Do you think health care reform will pass?

[gbear]

I just had to throw this out there for the croud saying the government constantly goes over budget. This example is from something I wasn't for at the time and still think could be much better, but it is an example of projected costs from the CBO being too high on a government action wading into the medical field:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/18/AR2010031805445_2.html?hpid=topnews

"CBO analysts attempt to make forecasts that are symmetrical -- that have a roughly equal chance of being better or worse than expected. And one recent example offers reason for optimism: The Medicare prescription drug benefit was passed in 2003 -- and its costs have come in lower than the CBO forecast. "

[fansince62]

We already know implications of top driven trickle-down stuff.

yes...and a growth rate that sustained improvement for all levels in the standard of living since the 1950s. Obama is going to kill that. we are headed for decades of high unemployment and stagnant growth.

and...naturally...you have moved off on a tangent by abstracting from the context of the post.

regulate.monitor.detect.enforce. GOT IT?

[fansince62]

We also know America hasn't used a free market healthcare delivery since before we were considered a global power. Not in anybodies life time posting here. Not since the 30's at best....

Why? because that model doesn't support the highly specialized nature of medicine in a modern medical system.

and because the system has been highly regulated by government.

[fansince62]

It also does not address the fundamental conflict between profits and public good in health care.

Because of this inherent conflict, the health care system is a kind of thing where free market forces will not produce desirable outcomes unless they are well regulated.

what a bunch of *rap. visit your doctor pinhead. you're imputing motives for individuals whose decision calculus is impacted my multiple variables.

and by the way...you do reveal yourself in the end "desirable outcomes". And you get to decide! what a grand plan for the rest of us.

this is not going to end well.

[zoony]

what a bunch of *rap. visit your doctor pinhead. you're imputing motives for individuals whose decision calculus is impacted my multiple variables.

and by the way...you do reveal yourself in the end "desirable outcomes". And you get to decide! what a grand plan for the rest of us.

this is not going to end well.

Is it possible just to have a discussion on this without all the rage?

not picking on you fansince, but you've been around a long time and are one of my favorite board personalities. But sheebus man, go lift weights or something, then come back and post

[Burgundy Burner]

The IRS will have new powers to seize funds if you don't buy health insurance. The IRS will grow by 17,000 employees under this plan.

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/domestic-taxes/87697-republicans-assail-irs-provision-in-health-care-bill-

Caterpillar, Inc. projects that this plan will cost them $100 million per year.

http://www.chicagobreakingbusiness.com/2010/03/caterpillar-health-care-bill-would-cost-it-100m.html

"You know we're going to control the insurance companies". Joe Biden.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/03/exclusive-vice-president-biden-says-obamas-cancelled-trip-not-a-bad-sign-for-health-care-bills-prosp.html

Everyone should hope that Obamacare never sees the light of day. I'm certainly hoping so.

[Burgundy Burner]

what a bunch of *rap. visit your doctor pinhead. you're imputing motives for individuals whose decision calculus is impacted my multiple variables.

and by the way...you do reveal yourself in the end "desirable outcomes". And you get to decide! what a grand plan for the rest of us.

this is not going to end well.

Don't let talking points get to you. I can visit several liberal-minded sites and post similar language (heck, the same can be said for those of us who are conservative too - I've been guilty of it a couple of times). I'd rather someone truly debate the issues, but it isn't worth the anger when words are simply rearranged from those talking points.

[zoony]

Caterpillar, Inc. projects that this plan will cost them $100 million per year.

http://www.chicagobreakingbusiness.com/2010/03/caterpillar-health-care-bill-would-cost-it-100m.html

I've always wondered what effect our broken and ineffective health care system has on corporate america.

I mean- if I'm Ford or GM and I'm shelling out hundreds of millions to pay for healthcare for my employees and retiress- and I'm expected to be competitive with European and Japanese companies that don't have to worry about it- I might be pissed.

Combine that with the election talking point from LY that said american corporations already pay among the highest taxes of all western countries...

