True or False: Mike and Bruce want to win now AND build for the future

[Oldfan]

Thanks for calling my interpretation stupid...nice coming from someone who has pointed out personal attacks a few times already in this very thread.

I didn't say that YOU were stupid. You were trying too hard to nail me with your point and you missed.

Anyway, I still don't see how it's not possible to do both well. Move A might be short-term while Move B might be long-term. If they are both solid moves, aren't you doing a good balance of adding pieces to win now AND win in the future?

There's no free lunch. The McNabb move was costly. The bill will come due before we build enough support around him to win big.

There's really no such thing as a long-term rebuild in the NFL anymore where you gut a team and start from scratch (outside of an expansion team).

Gutting the team was never necessary, but to build an elite team, the team has to seize each and every opportunity to get younger and better, primarily through the draft.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I didn't say that YOU were stupid. You were trying too hard to nail me with your point and you missed.

I wasn't really trying hard to nail you. I don't really care to do so, I'm just attempting to get you to see the other side of this debate.

There's no free lunch. The McNabb move was costly. The bill will come due before we build enough support around him to win big.

So, those 2 picks are the only way we'd be able to "build enough support around him" to win big? If so, wow, then I guess if we trade one veteran for 2 picks, we're set, huh?

Gutting the team was never necessary, but to build an elite team, the team has to seize each and every opportunity to get younger and better, primarily through the draft.

What if the team gets better without getting younger? Not all younger players are better players.

[Oldfan]

So, those 2 picks are the only way we'd be able to "build enough support around him" to win big?

I didn't state or imply that.

What if the team gets better without getting younger? Not all younger players are better players.

Elite teams build through the draft and re-sign their best players. Draft picks are young players.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I didn't state or imply that.

Explain what you meant by this:

The McNabb move was costly. The bill will come due before we build enough support around him to win big.

To me, it sounds like you're saying that we gave away too much for McNabb (The McNabb move was costly) and, as a result, we would find ourselves without the picks to re-stock our roster (The bill will come due before we build enough support around him to win big).

What did you mean, if not that?

[Oldfan]

Explain what you meant by this:

The McNabb move was costly. The bill will come due before we build enough support around him to win big.

To me, it sounds like you're saying that we gave away too much for McNabb (The McNabb move was costly) and, as a result, we would find ourselves without the picks to re-stock our roster (The bill will come due before we build enough support around him to win big).

What did you mean, if not that?

I meant that his skills will diminish and he'll be gone before we have a chance to support him well enough to fully capitalize on what he has left in the tank. The two picks we spent for him were a high price to pay for the return we can reasonably expect.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I meant that his skills will diminish and he'll be gone before we have a chance to support him well enough to fully capitalize on what he has left in the tank. The two picks we spent for him were a high price to pay for the return we can reasonably expect.

if we get three years out of mcnabb whats not to say we draft a QB next year or the year after and have him start once mcnabb is finished? you truly think were going to sit on mcnabb and not have a successor waiting in the wings? doubtful IMO.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I meant that his skills will diminish and he'll be gone before we have a chance to support him well enough to fully capitalize on what he has left in the tank. The two picks we spent for him were a high price to pay for the return we can reasonably expect.

How do you know that we can't put a team around McNabb in the next 3 years?

if we get three years out of mcnabb whats not to say we draft a QB next year or the year after and have him start once mcnabb is finished? you truly think were going to sit on mcnabb and not have a successor waiting in the wings? doubtful IMO.

Exactly...we might have a 3-4 year plan for McNabb and intend to have his heir apparent on our roster by year 2 of that plan. At that point, you are building the same core around McNabb and the future QB.

Unless you think this past year's 2nd and next year's 3rd were going to be the difference-makers, I don't see how the price is that steep (since you're getting dramatically improved play at QB for those 3-4 years).

It's not like we traded for a QB who is equal to what we had...you can't discount the upgrade over the next few years.

[pjfootballer]

if we get three years out of mcnabb whats not to say we draft a QB next year or the year after and have him start once mcnabb is finished? you truly think were going to sit on mcnabb and not have a successor waiting in the wings? doubtful IMO.

And how do we know McNabb's skills will diminish? Favre had one of his best seasons at age 40.

[Conn]

And how do we know McNabb's skills will diminish? Favre had one of his best seasons at age 40.

This is what I've been thinking about.

