should Orakpo and Kerrigan swap sides?

[thecardiacrll]

No I think you put your big hat on a big hat so to speak. You want your most skilled pass rusher to match up with their most skilled pass protector. If he wins that matchup with their LT, then you're golden on defense for that day because you're going to disrupt their entire gameplan on offense. You make your lesser rushers more effective because the offense has to start sliding protections and extra help over to the blindside. Your other rushers end up with favorable matchups and they get pressure themselves.

The goal is to get as many defenders to the QB as prudent and possible every passing play. That's best achieved by the big hat on big hat approach IMO. It works for the Steelers and Colts in the past and its working for us right now.

The net effectiveness of our pass rush would be worse if you put Orakpo on a worse edge protector only to move Kerrigan to a matchup that's unfavorable for him. You get less total pressure that way. Orakpo and Kerrigan are winning their individual battles at a highly productive clip positioned where they are right now.

Don't fix it if it ain't broke.

Swapping your best passrusher over to the left side of the defense because he's been rendered ineffective by the opposing LT is an admission of defeat to me. It's nice to change things up every so often to befuddle the offense and force them to adjust their matchups. But doing so heavily after the half like the Cowboys have done with Ware against us is a signal that your stud rusher has lost his individual battle against the LT and is a mismatch.

RE: blindside pressure vs. pressure from the QB's handed side, it's better and more dangerous when a QB can't see the pressure coming because then he can't avoid it as easily. The biggest plays tend to come when a QB is unaware of the pressure.

---------- Post added December-20th-2011 at 09:32 AM ----------

I think the Cowboys do that mainly when Ware isn't getting effective pressure on the left side--not to keep the offense off balance.

I think flipping your formations often eventually starts selling your playcall and makes it easier to key on.

It can also disrupt the rhythm of a really good end/OLB.

It takes a long time to effectively set up moves, soften the edge, and assert your will over an opposing OL. Constantly moving around makes it harder for you to do those things.

And flipping your formations could be really tough on your linebackers and ends on running plays.

Diversity and versatility is good to a point because it's always nice to confuse the offense. But you have to keep it in check. At it's core, I think the best approach when you have two great pass rushing linebackers like we do is to just go out and let them beat up opposing tackles--just let them win their matchups because they can do it to almost every team. Enjoy the ride, life is good. We went to so much trouble to get two great OLBs so that we could run these powerful symmetrical formations that become very tough to read just like the Steelers have had the past few seasons. Let's use that advantage to the fullest.

I agree for the most part what you are saying. Im more talking about every once in a while on passing situations like 3rd and long. You cant tell me that if a linemen is going up against orakpo all day and finally is getting grasp of his speed and power, a quick switch to Kerrigan on a 3rd and long would have his head spinning. I dont mean switch it up every other play I mean in key situations just to make the opposing teams O-line think.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

So...wait...we have left side and right side and not strong side and weak side?

Because that seems dumb.

[Going Commando]

So...wait...we have left side and right side and not strong side and weak side?

Because that seems dumb.

Not specific enough. If you're like Orakpo, both your right and your left sides are your strong side.

[LiveStrongSkins]

1) There are more than enough threads about our LB's for you to ask this question

2) You base your assumption that Kerrigan is more athletic on statistics which makes no sense

3) Your belief is that Kerrigan, a rookie, will be more productive going against Left Tackles, aka the guys who are typically the best linemen on the team

4) Orakpo's arsenal is limited? I beg to differ, I've seen him beat guys inside, outside, bull rush, spin move, stutter step one way and beat them to the other. Much of the time it is simply willpower and Kerrigan/Orakpo are both extremely high motor guys.

And at this point, I really don't care if you're complaining. It's not a personal thing against you. It's the fact that so many ignorant people (again, I'm not talking about you, necessarily) continue to complain/make threads about "Orakpo isn't this, he isn't that, we should trade him, he's not worthy of #13 overall, he's not yet reached the level of DeMarcus Ware aka a HOF'er, etc."

Time and again others as well as myself have apparently wasted our time proving them wrong only to have them not only ignore everything we say because apparently we should trade one of our best players because that is so easily replaced, but also to have other posters routinely start new threads stating or implying Orakpo is inadequate. Why is Clay Matthews playing from the same side as Kerrigan? Why does Kerrigan play that side? Pretty sure Kerrigan played from that damn side in college too. It's WORKING. It is where they are most comfortable playing and our coordinator is doing a good job mixing up where they come from. All of these accusations or implications or whatever you want to call them are completely ridiculous and I will never understand them.

