BGO.C.D. - 'The Usual Suspects'

[Oldfan]

I'm still coming to grips with your generally positive outlook Oldfan Give us some time, maybe we'll come around to your viewpoint....

Being positive scares me a bit. I've only been positive twice before in the Snyder era (Spurrier and Zorn) and I was wrong both times.

[TSO]

I will never be paid by any NFL team for my opinion , but I can't believe the job of starting QB is fully decided yet. I agree with the generally noted pros and cons of both guys that have been thoroughly and accurately mentioned by the sharper folks who post here, and where I'm at right now is happy that it looks like the pluses of both (like most everything else on this team) are pretty encouraging at this point.

Yup, that's the best way of looking at it... I just can't believe how hard the media is trying to stir up controversy by acting as if Grossman has no chance. They want these guys to hate each other or something and are, at the very least, trying to divide the locker room. Very annoying.

[Tarhog]

Being positive scares me a bit. I've only been positive twice before in the Snyder era (Spurrier and Zorn) and I was wrong both times.

Well - you may still be wise beyond your years. I have to grasp positivity where I can find it, otherwise, I'll start wondering why I'm committing the 'life energy'

[TSO]

Being positive scares me a bit. I've only been positive twice before in the Snyder era (Spurrier and Zorn) and I was wrong both times.

lol, I still haven't forgot when you got me all pumped up for our first regular season game against the Giants back in 2009. Your thread was titled "Ambush at the Meadowlands" or something. That made the loss even more heart breaking, lol.

[Oldfan]

lol, I still haven't forgot when you got me all pumped up for our first regular season game against the Giants back in 2009. Your thread was titled "Ambush at the Meadowlands" or something. That made the loss even more heart breaking, lol.

My optimism that season was based in part on the premise that because of all the heat he had gotten in the offseason about playing bend-but-don't break, and Jim Zorn's declaration that the defense would be more aggressive, that Greg Blache would give us a more aggressive defense. So, the Giants take the opening kick and march methodically for a TD taking eight minutes off the clock --with our defense playing passively.

Eight minutes into the 2009 season, I knew my predictions had been foolish. They gave me no hope at all that season.

[Sellersfan]

This is starting to remind me of Brunell (Beck) vs. JC (Grossman).

[Tarhog]

We've been the Giants ****es for most of a decade. No one should be faulted for hoping that would end soon...

And actually, Beck (at his best) looks like a young Brunell. That's not a slam, that's high praise in my book. Grossman is more effective on his worst day than Campbell generally was. Good news all around if you ask me.

[Skinsinparadise]

Grossman being an INT machine is mostly urban legend.

Can't be too much of an urban legend for his career he has as many INTs as he does TDs. With the Skins where apparently he's at his peak with the perfect system for him, in his limited time he threw 4 picks and fumbled the ball 4 times.

Aside from the INT's one rap I have read multiple times on Rex is he has a poor pocket presence in terms of feeling pressure. This dude has only been a starter for one year, but he has fumbled the ball 24 times in his career, with the other team recovering the ball 14 of those times.

And he's of course not exactly a stud athlete. He doesn't have a rocket arm, he isn't a mobile QB with speed. I am not saying that I have scouted him and can confidently say the skeptics are right about him but from my own observation in the last 2 games of the season in particular, I noticed his lack of mobility and he looked IMO at times clunky in the face of pressure.

I've already said I agree Beck is more athletic - the point is, it's not just about being able to sprint out gracefully to the right or left, it's about what you do with the ball once you're outside of the pocket. I think Grossman gets the ball out quicker - that's all.

I do think its possible that Beck handles pressure better than Grossman -- avoiding INT's, fumbles and more importantly extending plays when they break down. I know Shanny has said for his system he likes mobile QB's who can extend plays -- that IMO is not Grossman.

Grossman might be our new Todd Collins -- he gets the system and can make quicker decisions because of it. But if that's Grossman's main advantage, Beck should ultimately catch up.

I do think Grossman's lack of athleticism puts more of a ceiling though as to how well he will excel in the system and should give Beck IMO an advantage assuming he can continue to play well.

Edit: None of this is meant as me being down on Grossman, I like the idea of having a Todd Collins type who has the system down and can run it efficiently. From my naked eye, not so much in preseason but last season I cringed whenever pressure was coming on Grossman's blind side, he seemed not to feel the pressure and I gather De's like Osi might have a field day knocking the ball out of his hands. I am hoping Beck wins the job but I can live with Grossman.

[Tarhog]

Can't be too much of an urban legend for his career he has as many INTs as he does TDs. With the Skins where apparently he's at his peak with the perfect system for him, in his limited time he threw 4 picks and fumbled the ball 4 times.

Aside from the INT's one rap I have read multiple times on Rex is he has a poor pocket presence in terms of feeling pressure. This dude has only been a starter for one year, but he has fumbled the ball 24 times in his career, with the other team recovering the ball 14 of those times.