To be fair, Favre is the 'Mr. Tough' of the NFL, but everyone quotes McNabb's tendency as a "running QB" as to why he'll be done in 3 or 4 years.

Honestly, I saw McNabb transition into a pocket passer (however mobile) years ago. And if we keep building up this team's talent around him (having a franchise QB allows you the stability to do just that), I don't see why we need to assume that there's a ticking clock on his career.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I agree...I don't think expecting 3+ years is unrealistic. When he turns into a pumpkin, no one knows. That's why I'd like to have our heir apparent in place by McNabb's second or third year. If we're somehow faced with an Aaron Rodgers/Kevin Kolb decision in a few years, great!

[pjfootballer]

Another point. Shanahan made the playoffs 4 times with 1 playoff win in his last 10 years with the Broncos. Our last 10 years, 2 playoff appearances and 1 playoff win. What's the difference? Might as well take a shot. Can anyone tell me if there was a better coaching candidate out there than Mike Shanahan that could lead us to elite/dynasty status? Sometimes it takes luck. Finding the right coach to lead the right players at the right time. That's the way the new NFL is. It's harder today to build a Steelers 1970s dynasty with free agency and with the draft reduced from 20 rounds to 7. Once you had a superstar on your team, it was a remote chance they'd be playing in another uniform.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

And how do we know McNabb's skills will diminish? Favre had one of his best seasons at age 40.

even better point. mcnabb might play at a high level for 5 more seasons. you never know with some of these guys.

my only concern at all for mcnabb is just bogus injuries. he always misses 2-3 games a year which is an issue. hopefully he avoids that this season.

[pjfootballer]

I actually think that a change of scenery for both Shanahan and McNabb will re-energize both of them to the point that they "MAY" exceed expectations around here.

[HailGreen28]

The way to win now AND build for the future would be to bring in *young* guys better than the guys we had last year.

We didn't do that. This offseason was about "win now".

[addicted]

The way to win now AND build for the future would be to bring in *young* guys better than the guys we had last year.

We did that in multiple places. The problem is you want to act like we didn't because we didn't have that many draft picks. Booo freaking hooo. The past years sins had to be paid for. Thank Vinny. As for trading for the new RT and QB, those are clear upgrades. Age is just a freaking number. Because I am 30 and you are 25 that's not enough to make you a better player then I am (I'm not btw but the points the same). Age is a number. We improved the team and really there isn't any point to argue that we were better off long term without McNabb then with him because none of us knows how that's going to turn out yet.

Only the foolish and blind would argue we aren't a better team today then we ended the season with last year. Only a damn fool will post 50 times that they know the furture already like someone did here. We do not know how this is going to turn out.

Rebuilding takes time, and trading a 3rd round draft pick for a ProBowl offensive linemen in his 20's was a great long term and short term move to make. Think about this....we traded the same pick for a probowl offensive linemen who was ranked one of the best 20 linemen in the entire league that we gave up for Jeremy Jarmon. Same pick, is Jeramy Jarmon that much better then Jammal Brown just because he's younger and was a draft pick?

For that matter does no one who's ****ing about our lack of picks remember that we spent our 3rd this year on a draft pick and count him among our draft class? You should.

[Conn]

addicted, he's not saying that we aren't a better team today than we were last year. No one's arguing that, that's obvious. They're arguing that we aren't better in the future because of the moves we made to make us better now.

And that's definitely debatable, even though I don't agree with them.

[Mahons21]

I haven't once seen OF say that the draft picks we will be missing due to the McNabb trade will strongly deter us from any future progress. Rather he seems to be arguing that if you want to build a team that can achieve sustained success, you should build said team through the draft. Since there is no real science to the NFL draft and it's more or less a crap shoot, it's obviously a better to have more picks. The more picks you have the better chance you have in hitting the gem in the mid to later rounds. Probably you won't, but if you don't have a said draft pick you'll never know.

OF's made a lot of very good points that seem to be frustrating many of you because they actually cause you to think about your own point of view. Too many of you are distorting his POV, which seems quite clear to me, to try and support your own arguments. Rather than offering evidence to back up your point.

OF doesn't agree with you guys, it isn't the end of the world, I personally don't agree with him either. But I won't deny that he makes very good points, and does paint a good picture of another perspective of this off season. Until he's proven wrong by the team, he's entitled to his opinion, and I'm sure he won't be scared to eat a big helping of crow if that is the case. But if he is right in the end, will we excuse the team? Or will we man up and eat the crow, and admit it was possible that Shannahan intent was to win now.

