PFT:: Gradkowski, Campbell conundrum could spark a locker-room rift (MET)

[Mahons21]

Of McFadden's 123 rushing yards, 94 of them came in the 2nd half, 87 of which came on 2 carries, one of which was a JC audible, and he only had 29 rushing yards at halftime. Meanwhile JC had 204 yards at halftime. Could it be that JC's strong 1st half was what set up McFadden's strong 2nd half?

I see the point you're making, and agree with it in many cases, however maybe not this one. Yes, Campbell did have a great first half passing the ball, however he really only tested the defense mid-deep once or twice, which can help bring that 8th man out of the box, when done regularly. So while I can agree that the Jags D was certainly more focused on defending the pass in the 2nd half, I still have trouble giving Campbell much credit for it.

For example if we were to look at the Titans situation. Chris Johnson is obviously the catalyst to that offense, however when Rusty comes in the ball game CJ2k looks more like CJ1k, however when Young/Collins, average or below average QB's come in the game, than CJ can take off. Now do these QBs deserve the credit for getting CJ going? Or does CJ still deserve majority of the credit.

Similarly, when Campbell is playing well, it can help McFadden get going, but in the end McFadden is still is a sick RB. So who should really get most of the credit?

One way to decipher who deserves the credit would be to look at McFaddens stats throughout the season, and see if there's a fluctuation when different QBs are in the game. As well as Jason Campbell's statistics in games that McFadden/Bush didn't play very well. I've looked at the stats before and the led me to believe the rushing game does deserve most of the credit, but who knows., obviously there's tons of other factors that go into it.

Sorry if I completely misunderstood your point, coming to the end of this I realize you could have been implying that the score allowed the Raiders to rush the ball. Which I would disagree with.

[Late Night Roach]

Really, people? There's still arguing going on about Jason Campbell? Jason ******* Campbell? ******* insane.

:violin:

[Mahons21]

Really, people? There's still arguing going on about Jason Campbell? Jason ******* Campbell? ******* insane.

:violin:

I'd rather actually analyze some football then talk about the offseason BS in the stadium. A.) What will happen with McNabb, B.) "who can we get in free agency to make us competitive next year."

[HailGreen28]

Of McFadden's 123 rushing yards, 94 of them came in the 2nd half, 87 of which came on 2 carries, one of which was a JC audible, and he only had 29 rushing yards at halftime. Meanwhile JC had 204 yards at halftime. Could it be that JC's strong 1st half was what set up McFadden's strong 2nd half?

You didn't watch or don't remember the game. The Raiders were running the ball at least as much as they were passing. And that was what Jax was worried about, keeping guys in the box. As it turned out, McFadden still beat them for 60 on one play. A 2 yd pass, might as well have been a run.....

You would be blameing Campbell if it got dropped cant have it both ways

What both ways are you talking about?

In this case the QB audibled that play, so he does get credit, and yes, not giving credit would be hating.

I don't see you looking at a season's worth of stats for good QBs and saying "oh, but we have to take away some yards and a few TDs because of dump offs. I mean, should WRs get full credit for making a 2 yard TD catch? Should RBs get credit for a TD when the WR caught it and took it to the one, and then the RB carries it in the next play untouched?

Or we could simply credit the players, since they are credited in he stats category, instead of picking and choosing to suit our respective opinions.

I know it's a big step up for Candle, from last year where he wasn't even allowed to audible. But he's not calling plays out there. Candle did what most QBs do, made a prepared audible based on the defense expected. If you're basing credit on the audible, why don't we give Cable or the OC credit for that play? LOL. And again, reaching on a mediocre QB's performance, like a simple audible, and trying to say he's more than he is.

Actually, I agree with you about the stats. But when you talk about how the QB played, you can look at those stats were gained, even while the stats are important. This isn't baseball, if you know what I mean.

[Jumbo]

Really, people? There's still arguing going on about Jason Campbell? Jason ******* Campbell? ******* insane.

:violin:

It is extremely stupid. Which is a descriptor fitting 90% of all message board content.

[TheItalianStallion]

You didn't watch or don't remember the game. The Raiders were running the ball at least as much as they were passing. And that was what Jax was worried about, keeping guys in the box. As it turned out, McFadden still beat them for 60 on one play. A 2 yd pass, might as well have been a run.....

And yet they didn't have success doing it.

Didn't get to actually watch his game vs Denver today, though it appeared to be rather up-&-down and underwhelming.

