The Haslett Files (Greg Blache vs. Jim Haslett, Historically bad defensive pace, etc.)

[Ryman of the North]

wow. OK a few points

Kdawg did a good job showing you guys the fallacy that this defence is somehow more effective than blaches was.

The ONLY improvement that can be seen is actually something that Haslett has been known for, he has been known as a players coach for his whole career. He has done a great job motivating and getting guys to bust ass, what he has not done is put them in good positions.

His scheme is unsound, someone who was trying to defend haslett said something very important. "haslett isnt the one dropping the ball" no he is not, he is the one putting guys known for dropping the ball in positions where dropping the ball kills you (bend but dont break style defence).

The truth is very simple as I have said from day one of this idiotic change to a scheme that doesnt fit us, WE DONT HAVE THE RIGHT PLAYERS TO MAKE THIS CHANGE WORTHWHILE FOR AT LEAST 3 SEASONS.

I dont understand whats so hard to understand about that?

No nosetackle (to the guys who said we had Kemo AFTER I brought up that achilles injuries take at least 2 years if a guy can even come back from one, who was right?

No banger at ILB to fill holes and MAKE TACKLES AT OR NEAR THE LOS. Macintosh and Fletch are both ill suited for this, yeah they have piles of tackles and not many for losses.

No effective two gap DE who can still make plays

No OLB who can actually cover for more than short bursts.

I had a bit of hope after the eagles game, we started running more 40 fronts, used Carter as a DE and Lorenzo at OLB more, but against the Colts that "amoeba" defence was a joke there is a reason that NOBODY uses it.

the truth is very simple, this scheme is a bad scheme, its not the steelers scheme btw no more than Blaches scheme was the vikings.

[DieselPwr44]

GW first year, Redskins ranked 3rd, finish 6-10 but that was due to an inept offense led by Brunell. .

This right here is exactly why the whole "It's a new system/scheme and the players need time to adjust" excuse is a bunch of horse hockey.

Gregg Willaims did more with less talent his first season here. Haslett pales in comparison.

Wish we had a real DC..........

[Mahons21]

Kdawg did a good job showing you guys the fallacy that this defence is somehow more effective than blaches was.

Cherry picking particular stats does not prove a point.

The ONLY improvement that can be seen is actually something that Haslett has been known for, he has been known as a players coach for his whole career. He has done a great job motivating and getting guys to bust ass, what he has not done is put them in good positions.

So turnovers haven't improved? You know those little plays that change the outcomes of games. Landry's pick in GB game, Hall's strip and TD in the Dallas game. Since apparently you didn't notice, they've improved dramatically.

What is important is, the fact that we give up yards that lead to opponents punting/missing FG, that is what's really important.

His scheme is unsound, someone who was trying to defend haslett said something very important. "haslett isnt the one dropping the ball" no he is not, he is the one putting guys known for dropping the ball in positions where dropping the ball kills you (bend but dont break style defence).

This is a joke right? Haslett has our best cover corner in man, stupid Haslett, he needs to know that Carlos can't catch so he should just put him on the line.

Puts our FS in cover 2, ball drops right in front of him, he can't make a play because he got turned around by the WR for no reason. Few quarters earlier, we're in cover 2 man, Peyton sails one and it hits our FS in the chest, silly Haslett needs to know Kareem Moore who has shown the ability to make a catch, can't play out there... Do you even watch these games?

I had a bit of hope after the eagles game, we started running more 40 fronts, used Carter as a DE and Lorenzo at OLB more, but against the Colts that "amoeba" defence was a joke there is a reason that NOBODY uses it.

We played in 40 fronts against the Colts almost the entire game....

With Carter at DE....

The Amoeba defense confused Manning more than he's been confused in awhile...

We got run on because we played in dime pkg all game, since Clark is so amazing he requires a corner to be covered

the truth is very simple, this scheme is a bad scheme, its not the steelers scheme btw no more than Blaches scheme was the vikings.

The truth is, you've had it out for this FO since their arrival, before the season started you acted as if we were going to repeart 4-12. We're not as bad as you predicted, and our defense is much better than you give them credit for, and this is after facing how many of the top offenses in the league? Colts/Cowboys/Packers/Houston ... maybe spend more time watching the game and less time mindlessly posting

[No Excuses]

This defense will get better when it has better 3-4 players. The long term potential is much better than that off anything Blache ever ran. I'll take growing pains now if it means in 3 years we have a defense that is this physical and capable of stopping offenses.