And he's of course not exactly a stud athlete. He doesn't have a rocket arm, he isn't a mobile QB with speed. I am not saying that I have scouted him and can confidently say the skeptics are right about him but from my own observation in the last 2 games of the season in particular, I noticed his lack of mobility and he looked IMO at times clunky in the face of pressure.

I do think its possible that Beck handles pressure better than Grossman -- avoiding INT's, fumbles and more importantly extending plays when they break down. I know Shanny has said for his system he likes mobile QB's who can extend plays -- that IMO is not Grossman.

Grossman might be our new Todd Collins -- he gets the system and can make quicker decisions because of it. But if that's Grossman's main advantage, Beck should ultimately catch up.

I do think Grossman's lack of athleticism puts more of a ceiling though as to how well he will excel in the system and should give Beck IMO an advantage assuming he can continue to play well.

Edit: None of this is meant as me being down on Grossman, I like the idea of having a Todd Collins type who has the system down and can run it efficiently. From my naked eye, not so much in preseason but last season I cringed whenever pressure was coming on Grossman's blind side, he seemed not to feel the pressure and I gather De's like Osi might have a field day knocking the ball out of his hands. I am hoping Beck wins the job but I can live with Grossman.

I actually like this post a lot. Agreed with 90% of it. Only exception being the bash on Grossman throwing as many TDs as he did INTs. Technically, it's exactly correct. 40 career INTs to 40 career TDs thrown. But as we all know, how many TD passing opportunities one has is largely dependent on opportunities. Chicago, where most of Grossman's stats derive from, was hardly a passing QB mecca. TD passing % is a far more fair stat to look at. When looking at Grossman's career from that vantage point, he's statistically right there with lots of solid NFL QBs. He's equal to Kyle Orton, and just slightly worse than guys like David Garrard, Matt Hasselbeck, Joe Flacco, and Matt Schaub. So that's really another urban legend.

I can't argue with the fumbles - I'd agree that's a weakness for him.

[Skinsinparadise]

I actually like this post a lot. Agreed with 90% of it. Only exception being the bash on Grossman throwing as many TDs as he did INTs. Technically, it's exactly correct. 40 career INTs to 40 career TDs thrown. But as we all know, how many TD passing opportunities one has is largely dependent on opportunities. Chicago, where most of Grossman's stats derive from, was hardly a passing QB mecca. TD passing % is a far more fair stat to look at. When looking at Grossman's career from that vantage point, he's statistically right there with lots of solid NFL QBs. He's equal to Kyle Orton, and just slightly worse than guys like David Garrard, Matt Hasselbeck, Joe Flacco, and Matt Schaub. So that's really another urban legend.

I can't argue with the fumbles - I'd agree that's a weakness for him.

Thanks. I didn't really watch Grossman much in Chicago to see the context of the INTs. However, in his defense he is a bit of a gambler and when you take chances you have more shots at glory but also failure. Again, for me granted its real superficial but what worried me when I watched him (didn't really see if though yet in pre season) is that he didn't seem to have that "it" factor in terms of anticipating pressure. Actually for his faults, I thought McNabb was decent at it. Feeling the pressure coming before its too late. However, Grossman was impressive against the Steelers. You can see he's playing with confidence.

As for Beck, my main thing that I trust is that Shanny trusts him. And his talents seem to fit his system well. And a good start so far

[Tarhog]

Agreed. Barring the McNabb fiasco (which I have always viewed as a reasonably calculated risk - and a fairly inexpensive one at that), there's no reason to believe Shanahan and Allen don't know exactly what they are doing. I believe. I'll embrace whatever they decide. And as Jumbo rightly pointed out - none of us are making a living on the basis of our incredbily accurate NFL prognositications

But it's a lot of fun to speculate, as this thread fully proves...

[NewCliche21]

I actually like this post a lot. Agreed with 90% of it. Only exception being the bash on Grossman throwing as many TDs as he did INTs. Technically, it's exactly correct. 40 career INTs to 40 career TDs thrown. But as we all know, how many TD passing opportunities one has is largely dependent on opportunities. Chicago, where most of Grossman's stats derive from, was hardly a passing QB mecca. TD passing % is a far more fair stat to look at. When looking at Grossman's career from that vantage point, he's statistically right there with lots of solid NFL QBs. He's equal to Kyle Orton, and just slightly worse than guys like David Garrard, Matt Hasselbeck, Joe Flacco, and Matt Schaub. So that's really another urban legend.

I can't argue with the fumbles - I'd agree that's a weakness for him.

1) Great blog post, Tarhog. I actually *just* saw the movie for the first time a few weeks ago. How I made it 27 years without it being spoiled is beyond me.

2) Aside from the great points that are going back and forth, like the quoted exchange between Tarhog and Skinsinparadise, is another major thing that only a few people seem to be seeing: We're having this discussion. We're discussing which quarterback is better among two quarterbacks who have played pretty well. When's the last time that this happened? Really, let's go back and look (I'm just picking 1999 since it's the beginning of the Snyder era and Gus was a pretty solid choice for a few years):

1999 - Brad Johnson versus Rodney Peete: No real contest here. Johnson was arguably the best quarterback we've had since Rypien.