People constantly ****ed and moaned when we had ZERO pass rush just a few years ago. We draft young stud pass-rushers who have not only proved themselves but allowed others to make plays as well, our pass-rush is now among the best in the league despite usually playing from behind, and people STILL are not satisfied. Unbelievable.

It took more energy and time to write a four paragraph rebuttal, then it did to not pay it any attention. Theres thousands of people on this site, not every person is going to find where something else is discussed to determine whether or not their point fits amongsth threads with hundreds of posts. I actually disagree with your points about Orakpo. He is an effective pass rusher, but very limited. There is a reason he has just now tallied his first sack in the division. He relies mainly on an above average bull rush and this allows him to get the edge on lineman on occasion. Not until he develops more of an arsenal to set up offensive lineman will he become an elite pass rusher. Furthermore, I personally think Rak should spend his whole career as a skin. He embodies the type of player a franchise should build around. If he wants to be an elite pass rusher, he needs to be more of a force in the division.

[justice98]

Orakpo has never been a left side rusher and Kerrigan has always been a left side rusher. Leave them where they are.

[moondog]

I agree for the most part what you are saying. Im more talking about every once in a while on passing situations like 3rd and long. You cant tell me that if a linemen is going up against orakpo all day and finally is getting grasp of his speed and power, a quick switch to Kerrigan on a 3rd and long would have his head spinning. I dont mean switch it up every other play I mean in key situations just to make the opposing teams O-line think.

Which is exactly what we have been doing. Orakpo and Kerrigan switch sides or blitz from the same side several times per game for this exact reason - to throw off the opposing offensive linemen. Orakpo also routinely is blitzed inside of Bowen or "stunted/twisted" with him to free up Bowen for the exact same effect, which has helped more then double Bowen's career sack total.

Aside from the original post, but to address other posts in this thread:

Orakpo is not a limited pass-rusher. Anyone watching Aldon Smith last night can see he plays an almost identical game to Orakpo. His sacks last night came on a bull-rush in which he pushed the linemen back, it took him a while to disengage but Roethlisburger couldn't find anyone so Smith was finally able to disengage and get to him. His other 1.5 sacks came on stunts in which he was barely touched, if at all. Again, oftentimes sack totals come from routinely playing with a marginal lead in the 4th quarter when defenders can pin their ears back and go. Orakpo has rarely seen this opportunity but when he does, he's always come up huge.

People can say what they want about sacks in NFC East games - yes, he needs to improve on sacks. But do not forget the Cowboys game that Orakpo and DHall won on their own - DHall's strip/recovery TD and Orakpo's man was called for at least 3, if not 4 holds in that game including the one that ended the game in which he clearly was going to sack Romo sits to pee from behind. On Sunday, Orakpo was clearly held in a similar situation that negated a TD, recovers a fumble that was negated by a play called dead, and got to Eli at the end of the game. I understand people complaining about sacks, but anyone who thinks he has not had a great impact on NFC East games routinely is wrong.

[Laxpunk2006]

Rak and Kerrigan do switch sides. It's not every play but they do it.

[NAC386]

Kerrigan and Orakpo are both good pass rushers and should be moved around to rush from different places and from different angles at times. It is much harder for offensive linemen to game plan for 2 different rushers I'm sure.

*Like others are saying, I'm pretty sure they do this fairly often.

[Skinsfan4life83]

[/Quote]

People constantly ****ed and moaned when we had ZERO pass rush just a few years ago. We draft young stud pass-rushers who have not only proved themselves but allowed others to make plays as well, our pass-rush is now among the best in the league despite usually playing from behind, and people STILL are not satisfied. Unbelievable.

Truest statement ever in the history of extremeskins.

[LiveStrongSkins]

Which is exactly what we have been doing. Orakpo and Kerrigan switch sides or blitz from the same side several times per game for this exact reason - to throw off the opposing offensive linemen. Orakpo also routinely is blitzed inside of Bowen or "stunted/twisted" with him to free up Bowen for the exact same effect, which has helped more then double Bowen's career sack total.

Aside from the original post, but to address other posts in this thread:

Orakpo is not a limited pass-rusher. Anyone watching Aldon Smith last night can see he plays an almost identical game to Orakpo. His sacks last night came on a bull-rush in which he pushed the linemen back, it took him a while to disengage but Roethlisburger couldn't find anyone so Smith was finally able to disengage and get to him. His other 1.5 sacks came on stunts in which he was barely touched, if at all. Again, oftentimes sack totals come from routinely playing with a marginal lead in the 4th quarter when defenders can pin their ears back and go. Orakpo has rarely seen this opportunity but when he does, he's always come up huge.

