(March, 2011) Hey, Mike. You're Losing Me, Man.

[zoony]

Has the Team and organization gotten better since Allen/Shanahan took over?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Has the Team and organization gotten better since Allen/Shanahan took over?

Now instead of drafting three redundant skill players each year, we draft a dozen redundant skill players.

[zoony]

Now instead of drafting three redundant skill players each year' date=' we draft a dozen redundant skill players.[/quote']

considering we don't have any skill players on the team currently, I'll wait to reserve judgement. I'm actually thinking about trying out for WR this year. I figure I have a shot.

...

[Oldfan]

Has the Team and organization gotten better since Allen/Shanahan took over?

I think the organization has gotten better. I think we have moved from the promise of low-end mediocrity to the high end.

[KDawg]

Has the Team and organization gotten better since Allen/Shanahan took over?

Two different questions...

Has the organization gotten better since Allen/Shanahan took over?

Yes. Things are being run a lot better. Until we try to make a big splash (Vince Young, anyone?) I think we're definitely headed in the right direction from a economic standpoint. We're clearly spending money more wisely and our draft being loaded with team captains speaks volumes to me.

Has the Team gotten better since Allen/Shanahan took over?

Remains to be seen, for sure. But I'd say probably not. I have no idea who our receivers are going to be. We're all pinning our hopes at runningback on Ryan Torain (who I like, but he's always hurt) and Helu (who has already gotten a cult following here, which usually translates to bust status ). Defensively, I don't feel our outside backers are a good compliment for one another. Kerrigan and Orakpo are going to have the same strengths and weaknesses for the most part. Poor coverage, mediocre in space, great pass rush. Give or take a few skill points in each category. I have no idea who is playing corner for us other than DeAngelo. We've improved the FS position tenfold. And who knows with the defensive line. But our offensive line looks the exact same. And right now our quarterback is... John Beck.

I'd say no, the team hasn't gotten better... We've probably gotten worse.

[The Tris]

Has the Team and organization gotten better since Allen/Shanahan took over?

See, I view this as faulty logic and one of the unfortunate side effects of the past decade.

The bar is set at ridiculously low heights - "Are they better than Zorn/Gibbs/Cerrato/Spurrier" has become the benchmark for success.

Bruce Allen and Mike Shanahan should be graded based on how they compare to the best FOs in the league, and the FOs of the teams that are doing the best job rebuilding their team and developing young talent. If they are not, we need to find out what other teams are doing better than us and emulate that plan.

Can anyone say we are one of the best FOs in the league at this time? Can anyone say we are one of the teams doing the best job rebuilding and developing young talent?

I sure can't. And until we can, the success that fans cling to revelent to the incompetence of the past decade is meaningless.

[KDawg]

Can anyone say we are one of the best FOs in the league at this time? Can anyone say we are one of the teams doing the best job rebuilding and developing young talent?

Of course not. But the FO is certainly better and taking in your point that the bar is set low, I'd say we're headed in the right direction as far as our FO in comparison with the rest of the league as well. But we're not there yet and it definitely remains to be seen if it keeps getting better.

IF we sign McNabb Light, that's the real test of this FO. If he bombs, the FO just jumped thirty notches backwards. If he succeeds... The FO scores big time.

[The Tris]

IF we sign McNabb Light, that's the real test of this FO. If he bombs, the FO just jumped thirty notches backwards. If he succeeds... The FO scores big time.

Whats your take on the rumored wave of other FA signings? I feel like VY is but one move of many that could undo the momentum of the draft's youth infusion.

[KDawg]

Whats your take on the rumored wave of other FA signings? I feel like VY is but one move of many that could undo the momentum of the draft's youth infusion.

I don't like any of the "big rumors". Hasselbeck has nothing left in the tank. He was horrendous last year. Bulger is probably the best option, but I don't think he's any good anymore, either.

I'd rather roll with Alex Smith. He has flashes of brilliance from the pocket. But he's not a great choice either.

None of our choices are ideal.

Palmer would be pretty decent... but he'd be a trade piece and probably not one we'd want to give stuff up for. He'd be a true stop-gap.

[The Tris]

I was actually thinking of non-QB FA signings.

[zoony]

Really, the entire "we're on the wrong path" argument still comes down simply to the Donovan trade.

