However, it seems to me that the offers weren't fair

You've earned me taking your word for that.

[Larry]

larry,

to put myself through college i loaded tractor trailers for ups. less than 5% of the loaders were female.

in your opinion....was ups discriminating?

You haven't answered my question.

Edit: Yeah, actually, I think you have answered it. Your attempt to demand more proof was an answer.

Sure, there are situations where gender differences in employment are justified.

There's a reason there aren't any female RBs in the NFL. And it isn't discrimination.

However, there is no reason why males can't do the job of being a cashier, or fetching drinks for people. And, while working in a commercial kitchen does involve some use of heavy lifting and things, it's certainly not true that no female can do that job, either.

Nor is there any reason why the restaurant's management jobs could not have been performed by anybody except white males.

----------

But now that I've responded to your question (instead of trying to evade it, like you did with mine), it's my turn again:

Does this mean that it's possible for there to be discrimination in employment and in pay, (in fact, very blatant discrimination in employment and in pay), even though there is not one single case of men and women (or blacks and whites) working identical jobs for different pay?

(For example, if there's not one single case of men and women even being allowed to have identical jobs?)

[-9-]

Does this mean that it's possible for there to be discrimination in employment and in pay, (in fact, very blatant discrimination in employment and in pay), even though there is not one single case of men and women (or blacks and whites) working identical jobs for different pay?

as acknowledged in burgolds' current discrimination situation.....obviously not.

but to assign %'s of income as an argument for "equal pay for equal work" .....without true and actual- apples to apples- numbers as a base..... is intentionally misleading and agenda driven.

do you agree?

[Larry]

as acknowledged in burgolds' current discrimination situation.....obviously not.

but to assign %'s of income as an argument for "equal pay for equal work" .....without true and actual- apples to apples- numbers as a base..... is intentionally misleading and agenda driven.

do you agree?

Not even close.

In my opinion, very tiny percentage of discrimination cases involve identical people working the identical job for identical companies. The vast majority of discrimination takes the form of people of group X simply not being hired for Job Y, in the first place.

If every single CEO in America makes an identical salary, but 98% of CEOs are white males, that doesn't prove that discrimination doesn't exist. It proves that it does.

----------

Now, no, that doesn't mean that all of the fact that the average woman earns less than the average man.

There are lots of factors that go into how much money the average woman makes. And some, maybe most, of them are factors which are under the woman's control, and/or which have strictly non-discrimination basis.

If, for example, more women go into teaching than other professions, and if teacher's pay sucks, then this would tend to drag down the pay of the average woman.

(Although I'll point out that if most teachers are women, and teacher's pay sucks, then this could be discrimination, too.)

[endzone_dave]

25 years ago my engineering classes in college comprised only about 10% women. I spent time in engineering meetings over the last few weeks which had about 10% women in them. Was that discrimination? The people who brought in the bagels and coffee in the morning for those meetings were all women. Was that discrimination?

[LadySkinsFan]

thank you for the links to all the studies....

.....but still waiting on just one real-life example of an actual company today paying/starting women at a lower rate then men for the exact same job. just one.

One company where I worked in the 90s was merging groups and I was making $45K and one of the men in the other group was making $78K, and I was expected to do the exact same work as the man.

Even now, as a consultant, I have to charge a lesser rate to get work than a man does, and I'm probably a better proposal manager than most of my collegues, having brought in billions in business for the companies I consult for. I did up my rates about 10 years ago to make more money, but I still don't command the same rate. This is through agencies. When I go direct, I can command a higher rate, but it's still not the same as a man's. Companies will pay a man more just because he's a man.

[Teller]

(Although I'll point out that if most teachers are women, and teacher's pay sucks, then this could be discrimination, too.)

It could be. But I think in most areas, teachers are paid a fairly comfortable living wage. And I think that having the same schedule as their children makes it more attractive too.