[Ryman of the North]

Cherry picking particular stats does not prove a point.

So turnovers haven't improved? You know those little plays that change the outcomes of games. Landry's pick in GB game, Hall's strip and TD in the Dallas game. Since apparently you didn't notice, they've improved dramatically.

What is important is, the fact that we give up yards that lead to opponents punting/missing FG, that is what's really important.

This is a joke right? Haslett has our best cover corner in man, stupid Haslett, he needs to know that Carlos can't catch so he should just put him on the line.

Puts our FS in cover 2, ball drops right in front of him, he can't make a play because he got turned around by the WR for no reason. Few quarters earlier, we're in cover 2 man, Peyton sails one and it hits our FS in the chest, silly Haslett needs to know Kareem Moore who has shown the ability to make a catch, can't play out there... Do you even watch these games?

We played in 40 fronts against the Colts almost the entire game....

With Carter at DE....

The Amoeba defense confused Manning more than he's been confused in awhile...

We got run on because we played in dime pkg all game, since Clark is so amazing he requires a corner to be covered

The truth is, you've had it out for this FO since their arrival, before the season started you acted as if we were going to repeart 4-12. We're not as bad as you predicted, and our defense is much better than you give them credit for, and this is after facing how many of the top offenses in the league? Colts/Cowboys/Packers/Houston ... maybe spend more time watching the game and less time mindlessly posting

Mahons 21 are we watching the same games?

1-no this defence is not even remotely close to as good as last years, I hate to break it to you but we dont have that many turnovers and in relation to the most important stat POINTS AGAINST, we have been far more lucky than good.

2-you might want to gamble on teams missing Fgs I dont, if we were blocking FGs maybe that would hold water but we arent so it doesnt.

3-a good DC schemes around his players strengths, ie not putting carter at OLB ever, not putting Hall in press man or deep zones, not putting a SS man up on the best WR in the nfl, those sorts of things. the ONLY good thing haslett has done is get these guys to play with more emotion and move landry to SS.

4-we put Carter back at DE and no we didnt run a four man front, we ran some stupid gimmick amoeba defence that works in high school maybe but not in the NFL. what the hell game were you watching? the colts moved the ball easily and scored easily, again we shouldnt be depending on other teams to screw up.

the truth is you will defend this garbage defence despite all the evidence to the contrary because you simply dont know any better.

This defence helped make some of those offences the top offences in the league ffs, we cant stop anyone. spend more time thinking and less time arguing with your betters.

[Ryman of the North]

This defense will get better when it has better 3-4 players. The long term potential is much better than that off anything Blache ever ran. I'll take growing pains now if it means in 3 years we have a defense that is this physical and capable of stopping offenses.

you got the first part right, the second is debateable and I think wrong. but you got the last part right too, but do we want to wait 3 years when with some very simple tweaks we could have had that NOW?

[Oldfan]

The rankings of the stats geeks at Football Outsiders are still a work-in-progress but they are more intelligently done than the NFL stats and their rankings are objective. Objectivity is something that we need in this discussion.

They have our current defense ranked at #23. The 2009 team was ranked at #10.

They have the current team ranked at #24 against the pass. The 2009 team was ranked at #20.

They have this year's team ranked at #17 against the rush. The 2009 squad was ranked at #6.

[KDawg]

Mahons21,

Cherry picking stats? I used just about every stat available. How is that cherry picking?

[NewCliche21]

Mahons 21 are we watching the same games?

1-no this defence is not even remotely close to as good as last years, I hate to break it to you but we dont have that many turnovers and in relation to the most important stat POINTS AGAINST, we have been far more lucky than good.

What a failure of an argument. We've been more lucky than good? That doesn't work for a second.

I say that we've been more UNLUCKY in yards than bad. See how that argument works there?

We're 3-3. Get over it, people.

[KDawg]

What a failure of an argument. We've been more lucky than good? That doesn't work for a second.

I say that we've been more UNLUCKY in yards than bad. See how that argument works there?

We're 3-3. Get over it, people.

