Kings Dominion

[greenspandan]

Yeah, now that they've completely rebuilt that first high-speed turn to reduce the G-force on riders, it's much better. Logically then, last year it must have been something of a threat to health since it was even more intense then than it is now.

eh, i don't notice much difference between its original version and the current version from a rider experience standpoint. hopefully it's saving them money on wheels. the biggest improvement is the softer straps.

But that's (ride manufacturer) Intamin for you, frequently getting it wrong with their first try. I'm trying to think of a ride designer that has seen a larger quantity of questionable ride-related deaths over the past 30 years. I'm not coming up with any. Given their track record with other intense rides, I'm not surprised at all that either Intamin or the park insisted upon using an over-the-shoulder restraint system rather than just a lap bar on Intimidator 305.

while i agree with you that OTSR's are appropriate on i305 (due to the crazy direction changes), i don't think you can really blame the 2 Superman deaths on Intamin. one passenger had MS, and the other passenger had no legs. that is ride op error to let those people on board in the first place. particularly the latter -- there are plenty of non-Intamin rides which would have been unsafe for him.

Top steel coaster in the country: Bizarro up at Six Flags New England. Also Intamin.

always the popular choice, but i think i305 might seriously challenge it in the 2011 results it took third in mitch's poll last year, when many if not most participants only experienced the "trimmed" version (i think all the hand-wringing over the restraints and trims possibly hurt its polling in year one).

---------- Post added July-19th-2011 at 09:10 PM ----------

Remember the king cobra and the magic carpet ride that was next to a small rollercoaster I think named galaxy it use to be were the shockwave is now.

yep, some of my earliest memories are of that green and red carpet slide!

interestingly, the location where Shockwave stands seems to be cursed. both the Galaxie coaster and the Shockwave inflicted a fatality. (a kid stood up and was decapitated on the Galaxie, and a man wriggled out of his restraints intentionally for unknown reasons on the Shockwave).

[Kosher Ham]

This must have been before me, and I started going in the 80's. Since Ive been going, Shockwave has always been there. I remember when it was the parks main attraction. lol. Its such a short ride. If I remember correctly, a while back someone either died or was severely injured by it too.

Doesnt Six Flags in MD have the most injuries for an amusement park? I vaguely remember someone getting their feet cut off on a Superman ride... something like that. Does anyone remember that? I havent been to Six Flags in such a long time though.

It was before your time then. King Cobra was sitting exactly where the Shockwave is now.

News of this 96 mph coaster has me interested in a visit to the park. I had no idea. I would probably ride alone since my family besides my brother are all scared to rock it out.

[Titaw]

Mjah, guess what company is responsible for El Toro. If you guessed Intamin you are correct. El Toro is my favorite coaster to date, but I fear it is because I haven't ridden The Voyage at Holiday World. I305 is in close second and this is only due to the ride being a tad on the short side.

The reprofiling of the first turn on I305 was because the wheels were wearing out too quickly.

As far as the other rides, Volcano is definitely worth it, but as GreenspanDan has stated ride it first. Dominator is the best coaster with inversions in the park, Grizzly is a good woodie ride, Hurler is okay, Rebel Yell is nostalgic (BTW the company that made the trains for the Rebel Yell informed Cedar Fair that the trains were not designed to run backwards and if Cedar Fair continued to run the trains backwards the train manufacturing company could not be held liable for an injuries sustatined), Stunt Coaster is pretty fun, Avalanche is the only ride of it's kind in the US, Flight of Fear is some really good fun, and the Scooby Doo (known as the ghoster Coaster but I can't bring myself to call it that) is pretty fun for a "kiddie" woodie.

The death that occurred on the Shockwave was due to a donk freeing himself from the restraints and being thrown from the train entering the final brake run. The Six Flags foot lopping incident happened on their drop ride where a low lying cable was not cleared and the rider's feet were lopped off.

[mjah]

while i agree with you that OTSR's are appropriate on i305 (due to the crazy direction changes), i don't think you can really blame the 2 Superman deaths on Intamin. one passenger had MS, and the other passenger had no legs. that is ride op error to let those people on board in the first place. particularly the latter -- there are plenty of non-Intamin rides which would have been unsafe for him.

Well, a guy with no legs just shouldn't be riding. No argument there. What can you do but rely completely on ride ops and his own judgment.