[tiger187126]

another campbell start, another raider win.

go ahead and fill this with all the digital ink you want, it still doesn't change that campbell's doing a lot better than the people on this board thought he would.

in fact the only thing that changes are the excuses as to why.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

It is extremely stupid.)

Guilty as charged.

But in some macabre, masochistic way, there's a compelling pull to read and partake. Don't ask me why. As asinine as it all is, it just is, shrugs.

Hail.

[Mahons21]

another campbell start, another raider win.

go ahead and fill this with all the digital ink you want, it still doesn't change that campbell's doing a lot better than the people on this board thought he would.

in fact the only thing that changes are the excuses as to why.

Team win doesn't necessarily equal good play from the QB. Remember the Tampa Bay playoff game we won this decade.

The Oakland Raiders might be doing better than people had assumed, but Campbell has remained at the same level statistically speaking. I don't recall anyone saying he would get worse in Oakland, so I don't really say how you could make the claim he's doing "a lot better" than most people on this board thought he would last off season when we traded him.

TD:INT is still basically 4:3, he still fumbles a lot, he's still wildly inconsistent, but he'll still give you some flashes of brilliance that can get you really excited.

[Mahons21]

And yet they didn't have success doing it.

Didn't get to actually watch his game vs Denver today, though it appeared to be rather up-&-down and underwhelming.

It's called staying committed to the run. Raiders have shown they will remain committed to the run all season, hence the fact only the Jets/Jags/Chiefs average more att per game.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

another campbell start, another raider win.

go ahead and fill this with all the digital ink you want, it still doesn't change that campbell's doing a lot better than the people on this board thought he would.

in fact the only thing that changes are the excuses as to why.

And how, pray, is he doing a lot better than anyone thought?

The Raiders are. I never expected them to be at .500 14 games in. But Jason? Not so much.

He's EXACTLY what most always thought he was. Through 11 games and 10 starts, he has a TD a game, 8 INTS, 2k yards passing, and 9 fumbles. He is the very definition of mediocrity. He'll rarely take the chances to lose a game on his own. Rarely take the chances to go out and win one. Give him a decent run game, with a decent defense, and he'll manage games well enough for you.

FAR from being surprised, he's lived upto everyone's expectations. He is, and always will be, a very average pro QB. EXACTLY what we thought and expected of him this year.

Hail.

[Drastik]

The Raiders are 7-4 with Campbell as their QB this season. Good job Jason. The Redskins are the most foolish team in the NFL for giving up a 2nd and 3rd round pick for someone who has gone on to perform worse than you.

[HailGreen28]

And yet they didn't have success doing it.

Didn't get to actually watch his game vs Denver today, though it appeared to be rather up-&-down and underwhelming.

The Raiders had success running the ball, they stayed with it, running at least as much as they passed in the first half. That was causing the Jags to bite on play-action. And almost won the game.

Lots of Candle fans are now "missing" after the Denver game. Wonder why? The Raiders won. LOL

[Mahons21]

The Raiders are 7-4 with Campbell as their QB this season. Good job Jason. The Redskins are the most foolish team in the NFL for giving up a 2nd and 3rd round pick for someone who has gone on to perform worse than you.

You sound more like a Jason Campbell fan than a Washington Redskins fan.

---------- Post added December-20th-2010 at 11:13 AM ----------

Lots of Candle fans are now "missing" after the Denver game. Wonder why? The Raiders won. LOL

It's pretty sad. I get jumped on last week, after saying he played a hell of a game. This week he plays rather average to below average from what I understand (didn't get to watch any of the game) and Stallion is the only who admits it wasn't a very good game.

What happened to everyone who was chiming in after the SD game?

Speaking of the SD game, apparently Campbell has some competition as the best PA roll-out QB. Does this play look familiar?

http://www.nfl.com/videos/new-york-jets/09000d5d81d0bc57/QB-Sanchez-7-yd-run-TD-4th-down-conversion

I'm assuming Sanchez deserves all the credit for this play and his magnificent play-action.

[darrelgreenie]

Didn't get to watch the whole game b/c i was flipping channels but the commentators mentioned that Campbell had a good game.

[DCranon21]

It's pretty sad. I get jumped on last week, after saying he played a hell of a game. This week he plays rather average to below average from what I understand (didn't get to watch any of the game) and Stallion is the only who admits it wasn't a very good game.

What happened to everyone who was chiming in after the SD game?