Is conversation not allowed, NewCliche? Yes, we're 3-3, but we're closer to 0-6 than we are 6-0. Now, you ready for this? Even though I'm not a Haslett fan, I feel our offense is still worse than our defense. McNabb, even though his rating blows, is doing things for us Campbell never could and is the primary reason our offense has any semblence of respectability, and even McNabb has looked mediocre to slightly below average at times. The offense is starting to turn the corner, the defense needs to stop allowing as many yards as they have. I've begun a little research project for the hell of it comparing Blache/Williams/Haslett's per game statistics for their career (not counting 2010) and their Redskin tenures, which admittedly is very short for Haslett, but I look to update those every few weeks to reflect time in the system.

[Kindred]

Let me start off by saying I'm not a Greg Blache fan, either. But there seems to be a lot of people saying that our team would be allowing a lot more scores under Blache. For starters, let's look at both of their Redskin tenures.

I realize Haslett is only 6 games into his job as the defensive coordinator in Washington, and it's pretty unfair to compare his stats to those of Greg Blache after six games, but I hear time and time again that Blache's defenses allowed points but not yards. So here's how the two stack up in that regard:

Greg Blache, 2008

Points: 6th

Yards: 4th

Passing Yards: 7th

Passing TD: 6th

INT: 17th

Rush Yards: 8th

Rush TD: 11th

TO: 28th

Let's compare that to Haslett's rankings thus far (again, I realize these are subject to change, this is just a rebuttal to all of those who believe Blache's defenses were worse than they were)

Haslett

Points: 14th

Yards: 32nd

Pass Yards: 31st

Pass TD: 19th

INT: 21st

Rush Yards: 24th

Rush TD: 9th

Fumble Recoveries: 3rd (can't find a total TO stat thus far)

So let's examine... We're worse in total points, worse in total yards, worse in pass yards, worse in pass TD, worse in INT, worse in rush yards, better in rush TD, probably better in turnovers.

But this doesn't hold up with the misconception that "this defense is better than anything Blache ever had".

That argument does not hold weight.

For the sake of it, we'll compare Blache's 2009 campaign with Haslett's 2010...

Blache 2009

Points: 18th

Yards: 10th

Pass Yards: 8th

Pass TD: 10th

INT: 26th

Rush Yards: 16th

Rush TD: 7th

TO: 32nd

We're better in points now, worse in yards, worse in pass yards, worse in pass TD, better in picks, worse in rush yards, worse in rush TD, better in turnovers.

Again, this doesn't spell out what plenty here seem to believe. Our defense is not better this year than it was under Blache as a whole.

Total Analysis

One thing that this defense is MUCH better at this year than it was the last two years is our physicality and turnover production. It's ridiculous how much better the Haslett defense is in comparison when speaking about these things. This defense also seems to have heart, the Blache defenses seemed to lack that killer instinct. I can honestly say that Haslett has done a great job in bringing Captial Punishment to DC.

But on a statistical point, from a yards and points production we're worse at this juncture, not better as many here have said.

Now, let me make something clear, I realize Haslett can turn around. This thread is in response to all of those who continually say that Blache's defenses would have allowed many more points. I completely disagree, and on top of that, Blache's defenses had a much worse offense to work with than what we have now. At this point, and it is still early, Blache's defenses looked better than this Haslett defense.

I am by no means saying I want Blache back, I want to make that clear as well. I just don't think people realize exactly what it is they're saying.

To take it another step further, I went ahead and averaged their career NFL averages in each of the statistics that I've been looking at:

Haslett = bold numbers

Blache = italic numbers

Points: 21, 16

Yards: 18, 16.14

Passing Yards: 15, 18.14

Passing TD: 16.91, 14.14

INT: 16.33, 20.85

Rushing Yards: 20.58. 15.71

Rushing TD: 19.58, 12.28

Turnovers: 13, 21.28

Career Analysis:

Seems to be a pretty common trend to what we're seeing right now, at the moment. Haslett's D's are much better in the turnover department, while Blache's are better in the points and yards departments as a whole. These career numbers do not have Haslett's current Redskin numbers figured into them, either.

It seems obvious that Haslett is going to produce a much more aggressive, physical defense and Blache is going to produce a much better defense from a yards/points point of view, but not be as relentless.

I like the relentless defense. It's the way I coach and what I prefer to see on the field. But the production thus far has been sub standard and pretty much bad.

Now, looking at both sets of career numbers, I'll say it again, neither guy is who I'd want to be our defensive coordinator. I just did this research and thought that this would be shocking to some. I didn't realize just how crazy the differences were, either.

*yawn* Get back to me after we a) learn the system for a season or 2 and find the necessary personnel to fit our system.