People can say what they want about sacks in NFC East games - yes, he needs to improve on sacks. But do not forget the Cowboys game that Orakpo and DHall won on their own - DHall's strip/recovery TD and Orakpo's man was called for at least 3, if not 4 holds in that game including the one that ended the game in which he clearly was going to sack Romo sits to pee from behind. On Sunday, Orakpo was clearly held in a similar situation that negated a TD, recovers a fumble that was negated by a play called dead, and got to Eli at the end of the game. I understand people complaining about sacks, but anyone who thinks he has not had a great impact on NFC East games routinely is wrong.

Orakpo is a VERY limited pass rusher. You are confusing the meaning by what people mean when they say limited. Its not saying he isnt a great talent. He produces doing what he does best which is alternating between an effective bull rush and speed rush. He's limited in terms of changing his approach when an offensive lineman is able to take away his strength. Aldon Smith uses his hands, has a counter spin as well as a rip move. His array of pass rushing moves was actually what caused SF to jump on him when not alot of people were that high on him. Orakpo gets his sacks because of how he is able to keep some left tackles off balance with a bull rush. He has not figured out how to use his hands, nor use a counter move. He gets buy on his speed and strength not his variety. When he does learn over time how to do those things, thats when he will go from the 10-12 range to the elite sack totals of guys like Ware and Allen. He is effective but limitied, I dont know what games you are watching. He has one NFC east sack in 3 seasons, he has a ton of room to grow

[moondog]

Orakpo is a VERY limited pass rusher. Aldon Smith uses his hands, has a counter spin as well as a rip move. His array of pass rushing moves was actually what caused SF to jump on him when not alot of people were that high on him. Orakpo gets his sacks because of how he is able to keep some left tackles off balance with a bull rush. He has not figured out how to use his hands, nor use a counter move. He gets buy on his speed and strength not his variety. When he does learn over time how to do those things, thats when he will go from the 10-12 range to the elite sack totals of guys like Ware and Allen. He is effective but limitied, I dont know what games you are watching. He has one NFC east sack in 3 seasons, he has a ton of room to grow

What 3rd year player doesn't still have a ton of room to grow? Of course Orakpo can get much better. He has vastly improved in his coverage and run defense this year. It's getting old, people saying the only move has is a bull rush. What I saw from Aldon Smith last night was repeated bull rushes and an occasional stunt where he was unblocked. He was going against Max Starks who Orakpo also blew up in the preseason a few years ago as a rookie and that was when Starks wasn't a guy who got called up off the streets because their other guy was so bad.

What games am I watching? I KNOW that I clearly stated what NFC East games I've watched that he was directly involved in. I also admitted that he does need to rack up more sacks in the division. But you are asking for improvement - I give you the man that (in order):

1) Knocked down as pass at the LOS

2) Negated a TD because he was held on a play he likely would have had the sack (which lead to...)

3) 4th & Goal - a play in which Orakpo got excellent inside pressure, forcing Eli back and out of the pocket and right into Kerrigan who forced a fumble which ORAKPO RECOVERED, but was called dead - it was the wrong call and we didn't challenge because it was our ball anyway

4) Sacked Eli at the end of the game to notch an NFC East sack

So, in one NFC East game, you have three great plays, two of which put the nail in the coffin (2 & 3) to ensure NY could not come back. I have not missed a game in several years, your opinion is your opinion, but I see Orakpo as a pass rusher who knows his strengths are his strength and speed combination and leans on them but is not limited to them. Much like Freeney relies heavily on his spin move but is more than capable of getting to the QB in other ways. Orakpo has shown a variety of ways to get to the QB - I watch him almost every play on defense, but he does rely on his bread and butter. I have no reason to believe a guy who has greatly improved in non-pass rushing areas this year and has started to broaden his pass-rush game will not continue to improve along a huge curve.

Aldon Smith almost exclusively plays on pass-rushing downs and has ONE responsibility: get to the QB. He also plays almost exclusively with his hand in the dirt. Orakpo has never gotten that opportunity his entire career. He has played the majority of his snaps standing up and with run responsibilities as well. Smith also plays on a team that routinely has 4th quarter leads and can put him in situations where all he needs to do is get to the QB. Orakpo started every game his rookie year and played as a 4-3 OLB who saw less than a third of his snaps with his hand in the dirt rushing the passer and still registered 11 sacks. To me, Smith appears on paper and VERY much looks like Orakpo according to the eyeball test when he was a rookie.