But in the first case, cerebral palsy (a disqualification from riding, IF the guy or his friends volunteer it to the ops) didn't really lead to the guy's death. It was his size that led to the accident. As was noted in the Commonwealth of MA report on his death, he was 5'-3" and over 225 lb. That was the dominant factor in the restraint failure that led to his ejection from the ride. So my question is, why were there no additional baked-in measures to provide safety redundancy? There were exactly two safety devices -- a T-bar and a seat belt -- for a ride which requires at least one of them to work in order to literally prevent any rider from experiencing an extremely likely ejection. Both safety devices obviously were defeated due to really just one major factor: rider size. Yet other manufacturers at that time managed to have multiple overlapping safety measures which were not all vulnerable to the same color of Kryptonite (pardon the accidental pun).

There was yet another near-fatal ejection from an Intamin ride (the lesser Superman design, mirror-image twin of the one in Largo MD and the same one from which the legless guy fell 12 years later) when a 300-lb guy was chucked right out of the vehicle while it was in motion. Familiar story: he was a big dude and the restraint wasn't lowered enough / seat belt wasn't configured properly to hold him in. I consider it miraculous that he only almost died. That, and only that, led Intamin to add new controls to the ride which would prevent a train from leaving the station unless all restraints were lowered beyond a certain specific point.

Which means that before this guy was tossed, Intamin didn't have that control in place for a ride which, being operated by human beings and being capable of ejecting riders, clearly needed it. :mad:

And that's my issue with many larger Intamin rides: poorly trained ride ops are a fact of life. There is no amount of training on Earth that can prevent stupid ride op decisions from occasionally happening. But in my experience, many Intamin rides seem to offer notably less in the way of designed-in measures to control for that reality. There are lots of these design measures available too; companies like B&M and even (to a lesser degree) old-school Arrow are/were proficient at incorporating them in very effective ways. With B&M they're almost eerily subtle at times, even as various design aspects of their rides stare you right in the face. Intamin, though, often seems to consider these measures to be less important on their biggest rides -- or worse yet, doesn't consider them at all. I can't say which without being in their heads, but I definitely can point to their installed designs and objectively note the differences vs. many other suppliers' rides.

To provide a summary review of (in)effective design countermeasures against operator error would require a lot more time and depth than I'll post on here, and there's only so much that's public knowledge anyway. But suffice it to say, Intamin is nowhere near the top of the heap for this type of thing. You can see many of the differences between their rides and other major vendors' rides just by watching and partaking in a few cycles of their respective installations.

I won't spoil the fun by giving away the answers though. Many are evident enough, and it's just a matter of taking a look. We could all use an excuse to go to the parks one extra time this summer. :pfft:

Mjah, guess what company is responsible for El Toro. If you guessed Intamin you are correct.

You mean like in my earlier post where I mentioned that Intamin manufactured El Toro? :yes:

[Bubble Screen]

It was before your time then. King Cobra was sitting exactly where the Shockwave is now.

News of this 96 mph coaster has me interested in a visit to the park. I had no idea. I would probably ride alone since my family besides my brother are all scared to rock it out.

KH, Is this Intimidator coaster at KD the same one as at Carowinds? I've been wanting to get on that ride. But haven't gotten out there this year. I love coasters!

[Kosher Ham]

KH, Is this Intimidator coaster at KD the same one as at Carowinds? I've been wanting to get on that ride. But haven't gotten out there this year. I love coasters!

I think one of them is smaller and slower. Not sure which one though, never checked up on it. I havent been to Carowinds in a few years. The park bores me after one go around. Carowinds is too small.

EDIT: Just checked and the one at Carowinds is the smaller, slower one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intimidator_(roller_coaster)

[RichmondRedskin88]

Does anyone go on the Richochet still? I always use to hit it just for the amusement of being bounced everywhere.

[greenspandan]

Well, a guy with no legs just shouldn't be riding. No argument there. What can you do but rely completely on ride ops and his own judgment.

you say this, but then you go and blame Intamin in an incident where a humongous person was not only allowed to ride, but wasn't even strapped in properly.

i absolutely believe you when you say that the safety of B&Ms and even Arrows are more difficult to compromise through sheer negligence or stupidity. but it seems like as long as you fit in the restraints and the restaints are properly adjusted, then Intamin is no riskier than any other manufacturer.

---------- Post added July-20th-2011 at 12:41 PM ----------

I think one of them is smaller and slower. Not sure which one though, never checked up on it. I havent been to Carowinds in a few years. The park bores me after one go around. Carowinds is too small.