Speaking of the SD game, apparently Campbell has some competition as the best PA roll-out QB. Does this play look familiar?

http://www.nfl.com/videos/new-york-jets/09000d5d81d0bc57/QB-Sanchez-7-yd-run-TD-4th-down-conversion

I'm assuming Sanchez deserves all the credit for this play and his magnificent play-action.

He had another tale of 2 halves. 1st half he sucked ass. 2nd half, he picked it up. Bottom line, he picked the pieces up and found a way to make up for that craptacular 1st half. Hey he's helping the Raiders win more games than they have in 8 seasons. First time since 2002. He's not putting up world beater numbers, but he's efficient enough. They are a 55% run team to 45% pass team.

[HailGreen28]

It's pretty sad. I get jumped on last week, after saying he played a hell of a game. This week he plays rather average to below average from what I understand (didn't get to watch any of the game) and Stallion is the only who admits it wasn't a very good game.

About sums it up. I don't think Candle will have another 10.1 QBR this year, but can't believe any Skins fan the past few years would think he'd turn into an above average QB now.

[Mahons21]

He had another tale of 2 halves. 1st half he sucked ass. 2nd half, he picked it up. Bottom line, he picked the pieces up and found a way to make up for that craptacular 1st half. Hey he's helping the Raiders win more games than they have in 8 seasons. First time since 2002. He's not putting up world beater numbers, but he's efficient enough. They are a 55% run team to 45% pass team.

Was the 2nd half really that good? Still seems rather inconsistent to me, but I didn't watch the game, just now taking the time to read a quick play-by-play.

1st drive: Riddled with penalties ends in punt

2nd drive: Campbell 0 for 2, threw an intentional grounding that offset a roughing the passer. Ends in a FG

3rd drive: Campbell has a nice pass to Ford, the one we've all scene on the highlights. Only pass of the drive.

4th drive: Campbell dumps it off to Reece for 76 yard having his statistics inflated, due to a blown coverage.

5th drive: Campbell 0 for 2, 3 and out after McFaddens original 20 yarder

6th drive: Campbell with multiple descent passes from what I understand.

7th drive: Kneel

In that 2nd half I see one descent drive, one good pass on a separate drive, and one dump off that was taken to the house by a WR converted to FB. That's hardly a good half.

You could say that 52 other guys are also "helping the Raiders win more games than they have since 2002." Difference is some of them are playing at an extremely high level when compared to their peers ie when you compare McFadden to other RB's around the league he's one of the best right now. Ford hasn't yet gained consistency but he's been making plays that few other people in the league can.

Campbell is playing descent, but he's not doing anything that majority of the starting QB's around this league couldn't do.

[TheLongshot]

He had another tale of 2 halves. 1st half he sucked ass. 2nd half, he picked it up. Bottom line, he picked the pieces up and found a way to make up for that craptacular 1st half. Hey he's helping the Raiders win more games than they have in 8 seasons. First time since 2002. He's not putting up world beater numbers, but he's efficient enough. They are a 55% run team to 45% pass team.

And I think some of the numbers are skewed a bit because they are such a strong rushing team (They are tied for the NFL lead in rushing TDs.)

Really, tho, I think he mostly has ended up as a Gibbs-style QB: a big-armed QB who is efficient and can manage a running game. To be honest, his numbers aren't much different than Mark Rypien's, other than Campbell has more mobility and throws for a higher completion percentage. But, expectations here were higher for Campbell and people wanted him to be more than that.

[mattsb84]

Redskins should have never drafted Campbell in the first place. They invested wayyyy to much in that position and to get a guy like Campbell who was not a can't miss prospect was foolish.

Its comical how the Skins FO operates these last few years.Spend money to sign a FA QB, who fails. Spend a late 1st on a qb, who fails. Spend more picks on yet another qb, who fails. Then send more draft picks to a divisional rival who hasnt failed yet, but who is now benched in favor of Rex Grossman/John Beck. Horrible.

[Mahons21]

And I think some of the numbers are skewed a bit because they are such a strong rushing team (They are tied for the NFL lead in rushing TDs.)

Isn't this a double edged sword though? Even though Campbell might not get as many attempts as other QB's, shouldn't the strong rushing attack be setting Campbell up for the deep/PA pass?

Really, tho, I think he mostly has ended up as a Gibbs-style QB: a big-armed QB who is efficient and can manage a running game. To be honest, his numbers aren't much different than Mark Rypien's, other than Campbell has more mobility and throws for a higher completion percentage. But, expectations here were higher for Campbell and people wanted him to be more than that.