[Skins Wingman]

i dont think ive ever seen them line up differently in a game. if they have, i dont know if its working because all kerrigans sacks come from the left side and all of orakpos come from the right. maybe moving them around helps the tackles get more pressure/sacks, and takes the focus off the fact that they were lined up differently, i dont know. but i think they need to stay on their respected sides. in a few years if they continue to grow, can you imagine how beastly our pass rush will be?

[LiveStrongSkins]

What 3rd year player doesn't still have a ton of room to grow? Of course Orakpo can get much better. He has vastly improved in his coverage and run defense this year. It's getting old, people saying the only move has is a bull rush. What I saw from Aldon Smith last night was repeated bull rushes and an occasional stunt where he was unblocked. He was going against Max Starks who Orakpo also blew up in the preseason a few years ago as a rookie and that was when Starks wasn't a guy who got called up off the streets because their other guy was so bad.

What games am I watching? I KNOW that I clearly stated what NFC East games I've watched that he was directly involved in. I also admitted that he does need to rack up more sacks in the division. But you are asking for improvement - I give you the man that (in order):

1) Knocked down as pass at the LOS

2) Negated a TD because he was held on a play he likely would have had the sack (which lead to...)

3) 4th & Goal - a play in which Orakpo got excellent inside pressure, forcing Eli back and out of the pocket and right into Kerrigan who forced a fumble which ORAKPO RECOVERED, but was called dead - it was the wrong call and we didn't challenge because it was our ball anyway

4) Sacked Eli at the end of the game to notch an NFC East sack

So, in one NFC East game, you have three great plays, two of which put the nail in the coffin (2 & 3) to ensure NY could not come back. I have not missed a game in several years, your opinion is your opinion, but I see Orakpo as a pass rusher who knows his strengths are his strength and speed combination and leans on them but is not limited to them. Much like Freeney relies heavily on his spin move but is more than capable of getting to the QB in other ways. Orakpo has shown a variety of ways to get to the QB - I watch him almost every play on defense, but he does rely on his bread and butter. I have no reason to believe a guy who has greatly improved in non-pass rushing areas this year and has started to broaden his pass-rush game will not continue to improve along a huge curve.

Aldon Smith almost exclusively plays on pass-rushing downs and has ONE responsibility: get to the QB. He also plays almost exclusively with his hand in the dirt. Orakpo has never gotten that opportunity his entire career. He has played the majority of his snaps standing up and with run responsibilities as well. Smith also plays on a team that routinely has 4th quarter leads and can put him in situations where all he needs to do is get to the QB. Orakpo started every game his rookie year and played as a 4-3 OLB who saw less than a third of his snaps with his hand in the dirt rushing the passer and still registered 11 sacks. To me, Smith appears on paper and VERY much looks like Orakpo according to the eyeball test when he was a rookie.

I think you are confusing my point. I agree with you on how well rounded Orakpo is. He does make big plays and is growing into a pretty damn good linebacker. Where we disagree is where Orakpo is as a pass rusher. You think he isnt limited, I think he is. The truth may be somewhere in the middle I just expect more from his skill set. With his strength and agility, I think he should consistently be in the top 5 in sacks. I dont know if its coaching, his tendency to revert to what he knows best or what but he should be maxing out at 15-18 instead of 9-12 in my opinion. I think if he develops more of a counter move, some of those holding flags will turn to sacks.

[Koala]

Everyone in this thread has focused on their pass-rushing, but what if we look at things from the perspective of run-defense? Does that change things?

IMO, Kerrigan does a better job of shutting down the run, largely because he strikes me as a more disciplned pass-rusher, allowing him to rush the pass witbhout exposing a wide open running lane. Rak is good in pass coverage, great as a pass rusher, but pretty average as a run-stopper. I think that Orakpo's tendency to rely on the outside move on the pass rush hurts him as a run-stopper.

If true that Kerrigan is a better run-stopper, then they should probably stay where they are. The LT tends to be the best pass-blcoker on the team, and the RT tends to be its best run-blocker, as a result most teams are "right-handed" when it comes to running the ball.

But there will be (many) times that the LT is also a great run-blcoker, in which case I think you let Kerrigan line up over the LT. However, in a 3/4 scheme, the distinction between weakside and strongside OLB is not as big as it is in a 4-3, so this is probably not as big a deal as youd think.

[fifthorkid88]

Not necessary. If you have been watching the games closely this year, you will see that they both play either side and sometimes line-up together. The actually switch quite a bit during the games.

