Oldfan Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 Let me throw out this question Mr. Oldfan. What is easy to obtain, the great team or the great QB?I think it is easier to get the great team than a great QB. They are fewer, but assembling the other players is easier because there is much more talent available. Meaning the QB is the most unique position on the field. Meaning that the LT can play guard or RT. The Center can play guard. Yes, some players can't, but you get my point. A WR can be a kick returner. I CB can play corner and at times LB possibly. However, a franchise QB is a franchise QB and cannot be substituted. So, in a way, it is all about the QB. Let me see. On a college team, they have five O-lineman and one QB. An NFL team needs five lineman and one QB, so that fact that linemen selected can play different positions doesn't make them easier to find than QBs since you still need five, no matter how you cut it.However, the most serious flaw in your reasoning is that you talk about a "great QB" and a "franchise QB' and you don't have an intelligent way to define those terms. For example, as a Tampa Bay Bucs fan in 1985 and 1986, how could you have possibly known that Steve Young had the potential to be the QB of a dynasty team? What you would have seen in Tampa is Young performing well below his potential due to a weak supporting cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HigSkin Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Which team struggles more this weekend if the QB plays poorly or average? Jets - Sanchez Steelers - Big Ben Packers - Rodgers Bears - Cutler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveakl Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Steelers are a great example of what a franchise QB can do for you. Going from Cowher on: 115-76 8/12 making the playoffs, no SB wins With Ben: 77-35 5/7 making the playoffs 2 SB wins So while it is now always about the QB to be a consistent winning team, it does seem to be about the QB if you want to win the big games. ---------- Post added January-21st-2011 at 07:32 PM ---------- Let me see. On a college team, they have five O-lineman and one QB. An NFL team needs five lineman and one QB, so that fact that linemen selected can play different positions doesn't make them easier to find than QBs since you still need five, no matter how you cut it.However, the most serious flaw in your reasoning is that you talk about a "great QB" and a "franchise QB' and you don't have an intelligent way to define those terms. For example, as a Tampa Bay Bucs fan in 1985 and 1986, how could you have possibly known that Steve Young had the potential to be the QB of a dynasty team? What you would have seen in Tampa is Young performing well below his potential due to a weak supporting cast. It is much easier to cover up 1 O-Lineman (or two for that matter) then to cover up the poor play of a QB. You keep citing Steve Young as your example. I would like to see you show more then one or two players to prove these are not outliers that fit your specific model which may be wrong (as any good researcher proposing a theory would do) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 Which team struggles more this weekend if the QB plays poorly or average?Jets - Sanchez Steelers - Big Ben Packers - Rodgers Bears - Cutler Green Bay -- because all four teams have top notch defenses, but GB sucks on special teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveakl Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Green Bay -- because all four teams have top notch defenses, but GB sucks on special teams. Why do you think GB is that bad on ST? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsCrushCowboys Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Which team struggles more this weekend if the QB plays poorly or average?Jets - Sanchez Steelers - Big Ben Packers - Rodgers Bears - Cutler one of the two that the Redskins beat this year..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPCreativelab Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Which team struggles more this weekend if the QB plays poorly or average?Jets - Sanchez Steelers - Big Ben Packers - Rodgers Bears - Cutler Bears by a mile. If Cutler starts throwin picks and getting sacked, it can be the Giants game for them all over again, no matter how stout that defense is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HigSkin Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Green Bay -- because all four teams have top notch defenses, but GB sucks on special teams. And...has struggled running the ball. So, using your theory as described on post #1 (yes, I did read it! ) how would you rate Aaron Rodgers success or failure based on his surrounding cast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 ... You keep citing Steve Young as your example. I would like to see you show more then one or two players to prove these are not outliers that fit your specific model which may be wrong (as any good researcher proposing a theory would do)I'm not presenting a theory. I'm making a measurement of a QB's supporting system. The best way to make that measurement is by taking a QB who started for the worst team in the league and the best team in the league. Only one QB has done that. Now, you might argue that the 70.6% difference can't be trusted for precise accuracy since it is just a single instance. I'm willing to concede that. However, in order to argue that this single measurement is useless, you will need to offer another cause for the huge difference as credible as "better team support." