authentic Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 They still didn't make the playoffs that year either with that 11-5 record. No but it shows how important a Franchise QB like Peyton. I think it shows that they took a bigtime gamble for the past 4-5 years, assuming that Peyton would always be healthy. Thus there's no use in investing into a stout defense, or a viable backup, in the event that Peyton can't go. Whats going on now is the prime example of taking a good thing for granted. And its all finally caught up with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 About 80% of fans and media are on the Almighty Quarterback Bandwagon.Bill Walsh obviously wasn't. He didn't give Steve Young the lion's share of the blame for the Tampa Bay Bucs 3-16 record with Young at QB. Mike Shanahan didn't put the Cardinals misfortunes all on Plummer. I could cite other experts who don't overvalue the position. plummer sucked, sorry. he threw over 20 TDs once and his completion percentage was under 60% for the majority of his career, and in the modern NFL, thats not good. and steve young played one full season in tampa, and then sat behind joe montana for about 5 years. and clearly he was a talent, he was drafted 1st overall by tampa, so despite his one bad season in tampa (which is all you have to stand on is 14 games for a miserable franchise) he was pretty good after that as a backup and a HOF as a starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 ...They still won, and made it to the playoffs when it comes down to it thats all that matters.It's not all that matter. What matters is that the 11 INTs in three games is proof the the QB can't do it all himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botched Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Which games are you talking about man?The three game mid-season losing stretch to the Pats, Chargers and Cowgirls? Hail. Yeah, it must be those ones. Because while an 0-8 start this year proves nothing, that 3-game stretch in an otherwise impressive season tells us all we need to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themurf Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 True, but your chances for finding stud players drop significantly with each round, with the biggest drop off from 1st to 2nd round. Sorry man, I couldn't disagree with you more. I just posted a feature on newly-acquired RB Tashard Choice on my website this morning, and while doing research for it I went back and looked at the 2008 NFL Draft. Here are the Pro Bowl players who were selected in the second round or later that year: DeSean Jackson, Ray Rice, Jamaal Charles and Carl Nicks. Here are a few of the other productive players teams landed after the first round: Jordy Nelson, Matt Forte, Jermichael Finley, Mario Manningham and Peyton Hillis. The Redskins alone have Tashard Choice, Ryan Torain, Tim Hightower, Kory Lichtensteiger and Fred Davis from after the first round of the '08 draft, so I think it's safe to say that solid and reliable players can be acquired without the use of a first-round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointyfootball Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 What you can't find gems in the second round of the draft? You can, but your chances if finding a starter are cut in half when you go from first to second round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 It's not all that matter. What matters is that the 11 INTs in three games is proof the the QB can't do it all himself. or that a QB had a bad 3 game stretch against some good teams? guys arent perfect, they have bad games. this is a putrid argument youre trying to make with a tiny sample size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 plummer sucked, sorry. he threw over 20 TDs once and his completion percentage was under 60% for the majority of his career, and in the modern NFL, thats not good.and steve young played one full season in tampa, and then sat behind joe montana for about 5 years. and clearly he was a talent, he was drafted 1st overall by tampa, so despite his one bad season in tampa (which is all you have to stand on is 14 games for a miserable franchise) he was pretty good after that as a backup and a HOF as a starter. You missed the point... which was that Walsh and Shanahan must have realized that the QB position isn't all you need to know about football. Young and Plummer looked like losers with their previous teams. Walsh gave up a couple of mid-round draft picks for Young. Plummer was obtained as a free agent by Shanahan. Shanny's record with Plummer at QB was 39-15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbsisgod2006 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I think it shows that they took a bigtime gamble for the past 4-5 years, assuming that Peyton would always be healthy. Thus there's no use in investing into a stout defense, or a viable backup, in the event that Peyton can't go. Whats going on now is the prime example of taking a good thing for granted. And its all finally caught up with them. True they should have invested in a QB a long time ago. But it doesn't change the fact the importance of a Franchise QB and how Luck can be that QB we have been looking for 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 or that a QB had a bad 3 game stretch against some good teams? guys arent perfect, they have bad games.this is a putrid argument youre trying to make with a tiny sample size. Eleven INTs. Eleven. In three games. And the causes were obvious to anyone with a 65 football IQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbsisgod2006 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 You can, but your chances if finding a starter are cut in half when you go from first to second round. I don't think that is the case I think a 20 years ago Jimmy Johnson did some reasearch and found that most of your starters come from the second and third rounds of your draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Eleven INTs. Eleven. In three games. And the causes were obvious to anyone with a 65 football IQ. Which three games? If they were the 3 game stretch against the Pats, Chargers and Cowboys; your doing an ASF manipulation job and not being entirely factual with your back-up claim. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
authentic Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 True they should have invested in a QB a long time ago. But it doesn't change the fact the importance of a Franchise QB and how Luck can be that QB we have been looking for 20 years. for the record, i never disagreed with that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 You missed the point... which was that Walsh and Shanahan must have realized that the QB position isn't all you need to know about football. Young and Plummer looked like losers with their previous teams. Walsh gave up a couple of mid-round draft picks for Young. Plummer was obtained as a free agent by Shanahan. Shanny's record with Plummer at QB was 39-15. young looked like a "loser" for one season. clearly the guy had a ton of potential (that walsh didnt think was realized in tampa) and he was right about it, and it worked wonders for him after he left. so whats your point about plummer? that you can have a few decent years with a retread QB if everything else on the team works? those teams had the top 2, top 4, and top 2 running games in 03/04/05, so again, all thats saying is you can take a mediocre QB, stick him being an awesome oline/running game to mask his weaknesses, and then when the playoffs come, you get exposed and lose. congratulations, youre the jets and ravens. and shanny drafted