EDIT: Just checked and the one at Carowinds is the smaller, slower one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intimidator_(roller_coaster)

They are totally different rides. Intimidator at Carowinds is a B&M Hypercoaster. 232 feet tall. it has floaty airtime and smooth hills, just like Nitro or Apollo's Chariot if you've been on one of those. Intimidator 305 at Kings Dominion is an Intamin Gigacoaster. 305 feet tall, and it is a wild, intense beast of a ride. i honestly don't know what to compare it to. it is like riding an evil and enraged version of Millennium Force.

[mjah]

you say this, but then you go and blame Intamin in an incident where a humongous person was not only allowed to ride, but wasn't even strapped in properly.

Yep, I draw the line between the two And Intamin agrees with me!

After the big guy got ejected, they modified the ride in question with an integrated sensor and lockout system to prevent the situation from happening again -- a device which certain other manufacturers found important enough to design into their rides from day one. Intamin didn't make this modification until after the accident. (This is all public information, nothing proprietary.) Why would you install a ride with the types of dynamic forces an Intamin coaster generates, and then fail to check for adequate restraint position (not just a yes/no on locking) before dispatch? It's nutty, and in my opinion it is dangerous.

i absolutely believe you when you say that the safety of B&Ms and even Arrows are more difficult to compromise through sheer negligence or stupidity. but it seems like as long as you fit in the restraints and the restaints are properly adjusted, then Intamin is no riskier than any other manufacturer.

Well, that's a big if. And given that ride ops are imperfect humans, I wouldn't want to risk that in an industry where a fatality rate of 1 per 200,000,000 rides causes politicians like Ed Markey to start putting their fingers up in your business.

Considering the forces you experience on an Intamin ride vs. other manufacturers', there's a safety element missing from Intamin's rides. Should a restraint fail to stay closed or be closed insufficiently by ops (both rare but they do happen), the ride dynamics are more than capable of forcefully throwing you out. Most other steel coasters out there are at least reasonably survivable if you lose your restraint: the G-force profile typically won't conspire to separate you from the vehicle.

Intamin decided to cross that line, and that's fine -- as long as the full system consisting of rider, operator, and ride are up to the task. You can't do much about those first two parts of the system, except to endlessly train and inform. The third is the last line of defense. You might not expect it to stop a legless guy from falling out, but it should know when its own settings are unsafe.

[greenspandan]

Well, that's a big if. And given that ride ops are imperfect humans, I wouldn't want to risk that in an industry where a fatality rate of 1 per 200,000,000 rides causes politicians like Ed Markey to start putting their fingers up in your business.

yeah, and maybe that's why i'm so quick to defend Intamin here. driving to an amusement park is statistically about 500 times more dangerous than riding the rollercoasters there, but a single injury or accident can lead to a bunch of new restrictions, even if it wasn't the ride's fault. i'm sure it sounds gross or selfish that i'm whining about "one measly dead kid" ruining my fun, but so be it

[Stew]

This thread has been really interesting. Apollo's Chariot is in Busch Gardens right? Didnt their Loch Ness Monster hold a record of some sort for a while? Largest loop maybe? Does Busch Gardens have anything that can compete with Intimidator 305? That coaster has turned me into a Rollercoaster junkie.

[Titaw]

It was before your time then. King Cobra was sitting exactly where the Shockwave is now.

News of this 96 mph coaster has me interested in a visit to the park. I had no idea. I would probably ride alone since my family besides my brother are all scared to rock it out.

Actually Galaxie (another ride where an idiot got himself killed on it) sat where Shockwave now stands. King Cobra was located where Anaconda is currently.

[greenspandan]

This thread has been really interesting. Apollo's Chariot is in Busch Gardens right? Didnt their Loch Ness Monster hold a record of some sort for a while? Largest loop maybe? Does Busch Gardens have anything that can compete with Intimidator 305? That coaster has turned me into a Rollercoaster junkie.

Loch Ness Monster is notable for being the first coaster with interlocking loops, but i don't think it was ever the tallest or fastest anything.

i am a KD fanboy, but Busch Gardens absolutely can compete with Kings Dominion on the rollercoaster front. BG doesn't have as many coasters as KD, but all of BG's coasters are world-class.

[Stew]

Loch Ness Monster is notable for being the first coaster with interlocking loops, but i don't think it was ever the tallest or fastest anything.

i am a KD fanboy, but Busch Gardens absolutely can compete with Kings Dominion on the rollercoaster front. BG doesn't have as many coasters as KD, but all of BG's coasters are world-class.

I gotcha. BG is my next stop then. I still don't know what they replaced the Big Bad Wolf with. That coaster was pretty weak, felt like a gondola ride through an old german town.