Bruce and Shanny came in and immediately cut, what... 7 or 8 vets? With a follow up of cutting Portis, Carter, etc. not to mention Devin Thomas. They brought in a lot of youth on special teams and along the Oline last year with limited picks... we had several UDFA come in and get roster spots. And this year I think we drafted more players than any other team (someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm guessing. Either way it was a ****load).

I think Mike has always been particular on his QBs. He looks for a very specific skill set and I think he's kind of told himself he is going to have that regardless. Not sure I agree, but to consistently point to one position as evidence we're not rebuilding is myopic.

All I will ask of the new regime is that they stop overpaying vets, focus more on the draft, put needed focus on the QB position, and above all, get better. So far I think they've done a decent job. But, much too early to call either way. However, I do feel comfortable that

(a) we're not going to see $100million FA bust signings for fat worthless lumps of ****.'

( we're not going to hold on to vets past their servicable life because Snyder thinks they sell tickets

© the Team will not ignore the FA market for the sake of draft, draft, draft.

(d) the Team will play the best guys, and the best guys will get roster spots. It won't be the guys that the GM wants to make them look good.

It's a shame we can't bring back Vinny and Zorn. Oldfan might become a fan again

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?279546-Nice-Move-Vinny

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?277365-We-Have-to-Hold-Onto-Jim-Zorn

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?237875-Making-Sense-of-Dan-s-Plan

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?262547-I-Think-It-s-Okay-to-Believe-Now

[Conn]

It's a shame we can't bring back Vinny and Zorn. Oldfan might become a fan again

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?279546-Nice-Move-Vinny

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?277365-We-Have-to-Hold-Onto-Jim-Zorn

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?237875-Making-Sense-of-Dan-s-Plan

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?262547-I-Think-It-s-Okay-to-Believe-Now

Wow. Talk about someone who, apparently, can talk himself into anything BESIDES a higher level of competence.

[Going Commando]

"I don't know what rebuild is. I think there's an opportunity each week to do well in the NFL. Last year we had a chance to do better, we had a chance to do worse than our 6-10 record. And every opportunity that we're gonna be given this year, we've got to compete. I don't think it's fair to a veteran player to say that we're gonna worry about 2014 instead of 2011. London Fletcher deserves the opportunity to try and win every game we play, and that's what our organization is gonna focus on."

http://www.hogshaven.com/2011/5/10/2163535/to-rebuild-or-not-to-rebuild-the-dumbest-question-ever-asked-at

So Bruce Allen doesn't believe in rebuilding. That effectively answer's this debate for us. One of the central tenents of the Leonsis rebuilding plan is to be transparent with your intentions to the fan base. These guys must think we're morons.

Anyway, I disagree with the author's take that we're rebuilding because we had 12 draft picks this year. 8 of them were round five or later, that's not exactly a high % chance of infusing the roster with young talent. The Packers, Patriots, Cowboys, Giants, and Eagles draft 10+ times most years and they're not rebuilding organizations.

[KDawg]

http://www.hogshaven.com/2011/5/10/2163535/to-rebuild-or-not-to-rebuild-the-dumbest-question-ever-asked-at

So Bruce Allen doesn't believe in rebuilding. That effectively answer's this debate for us. One of the central tenents of the Leonsis rebuilding plan is to be transparent with your intentions to the fan base. These guys must think we're morons.

Anyway, I disagree with the author's take that we're rebuilding because we had 12 draft picks this year. 8 of them were round five or later, that's not exactly a high % chance of infusing the roster with young talent. The Packers, Patriots, Cowboys, Giants, and Eagles draft 10+ times most years and they're not rebuilding organizations.

Agreed, 100%. I think we're much closer to a rebuild than we have been... But no team trades youth for an old player (picks for McNabb) unless they're trying to win now.

Now, I see us stockpiling youth and cutting ties with vets, but Allen says we're not rebuilding. Either he thinks we're morons or there are some FA moves coming that we're not going to like.

---------- Post added May-10th-2011 at 12:47 PM ----------

I was actually thinking of non-QB FA signings.

Like who? I've tried to stay away from most of the FA drama (besides Young, I was suckered into that one)

[Going Commando]

How many coaches outright SAY that they're rebuilding?

