CSN Washington/Rotoworld: Andre Carter moving back to Defensive End

[pjfootballer]

as far as I understand it, we are using him as a DE only in nickle and dime (4-3) packages, so he is not in the game when we have the 3-4 base in...

this drives me insane because it's just another piece of evidence that WE CAN'T RUN THE 3-4 now!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so carter and AH are at their natural positions and playing better than ever, but we aren't starting them because we stubbornly are trying to crowbar a 3-4 defense into 4-3 personnel...

I have no issue with a transition to a 3-4, but I can not for the life of me understand why we have to run it when we don't have the roster yet to implement it...

bill belichick (one of the innovators of the 3-4) came to NE and put in a 3-4, then realized he could not run it, switch back to the 4-3, drafted 3-4 linemen in the first round in 3 consecutive drafts, and then ran the 3-4....learn from him...

I guess because it made no sense to not implement it if we aren't going to contend for a title. Might as well have some of the players that will stick around get used to it, so when we do get the rest of the players suited for it, they will have mastered it.

[KDawg]

Shanahan believed he had the perfect size and athletic ability to play the position. Once again, he failed miserably in evaluating defense. Just as I feared.

Agreed.

When we got rid of Blache, I thought it would be end of trying to "mold" players to a specific scheme instead of using the players' strength to build schemes. It one has a particular scheme in mind, that should be a goal to work toward in drafts/offseason signings, not "molding." Hence, the Haynesworth debacle, Andre Carter, etc. One thing coaches can improve is technique in effecting turnovers, which they seem to have done. But changing a player who is suited/experienced in one style of play into something else is a recipe for disaster.

What about Haslett's history makes you believe he doesn't have a history of doing this? One example, and case in point: Carricker, Adam (St. Louis)

[Enter Apotheosis]

Why did this take so long?

I'm not trying to be an armchair GM or Coach, but why is it that some of the moves that Shanny has made, literally don't make rationale sense?

It didn't take this long. This move had essentially been made back when Lorenzo Alexander's playing time began to dramatically increase against Philadelphia a full five games ago.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a 3-4 defensive end nothing like the 4-3 version?

You are correct and, as has been stated by others in this thread, Carter has not and will not be used like a traditional 3-4 defensive end.

this drives me insane because it's just another piece of evidence that WE CAN'T RUN THE 3-4 now!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so carter and AH are at their natural positions and playing better than ever, but we aren't starting them because we stubbornly are trying to crowbar a 3-4 defense into 4-3 personnel...

I have no issue with a transition to a 3-4, but I can not for the life of me understand why we have to run it when we don't have the roster yet to implement it...

Carter clearly isn't a fit but Haynesworth is the kind of guy who seems to benefit from not being an every down player. Seeing the field primarily in goal line and nickel/dime situations is probably a good thing as far as he's concerned.

You also have to remember that despite these two guys not being good fits for our base defense, we do still have a whole bunch of players who are at least adequate in the 3-4 out there for us and our defense has been relatively successful on the whole. Could we be better running the 4-3 with all things equal? Maybe, maybe not. Personally, I don't think it really matters as much as ES thinks it does.

bill belichick (one of the innovators of the 3-4) came to NE and put in a 3-4, then realized he could not run it, switch back to the 4-3, drafted 3-4 linemen in the first round in 3 consecutive drafts, and then ran the 3-4....learn from him...

Belichick may actually be one of the least innovative of the great 3-4 minds currently in the game. Dick LeBeau and Rex Ryan tend to represent the more creative types who continually add wrinkles to their fairly complex and varied schemes whereas Belichick is much more traditional in his approach, his genius really stemming from his game preparation and affinity for film study.

[polywog999]

It didn't take this long. This move had essentially been made back when Lorenzo Alexander's playing time began to dramatically increase against Philadelphia a full five games ago.

You are correct and, as has been stated by others in this thread, Carter has not and will not be used like a traditional 3-4 defensive end.

Carter clearly isn't a fit but Haynesworth is the kind of guy who seems to benefit from not being an every down player. Seeing the field primarily in goal line and nickel/dime situations is probably a good thing as far as he's concerned.

You also have to remember that despite these two guys not being good fits for our base defense, we do still have a whole bunch of players who are at least adequate in the 3-4 out there for us and our defense has been relatively successful on the whole. Could we be better running the 4-3 with all things equal? Maybe, maybe not. Personally, I don't think it really matters as much as ES thinks it does.