cutler right after that 05 season, so clearly he wanted an upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I don't think that is the case I think a 20 years ago Jimmy Johnson did some reasearch and found that most of your starters come from the second and third rounds of your draft.When a stat doesn't make sense, it's probably a bad stat. That one doesn't make sense unless you are saying that the second and third rounds combined have a higher hit rate than the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Eleven INTs. Eleven. In three games. And the causes were obvious to anyone with a 65 football IQ. so youre taking a 3 game sample size for a QB thats played like 180+ games and using that as proof that a manning needed help from receivers? lets also throw out that he threw 8 TDs in those 3 games too. pretty dumb IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointyfootball Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Sorry man, I couldn't disagree with you more. I just posted a feature on newly-acquired RB Tashard Choice on my website this morning, and while doing research for it I went back and looked at the 2008 NFL Draft. Here are the Pro Bowl players who were selected in the second round or later that year: DeSean Jackson, Ray Rice, Jamaal Charles and Carl Nicks. Here are a few of the other productive players teams landed after the first round: Jordy Nelson, Matt Forte, Jermichael Finley, Mario Manningham and Peyton Hillis. The Redskins alone have Tashard Choice, Ryan Torain, Tim Hightower, Kory Lichtensteiger and Fred Davis from after the first round of the '08 draft, so I think it's safe to say that solid and reliable players can be acquired without the use of a first-round pick. Disagreement is good. However, I think your points above prove MY point, in that there were four pro bowlers taken in rounds 2-7 (approximately 190 players), whereas there were seven pro bowlers taken in the first round. Yes, there can be gems found in the later rounds, but a team's chances drop significantly with each successive round, especially 1-2 and 2-3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbsisgod2006 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 It's not all that matter. What matters is that the 11 INTs in three games is proof the the QB can't do it all himself. Actually thats not true the only during that the three game stint Peyton had a majority of his wr's with exception of Dallas Clark, Austin Collie, and Joe Addia. But honestly Tamme fited right in for Clark putting out similar production. Addai has been hurt for the last few years so missing him is not big deal, and Collie is ok but I think that Garcon is a bigger threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 young looked like a "loser" for one season. clearly the guy had a ton of potential (that walsh didnt think was realized in tampa) and he was right about it, and it worked wonders for him after he left.so whats your point about plummer? that you can have a few decent years with a retread QB if everything else on the team works? those teams had the top 2, top 4, and top 2 running games in 03/04/05, so again, all thats saying is you can take a mediocre QB, stick him being an awesome oline/running game to mask his weaknesses, and then when the playoffs come, you get exposed and lose. congratulations, youre the jets and ravens. and shanny drafted cutler right after that 05 season, so clearly he wanted an upgrade. For the third and final time, my point is that Walsh and Shanahan obviously don't belong to the group who thinks that the QB position is all you need to know about football. They realized that Young and Plummer looked like losers because they had not been given a good supporting cast in their previous stops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 For the third and final time, my point is that Walsh and Shanahan obviously don't belong to the group who thinks that the QB position is all you need to know about football. They realized that Young and Plummer looked like losers because they had not been given a good supporting cast in their previous stops. and my point is that again youre using a tiny sample size to qualify young as a loser, and plummer still pretty much looked like a loser in denver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingGibbs Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 For the third and final time, my point is that Walsh and Shanahan obviously don't belong to the group who thinks that the QB position is all you need to know about football. They realized that Young and Plummer looked like losers because they had not been given a good supporting cast in their previous stops. Shanny thought the same thing about our current QB's. How's that working out so far? Forgot to add that he felt that way about Brian Griese also. That worked out great to, didn't it. I can keep going if you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themurf Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 Disagreement is good. However, I think your points above prove MY point, in that there were four pro bowlers taken in rounds 2-7 (approximately 190 players), whereas there were seven pro bowlers taken in the first round. Yes, there can be gems found in the later rounds, but a team's chances drop significantly with each successive round, especially 1-2 and 2-3. So if they're not Pro Bowlers, then you're not interested? You're just going to look right past the part about players such as Jordy Nelson, Matt Forte, Jermichael Finley, Mario Manningham, Peyton Hillis, Tashard Choice, Ryan Torain, Tim Hightower, Kory Lichtensteiger and Fred Davis? I'm pretty sure half the teams in the league wish they could have a do-over on the bulk of the names on that list. My point is, talent can be found anywhere. You just need the right talent evaluators in place. Now, if you're suggesting that you don't have faith in the Redskins front office to acquire talented players outside of the first round, then that's a different discussion all together ... Either way, you're right -- disagreement is good. Especially when no one in the debate pretends to have all of the answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Actually thats not true the only during that the three game stint Peyton had a majority of his wr's with exception of Dallas Clark, Austin Collie, and Joe Addia. But honestly Tamme fited right in for Clark putting out similar production. Addai has been hurt for the last few years so missing him is not big deal, and Collie is ok but I think that Garcon is a bigger threat.You don't remember an injury to Tamme and Garcon playing with a hammy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbsisgod2006 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 When a stat doesn't make sense, it's probably a bad stat. That one doesn't make sense unless you are saying that the second and third rounds combined have a higher hit rate than the first. I am saying that most of the solid player that you need to fill your team with come from the second and or third round of the draft. ---------- Post added November-3rd-2011 at 11:24 AM ---------- You don't remember an injury to Tamme and Garcon playing with a hammy? I just checked the game log and they both played in that 3 game span. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 You don't remember an injury to Tamme and Garcon playing with a hammy? The hammy wasn't bad enough to prevent Garcon starting all three games along with Wayne. How many times did the Colts ask Peyton to throw the rock those three games? Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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