It's the responsibility of the owner to make the direction of the organization clear and transparent to the fans. Take the Wizards, Capitals, and Nationals for instance. They have strong ownership and communicated a coherent plan of improvement to the fan base which has helped us stomach early losing. The Leonsis plan for rebuilding works. He pulled it off with the Capitals and now that fan base is stronger than ever. He's pulling it off with the Wizards as we speak and the Lerners are doing it with the Nats. Most fans of these teams actually feel good about their futures over the next few years.

In the NFL, Jim Schwartz and Martin Mayhew were immediately clear in what they were trying to accomplish from day one. Ditto for Tom Dmitroff and Mike Smith and Steve Spagnuolo and Bill Devaney, Rahim Morris and Mark Dominik. Fans aren't stupid. They will be patient through the bad times if they think you've got a sequential plan to improve that makes sense.

I take Allen at his word here. This FO is incoherent, muddied, opaque, whatever you want to call it. They're directionless, trending neither up nor down. I've got more or less the same feeling about them as I had about Gibbs 2.0 towards the end.

Snyder is a weak owner and the reason we're not rebuilding is his fault in the end. The owner sets the tone for the organization and hiring a couple of retreads to head the FO was not a decision conducive to rebuilding.

---------- Post added May-10th-2011 at 01:08 PM ----------

Agreed, 100%. I think we're much closer to a rebuild than we have been... But no team trades youth for an old player (picks for McNabb) unless they're trying to win now.

Now, I see us stockpiling youth and cutting ties with vets, but Allen says we're not rebuilding. Either he thinks we're morons or there are some FA moves coming that we're not going to like.

Perhaps this FO is trying to have their cake and eat it too. Rebuilding while trying to win now doesn't seem realistic to me. We're not good enough to retool.

Like who? I've tried to stay away from most of the FA drama (besides Young, I was suckered into that one)

Supposedly we've been interested in everyone from Davin Joseph, Ryan Harris, Sydney Rice, and Jonathan Joseph plus the QBs. If we actually go out and do all of that, we'll know the FOs intentions beyond a shadow of a doubt because that's like 5 or 6 starters added through FA this offeseason. I don't see anyway that can happen but Allen's talk worries me.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

In the NFL, Jim Schwartz and Martin Mayhew were immediately clear in what they were trying to accomplish from day one. Ditto for Tom Dmitroff and Mike Smith and Steve Spagnuolo and Bill Devaney, Rahim Morris and Mark Dominik. Fans aren't stupid. They will be patient through the bad times if they think you've got a sequential plan to improve that makes sense.

Can you cite where those NFL organizations came out and said that they were going to rebuild? Theoretically, I certainly agree with you when it comes to fans and how they'd handle a rebuild. I also agree that, ideally, NFL teams would be upfront with their intentions. I just am not aware of how the Lions, Bucs, Rams, and Falcons communicated their plans to the fan base.

[darrelgreenie]

SP-

Are there any moves they could make in FA that would/could cause you to change your stance that this is a rebuild?

Well its more complicated then that because player development is part of the trade off in FA, but that's another discussion.

Another question: If we sign VY how would that sit in terms of the rebuild plan?

I'm just trying to track this so I can pinpoint the moment you reach the re-build vs win now tipping point;)

SIP Does this have any effect on you:

Allen: “I don’t know what rebuild is. I think there’s an opportunity each week to do well in the NFL. Last year we had a chance to do better, we had a chance to do worse than our 6-10 record. And every opportunity that we’re gonna be given this year, we’ve got to compete. I don’t think it’s fair to a veteran player to say that we’re gonna worry about 2014 instead of 2011. London Fletcher deserves the opportunity to try to win every game we play, and that’s what our organization’s gonna focus on.”

[KDawg]

SIP Does this have any effect on you:

Allen: “I don’t know what rebuild is. I think there’s an opportunity each week to do well in the NFL. Last year we had a chance to do better, we had a chance to do worse than our 6-10 record. And every opportunity that we’re gonna be given this year, we’ve got to compete. I don’t think it’s fair to a veteran player to say that we’re gonna worry about 2014 instead of 2011. London Fletcher deserves the opportunity to try to win every game we play, and that’s what our organization’s gonna focus on.”

That's the quote we've been talking about in this thread.

[darrelgreenie]

That's the quote we've been talking about in this thread.

Yeah, but that post is directed toward SIP we've been having our own discussion.

[Oldfan]

...It's a shame we can't bring back Vinny and Zorn. Oldfan might become a fan again

You're talking out of your ass again.

[Conn]

You're talking out of your ass again.