Belichick may actually be one of the least innovative of the great 3-4 minds currently in the game. Dick LeBeau and Rex Ryan tend to represent the more creative types who continually add wrinkles to their fairly complex and varied schemes whereas Belichick is much more traditional in his approach, his genius really stemming from his game preparation and affinity for film study.

Very good post. Well thought out and a fantastic analyses.

[NeckBone]

thank god, what a waste of talent

[Hitman#21]

The team plays base 3-4 35% of the time. This is a good move.

[Bang]

When we got rid of Blache, I thought it would be end of trying to "mold" players to a specific scheme instead of using the players' strength to build schemes. It one has a particular scheme in mind, that should be a goal to work toward in drafts/offseason signings, not "molding." Hence, the Haynesworth debacle, Andre Carter, etc. One thing coaches can improve is technique in effecting turnovers, which they seem to have done. But changing a player who is suited/experienced in one style of play into something else is a recipe for disaster.

With the spread offenses and passing game dominating the league, the 3-4 is the way to go.

And to switch to something so drastically different .. you have to rip it like a band aid. You can't gradually ease into it, because you're not going to get 11 players al at once that are ready for it for a few years. By doing this, you make the change, you see who can adapt, and then you build off of that.

But you don't throw out a better defensive scheme because coaches in the past didn't build for it.

~Bang

[bedlamVR]

With the spread offenses and passing game dominating the league, the 3-4 is the way to go.

And to switch to something so drastically different .. you have to rip it like a band aid. You can't gradually ease into it, because you're not going to get 11 players al at once that are ready for it for a few years. By doing this, you make the change, you see who can adapt, and then you build off of that.

But you don't throw out a better defensive scheme because coaches in the past didn't build for it.

~Bang

Round peg square hole ... We really need to use our resources better ....

No I am not talking about AC here (though it is a shame he couldnt have transitioned better)

I am talking about Bang .... yeah yeah you may be yunking it up will all this voice of reason posting and I have to say I pretty much agree with what you say especially about the change to the 3-4 but what really worries me is all this posting there is less time for your cartoons ... i mean come on man ... where are your prioritiesman ?!>!! ...STOP POSTING ..BACK TO WORK ... speaking of which ...doh

[cphil006]

Didn't the Andre Carter experiment as an OLB in the 3-4 fail in San Fran? Why did we redo it?

[SirClintonPortis]

With the spread offenses and passing game dominating the league, the 3-4 is the way to go.

And to switch to something so drastically different .. you have to rip it like a band aid. You can't gradually ease into it, because you're not going to get 11 players al at once that are ready for it for a few years. By doing this, you make the change, you see who can adapt, and then you build off of that.

But you don't throw out a better defensive scheme because coaches in the past didn't build for it.

~Bang

Oh, yet the Giants have become dominating once again with their deadly 4-3 D-line.

[Sweet Sassy Molassy]

I hope some of you realize that basing your defense around 30+ year old players is typically not a good idea. Guys like Alexander, Orakpo, Wilson, Carriker among others being younger guys can our D can build around being pretty well-suited for the 3-4 defense means you build the D to their strengths. Carter was a bad fit from the start, we all knew that, the staff was hoping he would fare better this time around, but he hasn't, I do like the fact that instead of forcing him into the OLB position even if he didn't work, they were smart enough to find a way to utilize him more effectively, and he's played much better in the games that they've let him do what he does best.

[SirClintonPortis]

I hope some of you realize that basing your defense around 30+ year old players is typically not a good idea. Guys like Alexander, Orakpo, Wilson, Carriker among others being younger guys can our D can build around being pretty well-suited for the 3-4 defense means you build the D to their strengths. Carter was a bad fit from the start, we all knew that, the staff was hoping he would fare better this time around, but he hasn't, I do like the fact that instead of forcing him into the OLB position even if he didn't work, they were smart enough to find a way to utilize him more effectively, and he's played much better in the games that they've let him do what he does best.

That's if they're INEFFECTIVE. Carter had a good season last year. Jarmon was developing behind him and likely would have taken over. Hell, we could have drafted Nate Allen or Lamarr Houston(thus making losing Carter even MORE BEARABLE) with the pick we gave up for McNabb.