PFT:: Gradkowski, Campbell conundrum could spark a locker-room rift (MET)

[Mahons21]

ignore mahons, he will say something then go back on it saying you merely misunderstood him. he won't look at valid arguments that go against what he says and try to refute them, he'll merely try to morph a valid argument into his own anamorphic blob of convoluted reasoning and just keep rolling with it as if he never said anything different.

What are you just following me around now troll? I don't change my argument, I just don't let you form it for me and I understand that frustrates you. It's much easier to argue against some fallacy you create, than actually debate someone's real opinion.

maybe if he watches more playbook he can see mcnabb having people open downfield and not throwing it to them, but instead checking down. or taking sacks with checkdowns available to him.

I've watched playbook most of the year, that's when I saw them breakdown the film of Kolb. I also hope you're not mocking playbook, these guys go over actual gamefilm and give evidence of the mistakes and great plays and how they happened. It's quite intriguing to watch.

I haven't seen anything on McNabb, though with the way he's been playing I wouldn't be surprised. Though I doubt he's missing people downfield, his problem seems to be he's missing the wide open guys underneath.

but then again that's different and not at all alarming for a 13 year vet.

McNabb's play has been alarming for me. Why are you again creating my argument for me?

[tiger187126]

for once, just for me i want you to lay out exactly how you feel about a subject with no double talk or vague statements.

it seems to me you spend twice as long trying to clarify who's putting words in your mouth as you are actually saying something.

so tell me, right now:

how do you feel about the Gradkowski, Campbell Conundrum sparking a locker-room rift?

[Mahons21]

for once, just for me i want you to lay out exactly how you feel about a subject with no double talk or vague statements.

There's no double talk or vague statements.

it seems to me you spend twice as long trying to clarify who's putting words in your mouth as you are actually saying something.

Dude are you serious?

when you say

but then again that's different and not at all alarming for a 13 year vet.

You're sarcastically implying that I in someway suggested McNabb's performance has been adequate in my point of view. Though the fact of the matter is, I never said anything of the sort. See how you're putting words in my mouth.

how do you feel about the Gradkowski, Campbell Conundrum sparking a locker-room rift?

I couldn't care less about it. Right now I was discussing with DG, why I believe Campbell got the nickname Captain Checkdown. DG made a valid point and said why isn't someone like a Tom Brady who throws the ball short on almost every down considered a captain checkdown. I explained I believe the difference is because Brady is making a quick read and getting the ball out of his hands, often to a WR.. Rather than going through all of his reads, and then deciding to dump the ball off to a RB.

I don't know why you brought my opinion of McNabb into it..

[tiger187126]

le sigh.

you can't even make a relevant post about the thread title.

go figure.

it's not a coincidence that every thread you're in you bring up straw men and being misunderstood.

i'll make this easier on you, and stop breaking apart every line of what someone writes and writing a comment underneath it.

i do not need "dude are you serious?" underneath what i say. my post is not a line by line deal, it's a summation of what i want to say and you could address it as such.

but i'm sure you didn't actually say "dude are you serious?" and that's just me sarcastically implying something.

but for pete's sake, make a clear, concise, valid point. don't drag "misunderstandings" out so long.

[Mahons21]

le sigh.

you can't even make a relevant post about the thread title.

go figure.

I quoted something someone else had said, and gave my opinion. Why are you just trying to be a dick?

it's not a coincidence that every thread you're in you bring up straw men and being misunderstood.

It's actually only happened with one other person today than you. You seem to have a talent at it.

i'll make this easier on you, and stop breaking apart every line of what someone writes and writing a comment underneath it.

Actually you're not making anything easy. When a post has multiple points I break it down so that there's no confusion as to what post I'm addressing. I will continue to do so.

i do not need "dude are you serious?" underneath what i say. my post is not a line by line deal, it's a summation of what i want to say and you could address it as such.

I don't care what you need. I'd rather you not make a summation, and actually address what I say point by point. That way there's less confusion.

but i'm sure you didn't actually say "dude are you serious?" and that's just me sarcastically implying something.

Actually I did. Notice how you can see it with your eyes. The words are right there in front of you, you're not conjuring up what I said in your head.

but for pete's sake, make a clear, concise, valid point. don't drag "misunderstandings" out so long.

I don't drag out anything. You quote me, misrepresent what I say, then I tell you that's not what I said. The only reason anything has been dragged out has been because rather than refuting what I say, you know the words on the screen in front of you, you refute some argument you create for me.