2000 - Brad Johnson versus Jeff George: The first of many :doh: moments for the Snyder years. Arguably the watershed moment for the "Deadskins" moniker, a 7-4 Brad Johnson is replaced by Jeff George who comes in and, well, is Jeff George. At least he threw the ball really far during that 1-4 collapse.

2001 - Tony Banks versus Jeff George: Sigh. Tony Banks was our best quarterback. I know, he had a winning record, but Tony Banks? Seriously?

2002 - Shane Matthews versus Patrick Ramsey versus Danny Wuerffel: :doh:

2003 - Patrick Ramsey versus Tim Hasselbeck: At least Hasselbeck was something. Ramsey had some growing pains. Well, maybe not growing pains so much as Fun 'N Gun in the NFL pains. Nothing to write home about for our quarterback situation unless you're requesting a new quarterback situation.

2004 - Mark Brunell versus Patrick Ramsey: The first year back for Shanah-- err, Gibbs after inheriting what had become a complete mess made by two years with a rookie coach Zo--, err, Spurrier. Bring in a mobile quarterback who was able to do something before in Donov--, err, Mark Brunell. Yes, we had Ramsey, but he was the abused stepchild whose father ran out on him and Brunell had actually had some success in Jacksonville and cost us a third rounder, so go with Brunell.

2005 - Mark Brunell versus Patrick Ramsey: "Patrick Ramsey is our starting quarterback," is what we heard from Coach Gibbs. What we didn't hear was the last three words: ". . . for two series." One clothesline and in comes Brunell who throws for three field goals. The next week is the Monday Night Miracle and, well, Brunell has a 23 TD/10 INT season with a very underrated team that came a blown two-point conversion call from being the second seed in the conference.

2006 - Mark Brunell versus Jason Campbell: If it could go wrong, then it went wrong. Late in the season when we had already mailed it in, Campbell comes in. It's the Gibbs guy that we'd all been hoping for. Does he throw short? Oh, no, he's going deep and . . . Brandon Lloyd, a vaunted addition costing a third and fourth if I'm remembering correctly, warms us up for Albert Haynesworth by doing nothing with the pass. It was a sign of things to come.

2007 - Jason Campbell versus nobody and then Todd Collins: Campbell's our man for flashes in the pan until his kneecap takes a page from future quarterback Rex Grossman and says, "***** it, I'm going deep!" And successfully leaves where it's supposed to be. Collins comes in, lights it up for the rest of the season, and then craps out a few lame ducks in his playoff appearance.

2008 - Jason Campbell versus Todd Collins: Jason Campbell plays all 16 games. It looks good to start and then goes to crap. Again, not a battle of titans.

2009 - Jason Campbell versus Todd Collins: Like 2008 without the good start. Pretty sure that Hunter the Punter was our best passer that year.

2010 - Donovan McNabb versus "two-minute drill"/Rex Grossman: McNabb blows, Grossman actually does something productive and gives fans a glimmer of hope for at least a 2-14 season in 2011.

As you can see, we haven't had a discussion about who was the better quarterback; we've only had discussions about who wasn't as bad. So far, in our extremely limited sample size, Beck and Grossman have given us the problem of having two legitimately solid quarterbacks vying for a starting position. Neither is a world-beater by any length, but the "tank the season for a quarterback" has let up a lot, and that's really saying something.

[Tarhog]

Thanks for catching that nuance NewCliche21....that's a helluva post. Sometimes I think folks only read the first 2 lines, then reply. You clearly read the whole thing. \ If I could give some more props for such a well thought-out post, I would

[DanDan]

Wow NewCliche21 gets a A+ for that post. When you read that ....... it sure brings to print what SUFFERING is all about.

Just have a gut felling that there are a WHOLE LOT OF BETTER DAYS COMING SOON .

HTTR

Dan

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Yup. Basically, I'd refer to my opening post of the horserace thread. I'd say it's even with Beck having at most a nose lead because of Grossman's pick. Then again, Grossman excelled against a far superior defense that historically takes preseason quite seriously (look how they responded to their thrashing in their next game against the Eagles).

My hope is that they alternate starts the next two games and then let the best player win. Still, I'm more comfortable then I thought I would be.

The highlighted sentence is what we should all be prepared for...

[NewCliche21]

Thanks for catching that nuance NewCliche21....that's a helluva post. Sometimes I think folks only read the first 2 lines, then reply. You clearly read the whole thing. \ If I could give some more props for such a well thought-out post, I would

Wow NewCliche21 gets a A+ for that post. When you read that ....... it sure brings to print what SUFFERING is all about.

Just have a gut felling that there are a WHOLE LOT OF BETTER DAYS COMING SOON .

HTTR

Dan

For the record, I paid both of these guys to make those posts.