[addicted]

addicted, he's not saying that we aren't a better team today than we were last year. No one's arguing that, that's obvious. They're arguing that we aren't better in the future because of the moves we made to make us better now.

I've read comments from people here in this thread that makes me think we aren't better today then tomorrow. I was talking about that poster, not everyone. I should have been more clearer.

And that's definitely debatable, even though I don't agree with them.

Lets look at it:

2010 Draft:

We got one old dude and the dude just happens to be our QB. We drafted: Trent Williams, Jeremy Jarmon, Perry Riley, Dennis Morris, Terrence Austin, Eric Cook, and Selvish Capers

We drafted 7 dudes in a 7 round draft. We also ended up with Donavan McNabb and Adam Carriker in the draft.

Seems to me that we drafted fine and came out of the 2010 draft in pretty good shape for our future.

2011 draft we don't have 2 picks there which we traded for our Franchise QB and Franchise RT, for our 3rd and 4th picks. By comparison that was Jeremy Jarmon and Perry Riley. Hmmmm....ProBowl QB and Probowl RT for an unknown DT and unknown LBer. I'll take the proven Probowlers over the DT and LBer any day personally. You know what the best part is about this though? Before the draft did anyone even the best draftniks think we'd end up with McNabb and Carriker when it was over? I bet they didn't. Don't freak about those 2 picks just yet, we could still be surprised and end up with more picks. Of course if your only mission is to root for the Patriots and confuse Redskins fans then none of this actually matters so I know the point will be missed on some. But I hope you get it.

As for the vets we brought in not already mentioned here...name one guy who we brought in that will demand big money? Larry Johnsons guarenteed 3 million for 3 years. That's our biggest committment to any of the vets we brought in this year. The rest can all go away next year and we owe then next to nothing. None of the old farts we got were given big money Vinny deals, they have to earn thier keep. If they don't they will get to stepping. We primed our cap situation very well. The sky aint falling, we are primed to rebuild right now.

The only question is if we made these moves wrongly. If all of the youngsters turn out to suck then we are in trouble. But the plan to me was clearly a fix right now and fix tomorrow type of movement. It's not all or nothing. Oldfan is far too black and white for my tastes. People are not just smart or stupid. The Redskins did not just plan for today and not give thought to tomorrow. Life is not all black and white. We exist in shades.

[onedrop]

@ Mahons21

"try and support your own arguments rather than offering evidence to back up your point."

What?

[pjfootballer]

Addicted hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. We're none worse for wear than we were. We're probably better in the short and long term.

[Conn]

I've read comments from people here in this thread that makes me think we aren't better today then tomorrow. I was talking about that poster, not everyone. I should have been more clearer.

Lets look at it:

2010 Draft:

We got one old dude and the dude just happens to be our QB. We drafted: Trent Williams, Jeremy Jarmon, Perry Riley, Dennis Morris, Terrence Austin, Eric Cook, and Selvish Capers

We drafted 7 dudes in a 7 round draft. We also ended up with Donavan McNabb and Adam Carriker in the draft.

Seems to me that we drafted fine and came out of the 2010 draft in pretty good shape for our future.

2011 draft we don't have 2 picks there which we traded for our Franchise QB and Franchise RT, for our 3rd and 4th picks. By comparison that was Jeremy Jarmon and Perry Riley. Hmmmm....ProBowl QB and Probowl RT for an unknown DT and unknown LBer. I'll take the proven Probowlers over the DT and LBer any day personally. You know what the best part is about this though? Before the draft did anyone even the best draftniks think we'd end up with McNabb and Carriker when it was over? I bet they didn't. Don't freak about those 2 picks just yet, we could still be surprised and end up with more picks. Of course if your only mission is to root for the Patriots and confuse Redskins fans then none of this actually matters so I know the point will be missed on some. But I hope you get it.

As for the vets we brought in not already mentioned here...name one guy who we brought in that will demand big money? Larry Johnsons guarenteed 3 million for 3 years. That's our biggest committment to any of the vets we brought in this year. The rest can all go away next year and we owe then next to nothing. None of the old farts we got were given big money Vinny deals, they have to earn thier keep. If they don't they will get to stepping. We primed our cap situation very well. The sky aint falling, we are primed to rebuild right now.