[tiger187126]

alright, i'm done with you dude. first off it's entirely too annoying to try to edit a quote from you to show you something. that might be part of your whole plan, but it's a turn off.

second, you still haven't given me a point like i've been asking for you just keep on arguing with me on nothing related to football.

look through this thread, i've been on here with stats and facts. that's all i want from you. but you won't do it, so i'm done trying to find the logic in anything you say.

[Boss_Hogg]

alright, i'm done with you dude. first off it's entirely too annoying to try to edit a quote from you to show you something. that might be part of your whole plan, but it's a turn off.

second, you still haven't given me a point like i've been asking for you just keep on arguing with me on nothing related to football.

look through this thread, i've been on here with stats and facts. that's all i want from you. but you won't do it, so i'm done trying to find the logic in anything you say.

you must be still fired up about the DTC thread in the stadium, I know I am.

[tiger187126]

you must be still fired up about the DTC thread in the stadium, I know I am.

i went to go post something and it said blocked and i thought i got banned.

btw, he did PM me and ask if i wanted to come to his tailgate for the giants game.

[Boss_Hogg]

i went to go post something and it said blocked and i thought i got banned.

btw, he did PM me and ask if i wanted to come to his tailgate for the giants game.

but I thought he turned in his fan card?

I sure as hell would not want to hang out with his racist punk***

[TheItalianStallion]

LOL. A first half of dump offs and incompletes. Where McFadden took one of Candle's weaksauce 2 yd passes and took it 60 yards to the house. (No exaggeration, really.) Again, the RBs are doing the work. Candle's performance was good, but to call it "superior" is laughable when he was allowed to just do what any mediocre QB could have done in his spot.

"A first half of dump offs and incompletes"? He threw 3 incompletions in 14 first half attempts! Even if the 67-yard throw to McFadden is omitted, that's still 137 yards in the first half, and 10.5 ypa. For his final #s, if the 67 yarder is taken out, that's still 257 yards in 29 attempts (8.85 ypa). Btw, McFadden pretty much just ran in a straight line when he caught the ball.

[Mahons21]

alright, i'm done with you dude.

I hope this means you won't be following me into another thread.

second, you still haven't given me a point like i've been asking for you just keep on arguing with me on nothing related to football.

What point were you asking for exactly? I quoted DG, and gave my opinion on why Campbell and not Brady might be called captain checkdown, I then reinforced this opinion with you.

look through this thread, i've been on here with stats and facts. that's all i want from you. but you won't do it, so i'm done trying to find the logic in anything you say.

You don't need stats or facts to give your opinion, and ironically enough if you take your own advice I'm in this very same thread giving stats.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

"A first half of dump offs and incompletes"? He threw 3 incompletions in 14 first half attempts! Even if the 67-yard throw to McFadden is omitted, that's still 137 yards in the first half, and 10.5 ypa. For his final #s, if the 67 yarder is taken out, that's still 257 yards in 29 attempts (8.85 ypa). Btw, McFadden pretty much just ran in a straight line when he caught the ball.

Don't you know that the only passes Campbell can complete are dump offs? Don't you know that 95% of his yardage is due to RBs taking his passes that travel 2 feet behind the LOS and running 75 yards with them? Don't you realize that you don't have to actually watch JC play in order to proclaim he sucked eggs? Don't you know that you are NEVER wrong in your descriptions of Campbell's play as long as it's negative? Don't you know that a blind, comatose donkey could complete the passes that Campbell completes? Don't you know that it's against the law in 39 states to praise Campbell for anything?

Where have you been? lol...

[luke1867]

LOL. A first half of dump offs and incompletes. Where McFadden took one of Candle's weaksauce 2 yd passes and took it 60 yards to the house. (No exaggeration, really.) Again, the RBs are doing the work. Candle's performance was good, but to call it "superior" is laughable when he was allowed to just do what any mediocre QB could have done in his spot.

You might want to clean up your post on another thing too. Calling the "last 2 games" Candle played in "stellar" might be read as including the Raiders-Steelers game. I'd blame the Steelers D more than Candle for that one, but "stellar" is either silly or ignorant (not knowing, not necessarily stupid).

---------- Post added December-13th-2010 at 06:11 PM ----------

I've basically said this to you before. Call me when one of our guys takes a weak 2 yard dump-off or our guys rush for 200+ yds.