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikie Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Steelers are a great example of what a franchise QB can do for you.Going from Cowher on: 115-76 8/12 making the playoffs, no SB wins With Ben: 77-35 5/7 making the playoffs 2 SB wins cowher is an interesting person to quote in a QB debate. with all his experience and success, he has gone on record as saying he would not return to coaching unless the team had an established franchise QB...he got close with slash, with macdonnel, and maddox, but he only won it when they got big ben. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 ...So, using your theory as described on post #1 (yes, I did read it! ) You read it? Jesus. That thrill me so much, I'm ready to concede any point you want to make....how would you rate Aaron Rodgers success or failure based on his surrounding cast?I like Rodgers a lot. He's not as talented as Jay Cutler, but he's right up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPCreativelab Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I'm not presenting a theory. I'm making a measurement of a QB's supporting system. The best way to make that measurement is by taking a QB who started for the worst team in the league and the best team in the league. Only one QB has done that. Now, you might argue that the 70.6% difference can't be trusted for precise accuracy since it is just a single instance. I'm willing to concede that. However, in order to argue that this single measurement is useless, you will need to offer another cause for the huge difference as credible as "better team support." umm, well, hmmmm.....cause he is Mormon? thats all i got... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 cowher is an interesting person to quote in a QB debate. with all his experience and success, he has gone on record as saying he would not return to coaching unless the team had an established franchise QB...he got close with slash, with macdonnel, and maddox, but he only won it when they got big ben.Cowher didn't want to draft Big Ben. Rooney had to break the tie between Cowher and his GM.---------- Post added January-21st-2011 at 03:04 PM ---------- umm, well, hmmmm.....cause he is Mormon?thats all i got... Gold Star for creativity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikie Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Cowher didn't want to draft Big Ben. Rooney had to break the tie between Cowher and his GM.---------- Post added January-21st-2011 at 03:04 PM ---------- Gold Star for creativity. regardless of cowher's ability to evaluate college QBs, once he had a really good QB in place, he realized and has said repeatedly, it is the single most important thing on a team, so much so that he wouldn't want to return to coaching unless there was already one in place (perhaps conceding his inability to evaluate future franchise QBs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsNumberOne Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 However, the most serious flaw in your reasoning is that you talk about a "great QB" and a "franchise QB' and you don't have an intelligent way to define those terms. For example, as a Tampa Bay Bucs fan in 1985 and 1986, how could you have possibly known that Steve Young had the potential to be the QB of a dynasty team? What you would have seen in Tampa is Young performing well below his potential due to a weak supporting cast. These stats may have helped you make that realization: "A practicing Mormon, Young played his college football at Brigham Young University (Young is also a direct descendant of Brigham himself). He struggled at first to establish himself as a quarterback, and BYU considered switching Young to defense. He worked very hard and ended up starting at QB for three outstanding years, finishing second in the Heisman race and earning First Team All-American honors his senior year. Young finished his career in 1983 with 7,733 passing yards, 56 passing touchdowns, 1,048 rushing yards, and 18 rushing touchdowns." (http://www.sporthaven.com/players/steve-young/) Anyway, for what it's worth, I also agree that while the QB is the most important position in football - the single position capable of having the most effect - it's also a position with a value that gets overestimated frequently (by fans and the media perhaps, anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 regardless of cowher's ability to evaluate college QBs, once he had a really good QB in place, he realized and has said repeatedly, it is the single most important thing on a team, so much so that he wouldn't want to return to coaching unless there was already one in place (perhaps conceding his inability to evaluate future franchise QBs).Cowher also says that "dee-fense wins championships." So, which is it, Bill, quarterbacks or dee -- fense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikie Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Cowher also says that "dee-fense wins championships." So, which is it, Bill, quarterbacks or dee -- fense? well, he's on once a week on the sirius show "moving the chains" and I've heard him mention countless times the importance of a franchise QB and how hard it is to win a championship, and factoring in all the years he had the #1 defense in the league and didn't win the championship, until he had what he considered a franchise QB, then it would be my opinion that he feels the QB is the most important thing... and on that note, always a pleasure, OF, thanks for the responses and enjoy the games this weekend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 ... and on that note, always a pleasure, OF, thanks for the responses and enjoy the games