The only question is if we made these moves wrongly. If all of the youngsters turn out to suck then we are in trouble. But the plan to me was clearly a fix right now and fix tomorrow type of movement. It's not all or nothing. Oldfan is far too black and white for my tastes. People are not just smart or stupid. The Redskins did not just plan for today and not give thought to tomorrow. Life is not all black and white. We exist in shades.

Great post, addicted. I'm with you on this. I don't think its merely hopeful optimism to say that we are better off not only now, but in the future as well. I'm looking forward to seeing OF's response to your points.

[addicted]

I haven't once seen OF say that the draft picks we will be missing due to the McNabb trade will strongly deter us from any future progress. Rather he seems to be arguing that if you want to build a team that can achieve sustained success, you should build said team through the draft. Since there is no real science to the NFL draft and it's more or less a crap shoot, it's obviously a better to have more picks. The more picks you have the better chance you have in hitting the gem in the mid to later rounds. Probably you won't, but if you don't have a said draft pick you'll never know.

Ok so saying your right and the draft is one big ass gamble, then comparing:

Jeremy Jarmon and Pat Reily (2010 3rd and 4th Round draft picks)

Donavan McNabb and Jammal Brown (2011 3rd and 4th Round draft picks)

Which do you think we will come out more ahead short term and long term with?

To me there is no comparrison. Clearly to me as long as we re-sign those two men (McNabb and Brown) to long term contracts and they aren't just here for 1 year then we've done much better with the 2011 draft picks short and long term.

As for the idea that you need to throw as much against the wall and hold onto what ever sticks to have success I simply do not agree. That like most of OldFans posts are much too black and white to me. This is not an exact science, you have to use the draft and trading for veterans to find success.

OF's made a lot of very good points that seem to be frustrating many of you because they actually cause you to think about your own point of view. Too many of you are distorting his POV, which seems quite clear to me, to try and support your own arguments rather than offering evidence to back up your point.

Through out his long winded Patriots lovefest did he mention that the Pats traded draft picks for both starting WR's who were veterans which helped them get to there last Superbowl - Moss and Welker? They did it and he hangs onto them as the poster child for doing it right, yet gives us zero chance to have similar success?

My problem with Oldfan and his opinion is that when he's given a different opinion like I've shown him many many times he ignores the posts. He can't argue anything because he's holding onto the idea that he can't be wrong. At the same time he's attacking someone's post for one idea he uses the same idea in his favor. It's fake as all get out.

[TheLongshot]

even better point. mcnabb might play at a high level for 5 more seasons. you never know with some of these guys.

my only concern at all for mcnabb is just bogus injuries. he always misses 2-3 games a year which is an issue. hopefully he avoids that this season.

Problem is, injuries add up and wear you down. I wouldn't be as worried about it if McNabb was able to keep healthy, but he hasn't been able to do that.

[MattFancy]

Great post addicted. I can't argue with anything you said. This team is set up to win now and make a run in the future as well. We didn't mortgage the future to bring in McNabb, Brown, and Carriker. We didn't waste big money on againg vets like LJ, Parker, Hicks, etc. And I'd gladly trade a 3rd for McNabb if it means getting us a Super Bowl.

[pjfootballer]

And more picks doesn't necessarily mean the team gets better. The Eagles for years have had a ton of picks and it never resulted in even one championship. They have been competitive for the last 10 years, but maybe too much youth has kept them from winning the big one. You need to have a healthy balance of the draft (making quality picks instead of quantity) and free agency (bang for the buck instead of overspending).

I like having alot of picks, but the NFL of the 70s and 80s is different from the NFL today. There were 20 rounds of draft when the Steelers had their dynasty and 12 rounds for the Niners in the 80s. The only way they would give up any of their good young players was through a trade. There was no free agency in the 70s and only plan B in the 80s. Teams could hoard talent and create dynasties. You can't do that now. Roster turnover is at an all time high.

The Patriots got lucky with Brady and their first SB. Once they became a good team, it was easy for them to trade away players for draft picks because everyone wanted players from a winner. I'll give them credit for duping alot of teams out of picks. Their quantity over quality drafts have kept them afloat as one of the top teams, but it hasn't sustained their dynasty. They've probably been one of the best teams to use the balance of the draft and free agency to their advantage.