As far as quality goes, excluding the Disneys, where does KD rank on the list of amusement parks? Id guess Ceder Point is probably #1, or close, but where does KD rank as far as a quality amuesment park? Based on rides, attractions, size, etc...

[Titaw]

I gotcha. BG is my next stop then. I still don't know what they replaced the Big Bad Wolf with. That coaster was pretty weak, felt like a gondola ride through an old german town.

As far as quality goes, excluding the Disneys, where does KD rank on the list of amusement parks? Id guess Ceder Point is probably #1, or close, but where does KD rank as far as a quality amuesment park? Based on rides, attractions, size, etc...

The coaster that is replacing BBW won't be ready until 2012.

KD is great for volume of rides and proximity to the DC area. Before Intimidator 305, KD was a decent park with only two world class coasters. With the addition of only the second Giga coaster in America KD may be on track to move up in the amusement park world but as of now Six Flags Great Adventure in New Jersey and Busch Gardens Williamsburg are both better that KD IMHO.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

I went the "express" route this year and got Six Flags America season passes for my girlfriend and I. The reason I say "express" is because while the coasters are definitely not on par with the better parks around the country, the lines to ride them are incredibly short. We rode the Superman Ride of Steel 22 times in one day...and we could have got on it more but we didn't want to spend all damn day on it.

I know it isn't the most amazing coaster, but it's a really good one, and the lines are shockingly short. I would definitely go for King Dominion over Six Flags if it wasn't for how amazingly crowded Kings Dominion gets. The worst line I've ever stood in was the line for the Volcano in the middle of a hot day. Pouring sweat, everyone stinks, 80 light years long, it was horrible. The ride, however, is awesome. The initial sprint is especially long, then you shoot straight up in the air, the fire gives a heat-blast to your body...it's a little underrated IMO.

As far as Six Flags, I've been able to STAY on some of their coasters during prime hours (weekdays of course). I'll just give a short review on them all:

#1 Superman Ride of Steel: Like I said, really really good, not quite elite. Most of the time the line for the front car is the only one that you'll have to wait a few rides for. You can nab a middle car right away usually.

#2 Roar: Classic rickety wooden coaster littered with bank turns, real good speed to it. Usually no lines on this one.

#3 Mind Eraser: Hanging coaster set up way high in the air, decent speed, good corkscrews. Line on this one is sometimes a pain though.

#4 The Wild One: It has a surprise freakin' herky-jerky turn in the middle of it that is liable to damage someone's spine one day, but it's still funny to hear everyone gasp when they hit it. Then at the end you really pull some G's while flying around in a circle. There's usually no wait to get on this one.

#5 Batwing: Lying down/hanging coaster, feels like you're flying. Really good ride, but takes a while to switch out riders, the line is a ***** most of the time.

#6 Joker's Jinx: I used to like this coaster, but I'd rather ride it at Kings Dominion where they call it the "Flight of Fear". It's indoors there with cool lights flashing all over the place, much better. The initial blast off is cool and the end is pretty intense, but the middle of the Joker's jinx is, well, a joke. It slows down to a snail's pace and makes you wish you walked a little further to the Superman. Only way I ride this is if I see nobody is in line for the front car.

Anyway, back to the KD discussion!

[greenspandan]

Big Bad Wolf's replacement is still under construction, scheduled to open next year.

as for favorite parks ... i would be hard-pressed to rank them, but my favorites are Cedar Point, Kennywood, Kings Dominion, and Busch Gardens Williamsburg.

[Stew]

I know it isn't the most amazing coaster, but it's a really good one, and the lines are shockingly short. I would definitely go for King Dominion over Six Flags if it wasn't for how amazingly crowded Kings Dominion gets. The worst line I've ever stood in was the line for the Volcano in the middle of a hot day. Pouring sweat, everyone stinks, 80 light years long, it was horrible. The ride, however, is awesome. The initial sprint is especially long, then you shoot straight up in the air, the fire gives a heat-blast to your body...it's a little underrated IMO.

#5 Batwing: Lying down/hanging coaster, feels like you're flying. Really good ride, but takes a while to switch out riders, the line is a ***** most of the time.

!

Volcano line is borderline torture. Once you get inside the Mtn where Haunted trail used to be, you still have a mile to wait, and it gets hot in there! Honestly, I like the Volcano for the first thrust, but half way through it, it feels a little slow for me. Ive become more parshall to the Dominator. I love that ride. Its buttery smooth, and quick and just more fun to me then Volcano, but the line at Volcano takes away from any enjoyment I have on it. BC the Dominator is a faster coaster, i think it lends to the shorter line... on average.

