NFL Films on Sonny

[thebluefood]

Vince Lombardi said the Sonny was the best QB he had ever sween. So why did Allen treat him so badly? Purely for personality reasons.

While Allen was a great coach, he always struck me as a very petty person.

[Jimbo]

While Allen was a great coach, he always struck me as a very petty person.

He wasn't so much petty as he was a control freak. He wanted to control EVERYTHING around him but Sonny was one of those guys he couldn't control and that galled him. He probably would have traded Sonny if he thought he could get away with not getting run out of town covered in tar and feathers.

Geroge cut off his nose to spite his face when he banished Sonny from the sideline in Super Bowl VII. Had Sonny played that game, we win easily. Had Sonny been on the sidelines and able to talk to Billy, we'd have stood a much better chance.

[Annonymous Source]

TY for posting this video. It was a blast

[thebluefood]

He wasn't so much petty as he was a control freak. He wanted to control EVERYTHING around him but Sonny was one of those guys he couldn't control and that galled him. He probably would have traded Sonny if he thought he could get away with not getting run out of town covered in tar and feathers.

Geroge cut off his nose to spite his face when he banished Sonny from the sideline in Super Bowl VII. Had Sonny played that game, we win easily. Had Sonny been on the sidelines and able to talk to Billy, we'd have stood a much better chance.

Seems that throughout the history of the Redskins, we're on the cusp of complete domination and greatness; but someone, and usually someone affiliated with the organization, gets in our way or some kind of tragic accident occurs.

We may've been the team of the 1940s had George Preston Marshall not fired Ray Flaherty

We may've gone on to great things in the 1970s had Vince Lombardi lived or George Allen let Sonny play his way

The 1983 Redskins would've gone down as a top 5 all time Super Bowl era team had we not gotten blown out by the Raiders

The 2007 Redskins may've had a better season if Sean Taylor

1.) Didn't get hurt

2.) Wasn't murdered

It seems like even at our pinnacle, we're right at the threshold of greatness, but we're not quite able to walk to the other side.

Oh well. Perhaps someday

[Darth Tater]

Seems that throughout the history of the Redskins, we're on the cusp of complete domination and greatness; but someone, and usually someone affiliated with the organization, gets in our way or some kind of tragic accident occurs.

We may've been the team of the 1940s had George Preston Marshall not fired Ray Flaherty

We may've gone on to great things in the 1970s had Vince Lombardi lived or George Allen let Sonny play his way

The 1983 Redskins would've gone down as a top 5 all time Super Bowl era team had we not gotten blown out by the Raiders

The 2007 Redskins may've had a better season if Sean Taylor

1.) Didn't get hurt

2.) Wasn't murdered

It seems like even at our pinnacle, we're right at the threshold of greatness, but we're not quite able to walk to the other side.

Oh well. Perhaps someday

Thing is, Sonny would have been done and if GA was not who he was (the good and the bad), we would likely have just been a little better. I'd say what really hurt (given that this was the 70s) was Larry Brown's knee going out (though his toughness may have been why he was so good). From 1969-1972, there was no better RB in the NFL

[thebluefood]

Thing is, Sonny would have been done and if GA was not who he was (the good and the bad), we would likely have just been a little better. I'd say what really hurt (given that this was the 70s) was Larry Brown's knee going out (though his toughness may have been why he was so good). From 1969-1972, there was no better RB in the NFL

I heard that Larry Brown was in constant pain during his years with the Redskins. I know he was a very effective back and was a huge part of the Redskins offense, even with a pass happy quarterback like Sonny in the backfield.

You still have to wonder, though, how much different the Redskins would have been in the 1970s if Sonny (and Larry Brown) had stayed healthy and our offense didn't play so conservatively. I can't imagine we would've had a decade long reign like the Steelers (since the Redskins were a very old team) but at least the early part of the 1970s would've been a completely different story.

[Enzo]

Let's get something straight teams win championships. Bart Starr won championships because he had great coaching & a great team; The Dolphins won championships for the same reasons; Roger Staubach won championships for the same reasons; the same thing can be said for Bradshaw, Theisman, Brady. Lets take what most of the media would consider the current eras best QB Tom Brady. Does anybody in their right mind believe that he would have all those Super Bowl rings if he had played his whole career for the Redskins. Now lets take 2 QBs alot of us can remember Dan Marino & Joe Montana. Take Montana & put him on the Dolphins & then take Marino & put him on the 49ers, I'd be willing to bet that Marino would be the one with all the championship rings & Montana would have never made the NFLs top 100 greatest players much less be ranked the #1 player of all-time.