:whoknows:

I went back and read the OP's of those 4 threads, and you found a way to be positive about much less competent leadership/coaching.

Unless you were talking about the "become a fan again" thing. I didn't take that to mean that you aren't a fan now....just that you don't like the Shanahan leadership.

[Oldfan]

:I went back and read the OP's of those 4 threads, and you found a way to be positive about much less competent leadership/coaching.

Unless you were talking about the "become a fan again" thing. I didn't take that to mean that you aren't a fan now....just that you don't like the Shanahan leadership.

You are reading those old threads with a "hindsight bias." At the time there seemed to be a plan in place that made complete sense. There was never anything wrong with the plan. The failure was in the execution and I didn't have a crystal ball to foresee that.

Everybody's an expert now in hindsight.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Everybody's an expert now in hindsight.

I bet you we go 6-10 last year.

[The Tris]

Agreed, 100%. I think we're much closer to a rebuild than we have been... But no team trades youth for an old player (picks for McNabb) unless they're trying to win now.

Now, I see us stockpiling youth and cutting ties with vets, but Allen says we're not rebuilding. Either he thinks we're morons or there are some FA moves coming that we're not going to like.

The problem is, we are discussing what they are doing half way through the offseason, before they have had a chance to tackle FA. (Well, we have already signed one veteran FA)

Like who? I've tried to stay away from most of the FA drama (besides Young, I was suckered into that one)

Supposedly we've been interested in everyone from Davin Joseph, Ryan Harris, Sydney Rice, and Jonathan Joseph plus the QBs. If we actually go out and do all of that, we'll know the FOs intentions beyond a shadow of a doubt because that's like 5 or 6 starters added through FA this offeseason. I don't see anyway that can happen but Allen's talk worries me.

I think Harris and D Joseph are far more likely than Rice and J Joseph, but thats just the marque names.

I would be shocked if we did not add a vet CB to compete opposite Barnes, as I would also not be shock to see us sign some defensive line help, as well as potentially a vet 4th/5th WR to challange the Kelly/Paul/Austin group.

Probably adding only 4 starters via FA (QB, Atogwe, Harris, and D Joseph or CB), but thats a heck of a lot of starters for a rebuilding team (not to mention taking reps away from young players we should be developing).

Can you cite where those NFL organizations came out and said that they were going to rebuild? Theoretically, I certainly agree with you when it comes to fans and how they'd handle a rebuild. I also agree that, ideally, NFL teams would be upfront with their intentions. I just am not aware of how the Lions, Bucs, Rams, and Falcons communicated their plans to the fan base.

This whole article is ****ing fantastic. I suggest a thorough read for all.

Lions, Martin Mayhew introductory press conference, Dec 2008: http://blog.mlive.com/highlightreel/2008/12/martin_mayhew_tom_lewand_press.html

Team President Tom Lewland: "Martin makes the final football decisions and we both report to Mr. Ford."

On if that includes the first pick in the NFL Draft and the hiring of the head coach:

MM: "Football decisions is everything involving football from free agency to the draft to trades. I certainly respect Tom's opinion and I certainly expect that we'll have a head coach I will also respect. I have the final say on all football decisions with input from others."

On how much Mayhew did that before and what he will be doing differently:

MM: "Before, I think my role and I think other people's role in the organization now will be implementing my plan. My role before was implementing somebody else's plan. I made recommendations, I made suggestions. Ultimately, the people who made decisions were the ones who were paid to make those decisions."

On Mayhew's philosophies and what his plan will be:

MM: "...But what I believe we need to be is a physical football team; I think we have to be a faster football team. Defensively, we have to get bigger; we're small - we're a small football team. We get out there and on plays - we might call the right defense and might have a free hitter in the hole and instead of 2nd-and-10 it's 2nd-and-6 because we're not big enough and we're not physical enough. So that's going to be part of our plan. I also think that we have to play smart. I was with Coach Gibbs in Washington and Coach Gibbs always said he wanted smart, tough guys and I believe in that. I believe when you've got smart guys with good character - good work ethic - and tough guys, those are the guys that I'm going to be looking to try to add to this team."

On what is the 'clear philosophy' and what is different about it from the old philosophy:

TL: "Well, I think Martin just outlined a lot of those points. I think Martin outlines the kind of team we want to build. The most important thing when you talk about the type of team you want: Martin said we need bigger players, we need tough and we need smart. Then that means you can't draft little, slow, less intelligent guys (laughing).