What excuses? McNabb passed for 22/35, 228 YDS, 2 TD. He did look like our old "Captain Checkdown" out there, but I think the run game helped it from being worse, even when we weren't rushing late because the Bucs were still having to account for it. That dovetails nicely into how Candle gets helped out more by the greater support he's getting from the Raider's run game. What part of this do you STILL not get?

Hail!

This is where you like any other person who did not watch the game looks completely ignorant and sounds embarassing on your part. Campbell audibled Mcfadden's 31 yd run for a TD. On the long catch and run by Mcfadden, the defense could not stop him on the pass so they covered deep - Mcfadden was wide open when Campbell like any smart QB, threw to him. Some of you are real clowns. You try to take away Campbell's performance by putting it on Mcfadden. This is Mcfadden's third year in the league. Why wasn't he doing this the last two years?? You have to credit that there is now a competent QB who defenses fear and who is audibling alot and playing smart football. He avoided rush after rush to hit the pass and spread the ball to his receivers. Coach Cable called his performance "the finest performance by a Raider QB in a long time". This is Campbell's 5th 100+ QB rating this season. You guys can attempt to diminish his performance all you want, but 158.3 QB rating (137.6 for the game) is what it is. Damn fine performance by anybody. He has completely outplayed McNaab this year. There is absolutely no debate about that. You are so desperate that you call a 12/16 80% completion 10 ypa 158.3 QB rating performance "a first half of dump offs and incompletes". If they were all incompletes then how did he complete 80% of his passes? Do you understand that 158.3 QB rating is the highest possible rating in a game? The only person who had close to that in a half this season was Michael Vick against the Redskins!! Mediocre QBs do not put up 204 yds in one half! or throw for 324 yds in a game completing 70% of their passes. Whether you hate someone or not, you can maintain credibility when you give that person their due respect. The credit is well deserved so stop being a childish hater.

---------- Post added December-14th-2010 at 09:24 AM ----------

I hope this means you won't be following me into another thread.

What point were you asking for exactly? I quoted DG, and gave my opinion on why Campbell and not Brady might be called captain checkdown, I then reinforced this opinion with you.

You don't need stats or facts to give your opinion, and ironically enough if you take your own advice I'm in this very same thread giving stats.

You know, it wouldn't hurt give a bit of credit when it is deserved some times. You people sound like it takes something away from you.

[tr1]

What some people call "dump offs" others call making the correct decision or others refer to it as efficiency or even beating the blitz

"checking" down is often the right answer

how come no one calls Brady Captain checkdown? Their passing game is predicated on "checkdowns"

JC has another good game, and the boyz can't say anything positive.

Remarkable how the hate blinds some folks.

[Fred Jones]

I am happy for JC and defended him on this board many times. JC is also a good person, teammate and easy to coach. I have also said that JC was an average NFL QB. I think the Raiders are just playing to his strengths and JC is finally playing as good as he could be.

That said, he would not fit this offense and JC is what he is. He is going to win some games and he is going to lose some games. Good running games make QB's look better. One of my biggest issues with Jason was when the game was on the line, and you needed a TD to win the game, he just never came through.

Luke1867, I agree with all your points and you put up a good post, but you could have copied and pasted your argument from the many JC threads over the years stating the same thing. Good stats, but a skins loss.

All that said, I do agree that JC is playing his best ball with the Raiders currently and I wish him the best of luck.

[Mahons21]

You know, it wouldn't hurt give a bit of credit when it is deserved some times. You people sound like it takes something away from you.

The first line I wrote after Campbell's game was "Campbell had him self a hell of a game." Exactly how much credit was I supposed to give him?

[tr1]

The first line I wrote after Campbell's game was "Campbell had him self a hell of a game." Exactly how much credit was I supposed to give him?

He's had good games since then...positive comments from you since then? Not so much. :rotflmao:

[elkabong82]

The first line I wrote after Campbell's game was "Campbell had him self a hell of a game." Exactly how much credit was I supposed to give him?

How about the others? And I certainly haven't seen you refute any of their claims in here, despite you saying JC had a hell of a game.

Or how about you following your praise immediately with an attack on other posters, calling them hypocrites by misrepresenting what they were saying last week, almost like a desparate swipe at the opposition since you can't really attack JC's performance this week.

[Mahons21]

How about the others?

Why should I speak for the others?

And I certainly haven't seen you refute any of their claims in here, despite you saying JC had a hell of a game.

Why would I refute their claims? Did you expect some long detailed analysis of what Campbell did? I didn't watch enough of the game to give one.