I mean, if I'm a Fortune 500 CEO, I'm bribing every mother****er I know to push thru socialized medicine.

[zoony]

Caterpillar, Inc. projects that this plan will cost them $100 million per year.

http://www.chicagobreakingbusiness.com/2010/03/caterpillar-health-care-bill-would-cost-it-100m.html

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Everyone should hope that Obamacare never sees the light of day. I'm certainly hoping so.

And one other point- isn't it kind of sad that corporate America's balance sheet has become the arbiter for the health and welfare of our citizens?

Nevermind the costs or savings corporations get- why should it matter?

What an absolutely arbitrary and hideous marriage.... health care and corporate america. And because people don't know any different- they don't even stop to think about it.

[hkHog]

And one other point- isn't it kind of sad that corporate America's balance sheet has become the arbiter for the health and welfare of our citizens?

Nevermind the costs or savings corporations get- why should it matter?

What an absolutely arbitrary and hideous marriage.... health care and corporate america. And because people don't know any different- they don't even stop to think about it.

Um, because they provide jobs to a great deal of Americans?

[Burgundy Burner]

I've always wondered what effect our broken and ineffective health care system has on corporate america.

I mean- if I'm Ford or GM and I'm shelling out hundreds of millions to pay for healthcare for my employees and retiress- and I'm expected to be competitive with European and Japanese companies that don't have to worry about it- I might be pissed.

Combine that with the election talking point from LY that said american corporations already pay among the highest taxes of all western countries...

I mean, if I'm a Fortune 500 CEO, I'm bribing every mother****er I know to push thru socialized medicine.

When I ran my own little company, the employees had a choice of healthcare coverage through a small business plan. It was a good deal and each worker chose to take it, but it came out of their salaries - as it should be. Since this was part of a group of small businesses, the costs were kept down.

I got the coverage too. That same plan sustains me today. Having to sell my company due to medical problems (and retiring early) was a bummer. But the insurance company has been 100% in their support and has gone the extra mile for me. So yes, insurance companies are not the debil or some evil corporation.

[zoony]

Um, because they provide jobs to a great deal of Americans?

and that gives them autonomy over which doctor you will see because.... ???

[zoony]

When I ran my own little company, the employees had a choice of healthcare coverage through a small business plan. It was a good deal and each worker chose to take it, but it came out of their salaries - as it should be. Since this was part of a group of small businesses, the costs were kept down.

I got the coverage too. That same plan sustains me today. Having to sell my company due to medical problems (and retiring early) was a bummer. But the insurance company has been 100% in their support and has gone the extra mile for me. So yes, insurance companies are not the debil or some evil corporation.

cool story, good to hear that some insurance companies are like that

However, I think you missed my point

[hkHog]

and that gives them autonomy over which doctor you will see because.... ???

What does this have to do with what we were just discussing? Who said anything about companies picking doctors?

[Burgundy Burner]

cool story, good to hear that some insurance companies are like that

However, I think you missed my point

To answer your points...

I don't think the healthcare system is broken. I'm living proof of it.

No, big companies (and small) should not be in the healthcare business. I wasn't either, but the employees had a good plan that cost me nothing (I paid for my own obviously).

Yes, American companies pay high taxes - I knew that going in and simply worked harder to make it profitable. Healthcare should not be socialized and there is no need for corporate America to fund the healthcare of employees. Again, I am proof that it can work.

As for my situation, I'm fortunate. But it was all my own doing and none of it came from the government.

[chipwhich]

What an absolutely arbitrary and hideous marriage.... health care and corporate america. And because people don't know any different- they don't even stop to think about it.

Oh my costs (INCURRED BY INSERT ANY ENTITY HERE E.G. CORPORATE AMERICA) married to health care

Being fiscally conscious I want to know who all will incur theses costs. It wont just be corporate america....or those making over 200K....but sigh, not many on this board are fiscally conservative. Americans like to spend more than they make, drive up credit card debt, and live beyond their means. Why should I hope the policies being hoped for would be any different?