I went on Flight of Fear on July 2nd (nobody at the park because the following two days were military appreciation day and Im sure everyone was waiting for the Military discount to get in) and none of the flashing lights or strobes were working, and again, once you get inside and are still in line, you are sweating. I wish they would just blow a fan over indoor portion of the line, the air gets so stale, and yeah, people stink.

I havent been to Six Flags in MD strictly because its a ways away from me, and KD is not very far. Id love to go on the batwing as it sounds cool to be facing down on a coaster, but i don't think ill be going out of my way to make it up there.

[greenspandan]

i don't think there ever were any flashing lights or strobes on Flight of Fear -- it was always a dark ride. there was a funny video that they used to show in line, though, back when it was "Outer Limits: Flight of Fear"

[mjah]

yeah, and maybe that's why i'm so quick to defend Intamin here. driving to an amusement park is statistically about 500 times more dangerous than riding the rollercoasters there, but a single injury or accident can lead to a bunch of new restrictions, even if it wasn't the ride's fault. i'm sure it sounds gross or selfish that i'm whining about "one measly dead kid" ruining my fun, but so be it

I agree with you 100% on that. The safety records for every single manufacturer of these rides, and the parks operating them, are pretty incredible -- especially considering that their devices hurtle you through the sky at crazy speeds and in every conceivable orientation. It's just in the comparisons between various suppliers that the differences stand out.

And it's really the relative lack of amusement ride accidents that cause the occasional accident to stand out. With the media and political attention that surround these once-in-a-blue-moon events, the players involved become victims of their own success. Which then leads me to the frustrations I copiously listed earlier... but I've already beaten that to death, twice over.

---------- Post added July-20th-2011 at 01:54 PM ----------

Back in the 90s I used to have a VHS copy of "America's Greatest Roller Coaster Thrills" or something like that, which featured (among several other rides) POV footage of the Outer Limits: Flight Of Fear.

The entire ride video was literally almost pitch black. Whose brilliant idea was that?

[Stew]

i don't think there ever were any flashing lights or strobes on Flight of Fear -- it was always a dark ride. there was a funny video that they used to show in line, though, back when it was "Outer Limits: Flight of Fear"

Ah, it was my first time riding. That explains it. I had overheard something of the sort in line, so my expectations may have been a little high.

Totally unrelated, I went out and bought Rollercoaster Tycoon for my PC after work last night. Im having a ton of fun building my own theme park and rollercoasters.

[skins1206]

Haven't been to kd in a few years. Ever since I went to cedar point I have had any desire to go anywhere else. The maverick is the best coaster I have ever been on. It doesn't even look special as you walk up.

Anyone know if cedar point added anything substantial in the past few years?

[Titaw]

Haven't been to kd in a few years. Ever since I went to cedar point I have had any desire to go anywhere else. The maverick is the best coaster I have ever been on. It doesn't even look special as you walk up.

Anyone know if cedar point added anything substantial in the past few years?

As far as coasters go nothing since Maverick. They have added Shoot the Rapids a flume/boat ride and Windseeker a really tall swing.

[Hdf561]

IMO Busch Gardens is far superior to KD in every way....rides, view, atmosphere,shows, etc. its not even close. Now I will say that the opnion has changed in the last several years and that is with age.

When I was a kid it was KD all day and all nite, but as I have gotten older the atmosphere and a some of its other offerings make a difference especially when I am dropping the money for it. So if I am gonna drop 50 bucks to feed 4 people it better be damn good, KD there are only a few places worth eating but at BG just about every where is top notch.

Plus KD is a nothing but asphalt and it gets HOT yesterday it was so hot there, and there is hardly any shade. At BG there is a ton of shade and the park is more spread out, sure more walking but it never seems like it is very full, and they actually take care of the park...KD is actually a pretty big dump compared to other parks, alot of rides need painting, refurbing, and the whole park needs a face lift but Cedar Fair is not into that, they are not going to spend money on anything they do not have to which is piss poor in my opinion.

To me nothing beats Disney the magic of it all, the customer service, food, atmosphere if I could afford to go to Disney once a year I would do it, they offer everything, and if you go in the off season the parks are nto crowded at all we tend to go in October and have never had a bad experience.

I have been to SIx Flags in Maryland and it was ok as well, nothign real special though.

Surprisingly I took my wife to Dollywood and it had one of te best wooden roller coasters I have ever been on called Thunderhead, a ton of airtime, fast, and just awesome, and overall I would have to say Dollywood is better than KD as well

[shuler74]

Back in the day before the shockwave ....the galaxy and magic carper ride