I've got few uncles, some of them are Redskins fans & a few are Cowboys fans, & all of them have told that if they had to put together an all-time team that Sonny Jurgensen would be their QB. Although I have to admit that 2 of them said he would be Staubach's back up but I believe that they are just being Cowboys homos, excuse me I mean homers, when they say that.

[pjfootballer]

I liked the part where Sonny said they wanted to change his throwing style. His reponse was, "why change it if I can already get the ball where it needs to be? What difference does it make how I throw it, as long as it gets there." I think we can say that alot of coaches try to change QBs throwing motion, when the throwing motion that they use got them here in the first place.

[Darth Tater]

Let's get something straight teams win championships. Bart Starr won championships because he had great coaching & a great team; The Dolphins won championships for the same reasons; Roger Staubach won championships for the same reasons; the same thing can be said for Bradshaw, Theisman, Brady. Lets take what most of the media would consider the current eras best QB Tom Brady. Does anybody in their right mind believe that he would have all those Super Bowl rings if he had played his whole career for the Redskins. Now lets take 2 QBs alot of us can remember Dan Marino & Joe Montana. Take Montana & put him on the Dolphins & then take Marino & put him on the 49ers, I'd be willing to bet that Marino would be the one with all the championship rings & Montana would have never made the NFLs top 100 greatest players much less be ranked the #1 player of all-time.

I've got few uncles, some of them are Redskins fans & a few are Cowboys fans, & all of them have told that if they had to put together an all-time team that Sonny Jurgensen would be their QB. Although I have to admit that 2 of them said he would be Staubach's back up but I believe that they are just being Cowboys homos, excuse me I mean homers, when they say that.

Don't know about Montana with the Dolphins. Shula did get the Dolphins to the SB without a QB and did a pretty good job with Bob Griese. What we call the WCO would be a lot different if it had been informed by Marino.

---------- Post added February-11th-2011 at 03:01 PM ----------

I liked the part where Sonny said they wanted to change his throwing style. His reponse was, "why change it if I can already get the ball where it needs to be? What difference does it make how I throw it, as long as it gets there." I think we can say that alot of coaches try to change QBs throwing motion, when the throwing motion that they use got them here in the first place.

In an article I read, Steve Young indicated he holds a similar view.

[Hokie_Skinz]

That was really fascinating. Being a younger Redskins fan I really missed out on some of the great ones. I have the privilege of working with 2 gentlemen in their 60's who both were season ticket holders back during the Jurgey era (One actually recalls going to Griffith Stadium as a boy) and they both say that Sonny was the best thrower they have ever seen.

I unfortunately only get to see Youtube clips of the old days, but it does seem that some critical element was always missing for Sonny. Most of the times he did not have the D to match the O, but often times it was poor coaching. The more I hear about him, the more I think George Allen was not a good coach. He did help the 'Skins be more competitive, just did too little with what he had. His modern equivalent would probably be Andy Reid, tons of talent...just falls short.

[Guest Spearfeather]

Let's get something straight teams win championships. Bart Starr won championships because he had great coaching & a great team; The Dolphins won championships for the same reasons; Roger Staubach won championships for the same reasons; the same thing can be said for Bradshaw, Theisman, Brady. Lets take what most of the media would consider the current eras best QB Tom Brady. Does anybody in their right mind believe that he would have all those Super Bowl rings if he had played his whole career for the Redskins. Now lets take 2 QBs alot of us can remember Dan Marino & Joe Montana. Take Montana & put him on the Dolphins & then take Marino & put him on the 49ers, I'd be willing to bet that Marino would be the one with all the championship rings & Montana would have never made the NFLs top 100 greatest players much less be ranked the #1 player of all-time.

I've got few uncles, some of them are Redskins fans & a few are Cowboys fans, & all of them have told that if they had to put together an all-time team that Sonny Jurgensen would be their QB. Although I have to admit that 2 of them said he would be Staubach's back up but I believe that they are just being Cowboys homos, excuse me I mean homers, when they say that.