I agree with this. Problem is, in the 21st century NFL, you don't trade back into the 1st round to get a game manager. Not when a player like Rodgers was taking a couple picks prior to that. You can find a game manager in the mid-late rounds.

[TheLongshot]

Isn't this a double edged sword though? Even though Campbell might not get as many attempts as other QB's, shouldn't the strong rushing attack be setting Campbell up for the deep/PA pass?

It has at times. I know I saw one in the SD game. Also, his yardage average is the highest in his career right now.

I agree with this. Problem is, in the 21st century NFL, you don't trade back into the 1st round to get a game manager. Not when a player like Rodgers was taking a couple picks prior to that. You can find a game manager in the mid-late rounds.

I think you overestimate the quality of QBs in the NFL draft. Fact is, even finding a solid starter in the draft is difficult. I also think "game management" is underrated by the fanbase. Part of being a good QB is making sure that you have the right call for the defense that is out there. Campbell has been getting high praise from his coaching staff in that regard.

Also, let's be honest here: Rodgers had three years on the bench with one of the best in the game to learn from. Even then, GB wasn't even sure what they had in him. Campbell, on the other hand, has never been in an offense for longer than two years.

[Mahons21]

It has at times. I know I saw one in the SD game. Also, his yardage average is the highest in his career right now.

So you agree that it has helped his statistics (in some regards) as well then I assume?

I think you overestimate the quality of QBs in the NFL draft. Fact is, even finding a solid starter in the draft is difficult. I also think "game management" is underrated by the fanbase. Part of being a good QB is making sure that you have the right call for the defense that is out there. Campbell has been getting high praise from his coaching staff in that regard.

No doubt finding a QB in the draft is difficult. My point was that the intent of drafting a QB in the 1st rd is usually to be more than a game manager.

I disagree that being a game manager is underrated. When most game managers are replaced by a backup, their usually isn't a large drop off. This suggest the QB doesn't offer much more to the team than their a backup, that's hardly underrated. I also believe that every QB who's started in the NFL for over a couple years should be able to make the right call at the line, its basically just a game of numbers.

Also, let's be honest here: Rodgers had three years on the bench with one of the best in the game to learn from. Even then, GB wasn't even sure what they had in him. Campbell, on the other hand, has never been in an offense for longer than two years.

I'm in no way saying Rodgers didn't have a better situation to grow in the NFL than Campbell. However, I think it's evident by the performance of Rodgers that there was a good chance he was going to succeed in the NFL.

Do you not believe that, had we traded up two spots higher and drafted Rodgers instead, he would be our unquestioned starter at the moment?

[TheLongshot]

So you agree that it has helped his statistics (in some regards) as well then I assume?

Sure. My point, tho, is that when you are in the red zone and you have a strong running game, you are more likely to try to punch it in on the ground.

No doubt finding a QB in the draft is difficult. My point was that the intent of drafting a QB in the 1st rd is usually to be more than a game manager.

Well, that was the expectation of the fan base. I don't know if that was Gibbs' expectations. Tho, suggesting that Campbell DOESN'T make plays is a fallacy. Every QB needs to make enough plays during the game to keep the ball moving. One of the big improvements of last year was that he was doing it on a semi-regular basis.

Do you not believe that, had we traded up two spots higher and drafted Rodgers instead, he would be our unquestioned starter at the moment?

Given the screwed-up nature of this francise, I think it would have been difficult for any young QB to succeed here. Campbell was never the problem, but the sympton of a dysfunctional organization.

[Mahons21]

Sure. My point, tho, is that when you are in the red zone and you have a strong running game, you are more likely to try to punch it in on the ground.

I agree with that 100%. My only point was that while his strong rushing attacks works against him in some regards, in other regards in works in his favor. I think we both agree on this.

Well, that was the expectation of the fan base. I don't know if that was Gibbs' expectations. Tho, suggesting that Campbell DOESN'T make plays is a fallacy. Every QB needs to make enough plays during the game to keep the ball moving. One of the big improvements of last year was that he was doing it on a semi-regular basis.

I did not mean to suggest Campbell didn't make any plays.

Given the screwed-up nature of this francise, I think it would have been difficult for any young QB to succeed here. Campbell was never the problem, but the sympton of a dysfunctional organization.

It may have been difficult but I believe Rodgers would have succeeded, obviously thats just my opinion and we'll never be able to know.

While I do think their is a larger problem, I don't agree Jason Campbell was never at least part of the problem. Sure he had his moments ie Saints game(s), but he also had his extremely bad games.