"What I'm saying is, if you have a philosophy, you draft and procure players to fit that philosophy and you don't deviate. Where teams get in trouble and where organizations get in trouble, is where they deviate from their core principles and their core philosophy. That's where the rubber meets the road. It's those teams that can be disciplined about their player personnel practices, their coaching decisions, their other organization decisions and make those decisions uniformly consistent with that philosophy. They give themselves the best chance to succeed. A great example of that, and I'll finish with this, is the Pittsburgh Steelers. They hired Mike Tomlin, who's a very good football coach. (He) came from (Minnesota) where he ran the defense that we were running here and they kept the '34' defense in Pittsburgh and Dick LeBeau continued on as the coordinator and I think they're second in the league this year in defense. And what that required Mike Tomlin to do, is adapt to that organizational philosophy and how clearly the Rooney's and others felt that he could do that. And when you have that kind of system in place, the next person that you draft, the next '34' outside linebacker-if they're going to let (Joey Porter) go to the Miami Dolphins, the next guy coming right behind him is the same type of player, and you build that depth of your organization and your team and you're not looking to change parts and fill holes on an annual basis."

On whether or not he thinks that they need to build this team through the draft:

MM: "Let me respond to something (asked) before. We will build this thing through the draft - okay. We're not going to be jumping out there in free agency and throwing 30 million bucks at somebody on the first day at midnight. I think they way to do it is through the draft and we do it through young guys and you develop your guys, and you spend time training your guys. You don't give up on your guys. You hang in there with them and a lot of the good organizations in this league - that's what those teams do."

On the different ways to build a team, such as the Miami Dolphins approach:

TL: "I think it's a little different because I think some of the free agents that the Dolphins signed on the first day were not necessarily big name free agents. They fit their scheme. That sometimes is done in the first year of a change. The Atlanta Falcons signed one big free agent in Michael (Turner), but they had an integrated targeted scouting process that allowed them to integrate their draft preparation with their free agency needs. So that's always an option, but the core principle is to build through the draft. It doesn't mean you don't add a free agent. I think you look at an extreme example of the Green Bay Packers who haven't signed a free agent outside of Charles Woodson when he was cut from the Raiders. They've drafted; they haven't made any big moves in the free agency periods. Those teams that regularly build through the draft still sign free agents, but it's done on a more targeted basis that is integrated with your college scouting."

What a refreshing approach. This is who we should have hired. Water under the bridge now.

But the questions still remain - what are the core principles of the Washington Redskins? What is the core philosophy of the Washington Redskins? What is the plan of the Washington Redskins?

Oh, and here is one more great read on Mayhew:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/22/sports/football/22combine.html?ref=sports "With First-Time General Manager, Lions Are Rebuilding From the Top"

When are we going to rebuild from the top, instead of retool?

[pimpumd]

This whole article is ****ing fantastic. I suggest a thorough read for all.

Lions, Martin Mayhew introductory press conference, Dec 2008: http://blog.mlive.com/highlightreel/2008/12/martin_mayhew_tom_lewand_press.html

What a refreshing approach. This is who we should have hired. Water under the bridge now.

I read both of the articles you cited and the only thing Mayhew really said was that they were going to build the team through the draft. Their team president (Tom Lewand) followed that up by saying that they would also sign free agents that fit their scheme. Not necessarily the highest-priced free agents, but ones that fit their scheme (Lewand also mentioned that free agency is often appropriate when there's been a coaching change). I was not able to locate anywhere in the articles where it they flat out said they were in 100% rebuild mode and not expecting to compete at the present time. I don't see how this is so much different than the Redskins current philosophy.

Here is a quote from Bruce Allen from February, 2010:

"If we can get a great player in a trade, there's no reason to pass that up. But right now, this team, we do need an infusion of youth into this team. We need some players that are going to be learning the system from year one under Coach Shanahan's staff, and that's exciting. Now, we don't have a third- and we don't have a sixth-[round draft pick] right now, so maybe on draft day we could move around to pick up some extra picks, because we do need an infusion of youth."

The need for an infusion of youth can only be accomplished through the draft, and clearly this last draft was a significant step in the direction of infusing the roster with youth. I don't see Mayhew's approach as any different from out current approach, so I guess I don't understand the comment that we should have hired him.