This post is a complete train - wreck.

[Mark The Homer]

Great vid! Thank-you.

Most of the fans in DC were Jurgensen fans in 1971 as opposed to Kilmer fans.

I remember the game where he came in and threw the TD vs the Giants. He was on the sidelines as a back up wearing a ball cap. Kilmer got his bell rung. Sonny takes off his ball cap, puts on his helmet. Runs out onto the field for one play. Throws one pass. TOUCHDOWN.

Sonny trots back to the sidelines. Takes off his helmet. Puts on his ball cap. That was his lone contribution for the day.

A cherished memory from my childhood.

[Wyvern]

I think when you see both QBs passing, there's no doubt that Jurgensen is a more talented passer than Kilmer. That said, Kilmer was likely more coachable. Jurgensen tested the envelope against almost all his Redskin coaches and only one, Lombardi, really seems to have measured up. And considering all the years that Sonny 'didn't' have a coach ... it probably made Jurgensen look inward for his decisions, rather than from a coaching authority he didn't 'mesh' with.

Jurgensen's penchant for "pass first" didn't easily blend with Allen's insistance on a controlled game plan with heavy emphasis on the ground game, winning field position, good kicking, and a stifling defense. So these two were on a collision course.

Jurgenson's injuries allowed Allen to insert the more 'coachable' Kilmer, who really did maximize his potential in leading that team; he worked with the Allen game plan, because he'd do whatever gave the team the best chance to win. After the switch, I suspect Sonny was never afraid to speak his mind, so there probably were other clashes we didn't hear about. Probably didn't help to convince Allen to play Sonny more often.

And lest we forget, on November 21, 1971 Allen DID put in Sonny for Kilmer (who had been moving the team somewhat) in hopes of sparking the Redskins in a home-game against the Cowboys. The results weren't good: Sonny went about 9/16 for 76 yards, no TDs and 2 INTs. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/197111210was.htm and the team got shut out 13-0.

I'm sure that probably convinced Allen that Kilmer was the safer bet for winning the Allen way.. Remember that most football teams (including in college) around '71-72 were all about the run and defense. This was partly to do with trends, but also part had to do with what DBs were being allowed to do.

Bottom line: I think Jurgenson was a great HOF QB for the Skins, but was a bad fit for how a defensively minded coach wanted to pursue victory. I admire so many things about Jurgensen, and glad to see he's getting his recognition. I also sense the maverick in him, something that I see in very talented people who don't succeed getting into a position to leverage their talent.

However, to be truthful, I identify with the less-talented Kilmer, and his 'whatever it takes to win' toughness. Wobbly passing and all, he made those around him play better and tougher.

Lastly, regardless of the squabbles with Sonny, let's not understate how Allen really did turn the Redskins into a serious NFL championship contender. Rah-rah or not, he made them the 'team' and some of the philosophies we associate with the Redskins today.

[Mark The Homer]

Very nice post, Wyvern.

[Barney B]

-Years ago, I read a book called The Hidden Game of Football. It was an influential book - the first close inspection of the game from a statistical perspective. In that book, the authors made the claim that if Sonny had ever had a good defense around him, he'd have been widely considered to be the best QB to ever play, by far.

-When you think about how much the team improved during one season under Lombardi, it's no wonder Sonny talks about him like his own father.

-Looking back, I think Sonny saw a lot of himself in another "square peg" QB with a gifted arm who could never quite fit himself into a round hole - Jeff George. So it's no wonder Sonny advised Snyder to sign George. It was a mistake, but maybe an understandable mistake.

.

[pjfootballer]

In an article I read, Steve Young indicated he holds a similar view.

Bernie Kosar had the worst sidearm delivery in the history of the NFL. Somehow that allowed him to play for 15+ years.

Very nice post, Wyvern.

Yeah, I agree. But in regards to Sonny vs. Allen, I think we had alot of talent on offense to put up points. As soon as Sonny came in, the offense would move and score most of the time. I'd rather win games 31-7 (good scoring offense with Sonny and a great defense) allowing the defense to tee off on the other teams, then win 13-7 and sweat it out. But I understand the way football was played back then (tight defense, close to the vest). But it would have been nice to blow people out.