Baltimore Sun: Widespread cheating found at city elementary school

[Sticksboi05]

Not trying to be an ass, but are you now blaming the test because someone doesn't read a question correctly/can't eliminate obviously incorrect choices/are unsure of the correct answer?

A few things, one, you know as well as I do some kids just plain cannot read well. What is simple to us may not be to them. My 7th grade history teacher told us straight up, they test how well you can read. Yeah you have to know the answer but you have to understand what they are asking. I mean for smart kids standardized tests are incredibly easy and the questions are simple but it's not that way with everyone and you know that.

No. Here is basically what my point is. School is supposed to prepare you for life. A 50 question multiple choice test does not show whether or not you can apply what you learn in school to real life situations. Multiple choice especially. Tests that really show your knowledge are short answer where you have to start from scratch and answer from a scenario. The ability to guess, get lucky, and "show" that you know what you are talking about takes away from a standardized multiple choice test.

I agree with you that a well-rounded education is necessary. You should be going to college for 4 years. And college is about more than your future occupation it's about preparing you for real life. That's what separates us from say, Britain's system.

And yes, we all agree the education system needs an overhaul but we vary on the ways to do it. The fact that though, that we all agree it needs fixing proves how much fixing it really does need. The fact that we all have different ways of doing it proves how challenging it really is to do so.

[PeterMP]

A few things, one, you know as well as I do some kids just plain cannot read well. What is simple to us may not be to them. My 7th grade history teacher told us straight up, they test how well you can read. Yeah you have to know the answer but you have to understand what they are asking. I mean for smart kids standardized tests are incredibly easy and the questions are simple but it's not that way with everyone and you know that.

No. Here is basically what my point is. School is supposed to prepare you for life. A 50 question multiple choice test does not show whether or not you can apply what you learn in school to real life situations. Multiple choice especially. Tests that really show your knowledge are short answer where you have to start from scratch and answer from a scenario. The ability to guess, get lucky, and "show" that you know what you are talking about takes away from a standardized multiple choice test.

I agree with you that a well-rounded education is necessary. You should be going to college for 4 years. And college is about more than your future occupation it's about preparing you for real life. That's what separates us from say, Britain's system.

And yes, we all agree the education system needs an overhaul but we vary on the ways to do it. The fact that though, that we all agree it needs fixing proves how much fixing it really does need. The fact that we all have different ways of doing it proves how challenging it really is to do so.

Again, luck and guessing aren't really relevant across a whole school unless you think that the kids at one school over a period of years are less lucky than at other shools.

And I think schools teaching reading comprehension is pretty important.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Stick, I guess I see your point. But again I think you're attacking the current format of standardized testing instead of the CONCEPT of asking every 10th grader (for example) the same questions in order to determine which schools/counties/states are teaching/learning the curriculum and which ones are not.

If you want to argue that tricky, multiple choice questions are unfair to use, that is fine. However, I think we do need a series of standardized metrics in order to accurately compare teachers and school systems across the country. Whatever the format, a kid in Toledo should be answering the same questions as a kid in Seattle.

What this process will do (if done properly) is grade the graders...something I'm not sure we have any other way of doing objectively. You can't try to evaluate a teacher based on popularity, student GPA, etc.

[Sticksboi05]

Stick, I guess I see your point. But again I think you're attacking the current format of standardized testing instead of the CONCEPT of asking every 10th grader (for example) the same questions in order to determine which schools/counties/states are teaching/learning the curriculum and which ones are not.

If you want to argue that tricky, multiple choice questions are unfair to use, that is fine. However, I think we do need a series of standardized metrics in order to accurately compare teachers and school systems across the country. Whatever the format, a kid in Toledo should be answering the same questions as a kid in Seattle.

What this process will do (if done properly) is grade the graders...something I'm not sure we have any other way of doing objectively. You can't try to evaluate a teacher based on popularity, student GPA, etc.

I agree and quite frankly I don't think there is any great way of finding out.

[HailGreen28]

I agree with having standardized tests. It's the best way to compare schools and school systems.

[mcsluggo]

I agree with having standardized tests. It's the best way to compare schools and school systems.

this is partially true... and particularly relevent if you are a parent chosing what school district to buy a house in, or what private school to send your child to...

however, when it comes to grading the performance of schools/teachers/administrators, i personally think it is a crappy measure as currently utilized. I have no intention of giving teachers/schools a free ride... but it is ridiculous to not recognize that in both successful and failing schools the environment and performance of parents is an absolutely vital component. Under the current system, if you want to be rated a good teacher, your best bet is to get yourself assigned to a good school with good parents. whoola! success! (so the rich get richer, and have an EVEN EASIER time attracting the best of the best to educate their young)

the system PARTIALLY tries to get around this problem by also stressing deltas (changes in indicator values) but his isn't an optimal long run solution either.

i personally LIKE the standardized testing route... it just has to be handled with inteligence and wisdom, and has to be nuanced to handle the world we actually live in.... rather than just setting up a system to provide shocking headlines for the NY posts of the world (SHOCKING, i tell you i am SHOCKED!)

[ABQCOWBOY]

This is about money. The more students you pass, the more money you get. All of this comes down to money IMO.

[PeterMP]

This is about money. The more students you pass, the more money you get. All of this comes down to money IMO.

I find it hard to believe that there is money (especially on the individual basis) for kids passed (or improving) (up until the point in time you lose your job).

It is more likely that this about keeping the state from coming down on the school and sending people in to "intefere" with the people "running" it doing their "jobs".

[ABQCOWBOY]

I find it hard to believe that there is money (especially on the individual basis) for kids passed (or improving) (up until the point in time you lose your job).

It is more likely that this about keeping the state from coming down on the school and sending people in to "intefere" with the people "running" it doing their "jobs".

I assume it works the same way in Baltimore as it does here in NM. The funds are federal and they are predicated on test scores and students passing. This is about money.

[PeterMP]

I assume it works the same way in Baltimore as it does here in NM. The funds are federal and they are predicated on test scores and students passing. This is about money.

The federal government doesn't give funds to individual schools.

[dfitzo53]

I assume it works the same way in Baltimore as it does here in NM. The funds are federal and they are predicated on test scores and students passing. This is about money.

Not exactly.

The City of Baltimore gives each school a given amount of money per student at that school, plus funds for other items such as special education. Low-performing schools end up with other consequences, such as forced changes in the administration (sometimes private organizations are even brought in to administrate the schools) but it's not like the schools just have their funding cut off.

Sometimes teachers even get bonuses for agreeing to work in failing schools.

[armstrong001]

Hey if life were a multiple choice test things would be easier lol

Life is a never ending series of multiple choice tests.

It's 6:00AM. I partied too hard last night, and I'm hung over. I have to be at work by 7:00AM. Do I:

a)Hit the snooze button, wake up in 15 minutes, and get to work 5 minutes late.

b)Get my butt out of bed, show up 10 minutes early and impress the boss.

c)Go back to sleep. That job sucked anyways, and I'll find a better one once I recover.

The boss comes over to my desk and asks me a question about the project I'm working on. Do I:

a)Try to B.S. my way through the answer because I haven't been working on it.

b)Give him a straight answer because I've been studying up on the problem.

c)Tell him I don't know, and hope that he's not too upset.

It's Thursday night. I've got a big presentation to do tomorrow. Do I:

a)Go out with friends and close the bars down (Hey, it's $1.00 beer night!)

b)Go to bed at the normal time, but don't practice the presentation.

c)Practice the presentation a few times, make some last minute updates, and get to bed early.

People do nothing but make choices. If you have a hard time making choices or taking tests in general, you probably aren't going to do well in business.