[joeknows]

Everyone in this thread has focused on their pass-rushing, but what if we look at things from the perspective of run-defense? Does that change things?

IMO, Kerrigan does a better job of shutting down the run, largely because he strikes me as a more disciplned pass-rusher, allowing him to rush the pass witbhout exposing a wide open running lane. Rak is good in pass coverage, great as a pass rusher, but pretty average as a run-stopper. I think that Orakpo's tendency to rely on the outside move on the pass rush hurts him as a run-stopper.

If true that Kerrigan is a better run-stopper, then they should probably stay where they are. The LT tends to be the best pass-blcoker on the team, and the RT tends to be its best run-blocker, as a result most teams are "right-handed" when it comes to running the ball.

But there will be (many) times that the LT is also a great run-blcoker, in which case I think you let Kerrigan line up over the LT. However, in a 3/4 scheme, the distinction between weakside and strongside OLB is not as big as it is in a 4-3, so this is probably not as big a deal as youd think.

first off i would like to thank everyone who has offered an insightful opinion on the matter.

admittedly i am weak in my full understanding of the nuances of a 3/4 defense, so i tend to think in terms of a 4/3.

[moondog]

I think you are confusing my point. I agree with you on how well rounded Orakpo is. He does make big plays and is growing into a pretty damn good linebacker. Where we disagree is where Orakpo is as a pass rusher. You think he isnt limited, I think he is. The truth may be somewhere in the middle I just expect more from his skill set. With his strength and agility, I think he should consistently be in the top 5 in sacks. I dont know if its coaching, his tendency to revert to what he knows best or what but he should be maxing out at 15-18 instead of 9-12 in my opinion. I think if he develops more of a counter move, some of those holding flags will turn to sacks.

Honestly, I strongly feel it has to do with opportunities. And I don't mean how many times does a guy rush the passer on a passing play. I mean how often does a good pass rusher play on a team that frequently has a 10 point or more lead in the fourth quarter. This is when pass rushers/coordinators know the other team has to pass and they can sell out rushing. Most of the league's best pass-rushers play on teams that frequently play under these circumstances. New York has one of the best pass-rushing defenses in the league, we held them to one sack on Sunday and that was on a play where JPP was unblocked (for whatever reason) because we were playing with a big lead all day and forced them to play the run the whole game.

The best example I can think of is the Colts' edge rushers, Mathis and Freeney. They have 66 combines sacks in the last 3 years, good for 22 per year between them. This year, finally playing on a terrible offensive team that rarely has a lead, they have 14 combine sacks with 2 games to go. Of those 14 sacks, 10 of them have come either in their one game or in games that were decided by 8 points or less. 15 of Jason Babin's 18 sacks have come in games that the Eagles won or lost by 4 points or less. That seems pretty telling to me.

It's not a rule, as there are guys out there like Jared Allen and Chris Long that play on awful teams but still have racked up a good amount of sacks. But even they have a strong majority of their sacks in closer games/wins.

As I have said, I do not see Orakpo in that "elite" group. I reserve that for only Allen and Ware right now. In my opinion, elite equals a debatable HOF'er. But I think Orakpo is on the level of guys like Freeney and Mathis, which is to say I think he's about as good as it gets without being in that "elite" level.

From 2001-2010, there were only 2 years where 5 players had 13.5+ sacks. In other words, 80% of the time, 13 sacks at least ties you for 5th most sacks in the league. The sack leader typically comes back down the following year and is back around the 10-12 mark which is still exceptional any time you're talking about consistently getting to double digits each year.

These stats are just food for thought for those not sold on Orakpo - this year is crazy in terms of the number of guys at or above 13 sacks, it is the exception to the normal year. But my response is mainly that I believe your question about Orakpo has not gotten near 15 sacks yet has more to do with the team he plays on and that he doesn't get those situations where he can rack up several sacks in one game, which believe me is absolutely essential to getting near 15. Games like the Raiders game where he had 4 or Rams where he had 2.5 people actually tend to complain about Orakpo or take away from. The fact is, guys that get near 15 sacks in a year often tear apart weaker teams like that and rack up the easy ones on poor teams when they play ahead.

I am positive that if we can strongly improve the offense this offseason as we did last year with the defense, you will see Orakpo's sack numbers jump up. I'm not sure he will hit crazy numbers because there are several other guys on this defense that will inevitably steal some sacks from him. But my answer is that his sack numbers are strongly tied to having the opportunity to play with a lead, especially in the 4th quarter.