[Oldfan]

Is conversation not allowed, NewCliche? Yes, we're 3-3, but we're closer to 0-6 than we are 6-0. Now, you ready for this? Even though I'm not a Haslett fan, I feel our offense is still worse than our defense. McNabb, even though his rating blows, is doing things for us Campbell never could and is the primary reason our offense has any semblence of respectability, and even McNabb has looked mediocre to slightly below average at times. The offense is starting to turn the corner, the defense needs to stop allowing as many yards as they have. I've begun a little research project for the hell of it comparing Blache/Williams/Haslett's per game statistics for their career (not counting 2010) and their Redskin tenures, which admittedly is very short for Haslett, but I look to update those every few weeks to reflect time in the system.

I agree that our offense is still worse than our defense. mainly because we had more talent on the defense than on the offense coming into this season. While the talent level has been improved on the offense, the improvement hasn't been substantial. Meanwhile, the defense has regressed, probably because of the misfit pieces.

I think Shanahan has outcoached his opponent in a couple of close wins. He didn't make strategic errors like McCarthy and Phillips.

[KDawg]

*yawn* Get back to me after we a) learn the system for a season or 2 and find the necessary personnel to fit our system.

Yawn? If the conversation bores you, do yourself and everyone else who is enjoying the conversation or partaking in it with some kind of quality response a favor by not entering the thread. Thanks.

[Beans]

I miss leading the league in 3 and outs. In 2008, the Skins had the best defense in the NFL. I don't care what anybody says. When a woeful offense like Zorn's leaves you out to dry that many times, and still getting the 3 and out, time and time again, speaks volumes. Haslett is showing us why he was in the UFL. Shanahan also hasn't done jack since winning the Superbowl with Dan Reeves' team. Color me unimpressed.

[Kindred]

Yawn? If the conversation bores you, do yourself and everyone else who is enjoying the conversation or partaking in it with some kind of quality response a favor by not entering the thread. Thanks.

This blather is premature and the stats are not statistically significant yet. You are basically taking the stats of an outlier season and trying to form an opinion based on them. So yes this is a fairly meaningless thread. At this point you could infer that our players dont fully know the systems yet or you could infer that we dont have all the right personnel.

[Oldfan]

This blather is premature and the stats are not statistically significant yet. You are basically taking the stats of an outlier season and trying to form an opinion based on them. So yes this is a fairly meaningless thread. At this point you could infer that our players dont fully know the systems yet or you could infer that we dont have all the right personnel.

Did you read the OP? KDawg was countering claims made in this forum based on the same sample size that you claim is statistically insignificant.

By the way, I think we're talking about 430 plays which is a fair-size sample of a season.

[Mahons21]

Kdawg

I believe, I used the wrong word when claiming you "cherry-picked" the statistics. Here are my beefs with this thread.

1) Key statistic left out, 3rd down pct.

2010: 35%

2009: 40%

5% is quite a big difference

2.) Haslett's sample is against 66% of teams in the top 10, and please don't tell me it's because those offenses have played against us. The only teams who scored more pts than they averaged against their other opponents, are the Texans and Rams. The Texans game went into OT and would only be 2 pts above their league average sans Redskins game, if they don't get that FG in OT. The Rams was the other game and that isn't relevant here because either way they aren't a top 10 offense.

Blache's sample is against less than 33% of opponents in the top 10.

Another big difference

3.) You didn't actually compare the two teams statistics side by side, you compared how the teams ranked against the NFL side by side.

Ppg allowed:

2009: 21

2010: 19.8

YPG allowed:

2009: 319

2010: 420

Turnovers:

2009: 17

2010: 11 through 6 games on pace for about 28

So even though we're allowing more yardage, against much stiffer opponents we're holding them to less pts, a lower 3rd down % and a creating more turnovers.

[KDawg]

Kdawg

I believe, I used the wrong word when claiming you "cherry-picked" the statistics. Here are my beefs with this thread.

1) Key statistic left out, 3rd down pct.

2010: 35%

2009: 40%

5% is quite a big difference

2.) Haslett's sample is against 66% of teams in the top 10, and please don't tell me it's because those offenses have played against us. The only teams who scored more pts than they averaged against their other opponents, are the Texans and Rams. The Texans game went into OT and would only be 2 pts above their league average sans Redskins game, if they don't get that FG in OT. The Rams was the other game and that isn't relevant here because either way they aren't a top 10 offense.