[zoony]

Oh my costs (INCURRED BY INSERT ANY ENTITY HERE E.G. CORPORATE AMERICA) married to health care

Being fiscally conscious I want to know who all will incur theses costs. It wont just be corporate america....or those making over 200K....but sigh, not many on this board are fiscally conservative. Americans like to spend more than they make, drive up credit card debt, and live beyond their means. Why should I hope the policies being hoped for would be any different?

There are clear benefits to creating economies of scale, however

[alexey]

yes...and a growth rate that sustained improvement for all levels in the standard of living since the 1950s. Obama is going to kill that. we are headed for decades of high unemployment and stagnant growth.

I hope you'll be around in a few years so we can revisit this projection.

[chipwhich]

There are clear benefits to creating economies of scale, however

So my production costs will decrease because my employees are healthier?

[alexey]

what a bunch of *rap. visit your doctor pinhead. you're imputing motives for individuals whose decision calculus is impacted my multiple variables.

At least doctors have "do no harm" rules. Insurance companies do not.

and by the way...you do reveal yourself in the end "desirable outcomes". And you get to decide! what a grand plan for the rest of us.

Reveal? I thought that I was pretty open about my position. I don't want to pay for other people's emergency room visits. I am selfish that way.

[zoony]

So my production costs will decrease because my employees are healthier?

no- people banding together to lower per-unit cost.

I was addressing your issue with saying any entity should have a say in it. There are benefits to that.

It just shouldn't be so hideously tied to profit, imo

[twa]

I don't want to pay for other people's emergency room visits. I am selfish that way.

Do you really believe this bill will reduce what you pay for others care?

I doubt it will even reduce the emergency room backlogs and likely make them worse.

[chipwhich]

no- people banding together to lower per-unit cost.

It just shouldn't be so hideously tied to profit, imo

Gotcha.

And I agree it shouldn't be tied to profit.

In the end, rest assured, companies will not eat these costs, they will be passed on to the employee. But for today, you have to raise the flag and state your peace...be it for profit reasons or personal reasons. After Sunday, forever hold your peace.

[aREDSKIN]

Anyone who believes these bogus numbers are just clueless.

Amazingly to of the Democrats "Home Field" news papers actually accused the CBO numbers of failing the "smell test, The Washington Post and the NY Times.

The WAPO analysis, pointed out that it is just an estimate and no one really knows for sure how the bills costs will really shake out and his particular estimate is more shaky than usual.

Budget experts generally have high praise for the work of CBO analysts, the non-ideological technocrats who crunch the numbers to estimate the fiscal impact of legislation. But their work is often more art than science, and although the forecasts that accompany legislation are always filled with uncertainty, this one contains more than most.

For example, the legislation contains subsidies for those who would not be able to afford health coverage on their own — but the cost of those subsidies could vary a lot depending on how much other elements of the legislation change the price of health insurance, such as through provisions requiring minimum coverage levels.

The New York Times goes even further, pointing out that there was no way the CBO report was going to show numbers that did not work out in favor of Obamacare:

Congressional Democrats have spent more than a year working with the nonpartisan budget office on the health care legislation, and as they fine-tuned many of the bill’s various provisions in recent weeks, they consulted repeatedly with its number-crunchers and the bipartisan staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation. In other words, the overall numbers were never going to miss the mark. Whenever the budget office judged that some element or elements of the bill would cause a problem meeting the cost and deficit-reduction targets, Democrats just adjusted the underlying legislation to make sure it would hit their goal.

continues....http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2010/03/ny-times-and-wash-post-say-cbo-numbers.html

[alexey]

Do you really believe this bill will reduce what you pay for others care?

Yes, if it manages to get some of those visits taken care of using preventative care or at least via the non-emergency route. Both are much, much cheaper.

I doubt it will even reduce the emergency room backlogs and likely make them worse.

Unfortunately this bill does not address the problem of not enough primary care physicians.