this weekend...Backatcha, glad you dropped by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucaro Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 You saw the Steve Young stats in the OP. Steve is a HOF quarterback. Do you think he would have made it had he not been traded to the 49ers. Of course not.These QBs that you list as the elite. Do you think they'd be on your list if they had played for teams that gave them little support? No, they wouldn't be on the SB list necesarrily but they would still be HoF QB's. Just like Marino was, Kelly was, Elway would have been had he not won the two at the end, etc. I personally believe Young was a HoF QB because of whom he played with unlike the list of guys above and my list of recent guys who are HoF guys with good complimentary players (minus Big Ben in his first SB it was all the Pitt D). And, of course there are some QB's who's stats are inflated because of how great a team they are on, my two guys would be Young and Aikman but you can't take anything away from what the all QB's are doing and you really can't take anything away even from those guys because we frankly don't know what would have happened. The bottom line is, if QB wasn't vital, you would see more teams in the SB each year without HoF QB's like Raven's v. Giants 10 or so years ago. But, looking back a long time, the predominent theme is that far more often than not, a future HoF QB is in the SB and that is because they do the little things at the end of the game that your "stats" don't capture. The game winning drives, the 3rd down completion to ice the game, the play with their feet to juke a lineman and complete a pass no one thought they could etc. They get it done when it counts and until you find me a stat that shows that, I will never truly buy into a statistical argument on QB play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PorkSkins Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Defense has won more championships. There have been a lot of high flying aerial attacks sitting at home during SB weekend. Defense and a good running attack control a game. Running the ball gives you better clock management and less turnovers -especially in inclimate weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 ...They [great QBs] get it done when it counts and until you find me a stat that shows that, I will never truly buy into a statistical argument on QB play How about if I explain why it SEEMS like some QBs "get it done when it counts?" Bill Walsh's 49ers were a dynasty. If we were to examine their stats for their 10-year run, or how ever long it was, and compare them to those of ordinary teams, they would be superior in almost every statistic. If we were to pull out the stat for drive success, we would find them superior on any drive we examine, the first drive, the third, the fifth... Those who believe in the myth of the Almighty Quarterback believe that Joe Montana was magnificent when it mattered most -- in the final drive of the game. The fact is that the Niners were superior in the final drive, the first drive, the fifth drive, and any drive you name. ---------- Post added January-21st-2011 at 07:37 PM ---------- Defense has won more championships...Another myth for another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Jones Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Those who believe in the myth of the Almighty Quarterback believe that Joe Montana was magnificent when it mattered most -- in the final drive of the game. The fact is that the Niners were superior in the final drive, the first drive, the fifth drive, and any drive you name. ---------- Post added January-21st-2011 at 07:37 PM ---------- So, all QB's on the roster when SS was here could have gone back in time and won SB's in the Niner system? I mean, the Niners were good on any drive and their system was better than any QB then any QB could be inserted into said system and win because the Almighty QB simply manages the great system and it's great surrounding players. Yeah, that makes sense to me because I agree that the surrounding players and the Walsh system would make Danny W. a pro bowl QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 ...So, all QB's on the roster when SS was here could have gone back in time and won SB's in the Niner system?..This is called a strawman argument. This poster couldn't attack my position, so he created a position for me (the strawman) that he could easily knock down. It's a cheap debating trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 This is called a strawman argument. This poster couldn't attack my position, so he created a position for me (the strawman) that he could easily knock down. It's a cheap debating trick. Kind of like your thread title? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveakl Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Oldfan: Still waiting for you to address the following: Steelers are a great example of what a franchise QB can do for you. Going from Cowher on: 115-76 8/12 making the playoffs, no SB wins With Ben: 77-35 5/7 making the playoffs 2 SB wins So while it is now always about the QB to be a consistent winning team, it does seem to be about the QB if you want to win the big games. ---------------------------------- Why do you think GB is that bad on ST? ---------------------------------- "However, in order to argue that this single measurement is useless, you will need to offer another cause for the huge difference as credible as "better team support." I did, post #59 --------------------------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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