Or how about you following your praise immediately with an attack on other posters, calling them hypocrites by misrepresenting what they were saying last week, almost like a desparate swipe at the opposition since you can't really attack JC's performance this week.

I misunderstood a poster last week. Has that never happened to you before? It was no desperate attempt to attack anything. I said I found it hypocritical that people who I had believed discounted QB stats in a game, were now using QB stats it a game. Califan explained his position, I was incorrect and I didn't say anything else.

I'm just curious do you have some problem with me? If so will you just stop, referencing my posts. I'm the only person who's argued against Campbell and come back in here right after his good game and claimed it to be so, yet you're engaging in a debate that has nothing to do with you, nor were you even addressed, you've just come in here to try to attack me, and not my opinion. So I'm curious what's your beef?

---------- Post added December-14th-2010 at 12:29 PM ----------

He's had good games since then...positive comments from you since then? Not so much. :rotflmao:

He's had a good game since last week? I was unaware the Raiders played both Sunday and Monday.

[KingGibbs]

Campbell played a helluva game. I don't know what else needs to be said. It seems to me that those that are big Campbell supporters can't handle when those of us that aren't give him props. I guess they are the ones with an "agenda."

[darrelgreenie]

Like I said, it wasn't the designed short plays on 3 step drops that irritated me. It was that when he had the time to go through his progressions. On far too many of these plays he checked down, there were NFC playbook shows on it last year, that would show the receivers running open downfield. Much like there were for Kolb in games this year.

Well the the bulk of our offense was 3 step drop and quick game.

I distinctly recall the Panthers game when Jason got tackled from behind while executing a play-action fake on a 7 step drop and Zorn mentioned QB safety in the press conference and that game was the last game where we ran a lot of 5 and 7 step drops.

-NFLN Playbook is a great show but just b/c they show a 4 play snap shot doesn't equate to that players entire season.

You can take a 4 play snap shot of a QB having a good game and make them look bad.

But when the PA, and bigger plays are called for, Brady takes his drop stands tall in the pocket and gets the ball down field. Campbell (on the few plays) he did have opportunity checked it down far too much for me.....Maybe it was because Gibbs hammered play it safe football into his head, maybe it's because he wasn't comfortable in the system, maybe it was because he was so used to pressure he just assumed it would be there. It was probably some combination of all of them.

Again pass protection comes into play, don't forget we had the worst bookend OTs in the league.

QB sacks and hits have an cumlative effect on any QB.

But I didn't like the rate at which our passing attack checked it down last year on plays designed to go further down field.

Well, it seems like your wrongly blaming the QB for a problem within the entire passing game.

The quality of the pass protection dictates which type of passing game a team can execute.

As much as you hate the stats JC stats indicated a QB playing within the confines of a terrible situation.

maybe if he watches more playbook he can see mcnabb having people open downfield and not throwing it to them, but instead checking down. or taking sacks with checkdowns available to him......but then again that's different and not at all alarming for a 13 year vet.

I've posted about McNabb's disdain for the open checkdown or i.e. the correct read.

I'm also frustrated by his errant passes when he does spot the open checkdown.

I think McNabb can still work out but he's playing worse then i imagined and Kyle's playcalling isn't far behind.

BTW-I know Mahons quite well.

He's a passionate Skins fans that sometimes goes too far like all do sometimes.

[Mahons21]

DG, I agree with most of what you said, and yes sometimes last year I did give Campbell too much of the blame. However I don't think checking-down is one of the issues Campbell took too much blame for from me. While I had issue with it, it was no where near other issues.

[TheLongshot]

That said, he would not fit this offense and JC is what he is. He is going to win some games and he is going to lose some games. Good running games make QB's look better. One of my biggest issues with Jason was when the game was on the line, and you needed a TD to win the game, he just never came through.

Funny thing is, he does seem to be making those plays with the Raiders. People made fun of the "he doesn't have any weapons" argument, but given how he's doing and how our team is doing, it seems very true now. We've "upgraded" at the QB position, but the results are very similar to last year. Also, a good running game didn't do much for McNabb's production last Sunday.

[Mahons21]

Also, a good running game didn't do much for McNabb's production last Sunday.

I'd have to disagree.

With a rushing attack this week McNabb had 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 0 fumbles, 225 y, and a pr of 100.

Weeks prior his stats pale in comparison. NYG, 1 TD, 2 INTs, 3 fumbles (1 lost), almost 300 y

[Drastik]

We should have never got rid of Campbell in favor of Mcnabb