Blache's sample is against less than 33% of opponents in the top 10.

Another big difference

3.) You didn't actually compare the two teams statistics side by side, you compared how the teams ranked against the NFL side by side.

Ppg allowed:

2009: 21

2010: 19.8

YPG allowed:

2009: 319

2010: 420

Turnovers:

2009: 17

2010: 11 through 6 games on pace for about 28

So even though we're allowing more yardage, against much stiffer opponents we're holding them to less pts, a lower 3rd down % and a creating more turnovers.

Well then, you'll enjoy my next post which will come either tomorrow or Monday when I get a second to finish it. It compares Blache, Williams and Haslett side by side in per game statistics for their Redskin tenure and their careers (which won't include the 2010 data). It also inclues the offenses statistics in it as well. It will also be color coded to show you who has the best, worst and in the middle stat of the three for both career and Redskin tenure. I also plan on updating it a few times up until the end of the year to see what, if anything, changed.

[Mahons21]

I am interested in reading it for sure, as I am for all your threads. I know it takes time to pull up all these statistics, and it is appreciated.

However, I do think that the notion some ESers have that this team isn't giving up as many points as Blaches defense is correct, and the stats show that.

The problem is this years offense is also better at sustaining drives, and the impact of that cannot be measured.

[Mahons21]

Mahons 21 are we watching the same games?

-No, clearly you don't watch these games.

1-no this defence is not even remotely close to as good as last years, I hate to break it to you but we dont have that many turnovers and in relation to the most important stat POINTS AGAINST, we have been far more lucky than good.

-We've allowed less points against stiffer competition and are on pace to have 11 more turnovers...

2-you might want to gamble on teams missing Fgs I dont, if we were blocking FGs maybe that would hold water but we arent so it doesnt.

None of our opponents have missed an automatic FG. Missing 45+ yarders isn't luck, it's part of the game.

3-a good DC schemes around his players strengths, ie not putting carter at OLB ever, not putting Hall in press man or deep zones, not putting a SS man up on the best WR in the nfl, those sorts of things. the ONLY good thing haslett has done is get these guys to play with more emotion and move landry to SS.

Like Dick Lebeau and Bill Belichik?

This defence helped make some of those offences the top offences in the league ffs, we cant stop anyone. spend more time thinking and less time arguing with your betters.

Didn't I already show you that, we've held these teams to less pts than the rest of the NFL? other than the Texans. That means we've made their ranking worse chief, not better

[Oldfan]

The problem is this years offense is also better at sustaining drives, and the impact of that cannot be measured.

The impact can't be measured because your statement is false.

2010... Us 366 plays, opponents 430 ...TOP: Us 29.26, opponents 33.38

2009... Us 970 plays, opponents 1000 ..TOP: Us 29:00, opponents 31:23

2008... US 1026 plays, opponents 933 ..TOP: Us 31:30, opponents 28.29

[Mahons21]

The impact can't be measured because your statement is false.

2010... Us 366 plays, opponents 430 ...TOP: Us 29.26, opponents 33.38

2009... Us 970 plays, opponents 1000 ..TOP: Us 29:00, opponents 31:23

2008... US 1026 plays, opponents 933 ..TOP: Us 31:30, opponents 28.29

Well then this years defense is clearly better than last years. World beating, no. But better than last years.

[Ryman of the North]

This blather is premature and the stats are not statistically significant yet. You are basically taking the stats of an outlier season and trying to form an opinion based on them. So yes this is a fairly meaningless thread. At this point you could infer that our players dont fully know the systems yet or you could infer that we dont have all the right personnel.

actually Kdawg has been pretty balanced and has provided stats and reasons for his opinion beyond just opinions, so this is the part where you either contribute to the discussion or find another thread. I may not agree with everything Kdawg says but he at least provides opinions and back up without whining or being a dick.

[Ryman of the North]

we dont play the exact same teams with exactly the same personelle, the truth is that this team has looked inept a lot on defence, we skewed the stats a bit with some lucky big plays. This defence is not sound when run as haslett likes to run with several guys blitzing and soft zones. by the end of the season we should be better (god i hope so) but I will be curious to see if we run more intellgent formations and plays.

[Oldfan]

Well then this years defense is clearly better than last years. World beating, no. But better than last years.

I don't know how you came to that conclusion from those stats. All we can say is that this defense isn't being helped by a good ball control offense.