[-9-]

The vast majority of discrimination takes the form of people of group X simply not being hired for Job Y, in the first place.

since the prior mentioned, actual, true-life occurence of work-place discrimination has been discussed and documented.....

do you agree that burgolds company.....that overtly discriminated against the better candidate because she is a woman....should be reported to to EEOC?

[Larry]

It could be. But I think in most areas, teachers are paid a fairly comfortable living wage. And I think that having the same schedule as their children makes it more attractive too.

Want to compare teacher's pay to that of the average person with a four year degree?

But you do have a point. The way I express it is that teachers get less money, because that's the market.

Teachers don't get more money, because they don't have to pay more to attract people. People are willing to take less pay for that job, so why should the market pay them more.

The market doesn't care about "fair". The market cares about "how much do I have to pay?"

(I suspect that we can agree that there are other professions where I think people deserve more pay, but they're willing to take the job for less. I would point at police officers. They probably deserve more money, but people are willing to take less money, just because they want that particular job.)

One of the waitresses who waits on us is a single Mom, (of a almost-two year old), who's going to college. She recently changed her major from Nursing to Teaching. She's fully aware that she's going to make a lot less money. But, she'll be home with her kid for Thanksgiving and Christmas and spring break and President's day.

Part of the lower pay for women, is because women voluntarily and knowingly chose that option.

[LadySkinsFan]

And the EEOC will do what, exactly? They don't do much really. I had a friend file a report where at a medical school only those women (2) PhD who were married to MDs were given tenure. ALL of the rest of the women were not given tenure and most of the men were, except for 1 man who was a major ****up. Her case went no where.

[-9-]

[

Companies will pay a man more just because he's a man.

one of my best friends....with advanced degrees.....is in pharmaceutical sales.....and earns a fraction of some less qualified sales women on his team.

is this discrimination?.....or because he's a man?

or maybe he is not as good at his job as those women are?

[Larry]

since the prior mentioned, actual, true-life occurence of work-place discrimination has been discussed and documented.....

do you agree that burgolds company.....that overtly discriminated against the better candidate because she is a woman....should be reported to to EEOC?

Don't know.

Discrimination is really tough to prove.

Specifically because there is no such thing as two identical people. There will always be something that the employer can point at and say "Oh, that decision wasn't because of discrimination. It was because her phone number ended in a "3", and I don't like the number 3", or some such.

(It may even be true. Maybe Burg got more money simply because the employer had more money in the budget on the day he was hired. Or because the person making the decision won the office football pool that day. Or because Burg was a Redskins fan, and so was the boss.)

[-9-]

And the EEOC will do what, exactly?

just to be clear....you're advocating for nothing to be done for this poor woman whose rights have been violated through an admitted and overt case of employment discrimination?

in this day of social media and 24 hour news cycles?

nothing for her?

---------- Post added May-15th-2012 at 12:07 PM ----------

Discrimination is really tough to prove.

probably exponentially less so if it was brought forward by an inside whistleblower.

[Teller]

(I suspect that we can agree that there are other professions where I think people deserve more pay, but they're willing to take the job for less. I would point at police officers. They probably deserve more money, but people are willing to take less money, just because they want that particular job.)

I definitely agree with that. Fire fighters too, no doubt. Why pay someone when they'll volunteer?

Sometimes I feel like our priorities are a little screwed up. We'll let a guy (or gal) risk his or her life for free, but we'll pay a guy $200 million over the life of a contract to hit a ball with a stick. But as long as that's what the market bears, that's where the respective salaries will stay.

Part of the lower pay for women, is because women voluntarily and knowingly chose that option.

Yeah, my ex is one of them. (Anecdote warning) She was offered a position as a pharmaceutical rep (as lots of hot blondes are. ) She would have doubled her salary. But she chose to remain in education for the schedule, and to have more time with our girls. She's not struggling by any stretch, but that's just another example of self-limiting of one's salary.

She'd tell you that she's "paid back" multifold for her decision, and I respect her views on the "value" of things greatly.

There's no question that personal choice, and work climate play a factor in the wage discrepancy. It's probably best for both of us to leave it there.