Orlando Business Journal: Obama to announce high-speed rail plan

[#98QBKiller]

When this was announced:

http://extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=285523&highlight=high-speed+rail

I was wondering if anything would materialize, looks like it's gonna happen. I like the idea myself.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/stories/2010/01/25/daily19.html

Obama to announce high-speed rail plan

President Barack Obama is planning to follow up his State of the Union address on Wednesday by awarding billions of dollars to develop a high-speed rail plan that he’ll promote as a jobs program, according to an Associated Press report.

Obama and Vice President Joe Biden will be in Tampa for a town hall meeting where the $8 billion in stimulus funds will be announced.

Speculation is growing that Florida will be one of the recipients of funds due to the choice of Tampa as a locale for the announcement. Florida’s proposal is to create a high-speed rail connection between Orlando and Tampa, eventually expanding to include Miami.

Other contenders for the money include California’s proposal for an 800-mile-long rail line from Sacramento to San Diego, as well as a nine-state proposal in the Midwest, the AP reported.

Thirty-one states will receive funds.

[stevenaa]

Sounds like a fossil fuel eating behemoth.

[mjah]

$8 billion / 31 states = about $260 million per recipient state on average.

Obviously some states will get far more and others far less. But even with states ponying up too, this won't get mile 1 of track laid.

It's better than nothing; hopefully a lot of that money will go towards promoting the idea of high speed rail, so as to capture public interest where it makes sense and raise its importance in the public eye. Otherwise, it'll never happen.

I'm also hoping that a lot of that money goes to improve the existing "high" speed rail in the Northeast, seeing as how it's perhaps 70-80% in place already. Acela is a really great riding experience, save for the less-than-overwhelming reduction in travel time. I have to imagine that ridership would improve dramatically if they could really make full use of the trains by improving track quality, securing better priority on shared rights of way, and maybe even establishing new rights-of-way in key congestion areas.

[McD5]

It is supposed to create 23k new, minimum-wage paying jobs here in Orlando.

What Obama won't tell you tonight, is that there is an additional, large payoff to Amtrak, or else it won't go through.

That payoff is expected to be in the hundreds of millions.

Net result?

More smoke and mirrors.

[TimmySmith]

I have to imagine that ridership would improve dramatically if they could really make full use of the trains by improving track quality, securing better priority on shared rights of way, and maybe even establishing new rights-of-way in key congestion areas.

Ridership would improve dramatically if it were economically feasible. $150 for a round trip ticket from here to NY is highway robbery (or should I say train robbery). The government had better take a long look at proposed ticket prices before it dumps billions into this project.

[mjah]

Ridership would improve dramatically if it were economically feasible. $150 for a round trip ticket from here to NY is highway robbery (or should I say train robbery). The government had better take a long look at proposed ticket prices before it dumps billions into this project.

Why is that highway robbery?

You said it's highway robbery, but didn't say why. Please explain.

Once you've taken your turn, then I'll volunteer to give you several reasons why it's not highway robbery (having nothing to do with the obvious lack of either a highway or a robbery).

[Ellis]

It is supposed to create 23k new, minimum-wage paying jobs here in Orlando.

What Obama won't tell you tonight, is that there is an additional, large payoff to Amtrak, or else it won't go through.

That payoff is expected to be in the hundreds of millions.

Net result?

More smoke and mirrors.

Ok, I'm curious. Any details?

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

I actually liked this idea when he first proposed it.

Taking the train to NYC is the best way to get there...I'd do it more often, but the tickets are so damn expensive...its almost like buying a plane ticket.

[McD5]

Ok, I'm curious. Any details?

It has been in Orlando news for the last year.

Details of the payoff to Amtrak for the last month.

There will be a huge payoff to Amtrak, or else it gets shot down.

So.....new low-paying jobs are created, and Amtrak gets a huge cash payoff to play along.

Obama won't mention the cash payoff, that negates many of the benefits.

He will simply focus on supposed new jobs in his speech.

[TimmySmith]

Why is that highway robbery?

You said it's highway robbery, but didn't say why. Please explain.

Once you've taken your turn, then I'll volunteer to give you several reasons why it's not highway robbery (having nothing to do with the obvious lack of either a highway or a robbery).

It's simply too expensive to be a reliable alternative to other means, that is all. Why on earth would I pay $600 to take my family on Amtrak when I can take the bus for $180 or rent a car and drive for $150 or take my own car for the price of gas and tolls. And since Amtrak is subsidized, they have no incentive to lower prices. This rail plan is a loser, unless they make it affordable.

[DRSmith]

Well if anything this proves you can not count on private industry to help things, they need pay offs to do anything, so the government should just run it themselves.

[twa]

Well if anything this proves you can not count on private industry to help things, they need pay offs to do anything, so the government should just run it themselves.

I would imagine that payoff is for their property/right of way.

The govt can't run ****.

[McD5]

Well if anything this proves you can not count on private industry to help things, they need pay offs to do anything, so the government should just run it themselves.

:hysterical: Right.

Tell that to the US Postal system.

How is UPS doing? Fed Ex?

[Wrong Direction]

My first reactions when I saw this headline were:

1. I bet it costs a lot more than $8 billion to build these tracks. $8b is only a very small drop in the bucket. Trains present an enormous physical barrier, requiring many bridges and tunnels, and they effectively cut off two geographies from each other minus a few bridge/tunnel access avenues.

2. I bet the labor costs for building the tracks would be above market value, as they'd probably have to meet union rates.

3. I bet the jobs are guaranteed to be union jobs.

4. I could be supportive in the right marketplace (Miami, Lauderdale, Palm Beach, Cocoa Beach, Daytona, Jacksonville, Orlando, Tampa, Fort Myers makes theoretical sense), but I bet Obama is actually presenting this idea with very costly mandates attached.

[EDIT: 5. Eminent domain. Ugh.]

[JMS]

Sounds like a fossil fuel eating behemoth.

Depends... We have souped up amtrack trains that DC has been telling us are highspeed trains today. They aren't modern high speed trains like Europe, Japan, and China has. We will have to see about this one.

The deal is Trains are about 1000 times more efficent energy wise than cars. you can move two tons of good like 100 miles on a train for the equivelent of a gallon of gas.

Any energy plan must involve rail. High speed rail is just a good selling job.

[PCS]

Feds. State government,(possibly more),Amtack........

Welcome to the grand opening.

[DRSmith]

:hysterical: Right.

Tell that to the US Postal system.

How is UPS doing? Fed Ex?

How do they make deliveries?

Oh yeah using roads built by the government.

Private undustry has no problem piggy backing on what the government does but they do not do much on their own without the government first opening the way.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

How do they make deliveries?

Oh yeah using roads built by the government.

Private undustry has no problem piggy backing on what the government does but they do not do much on their own without the government first opening the way.

Not to mention all packages are shipped with government issued US Postal Stamps.

[mjah]

It's simply too expensive to be a reliable alternative to other means, that is all. Why on earth would I pay $600 to take my family on Amtrak when I can take the bus for $180 or rent a car and drive for $150 or take my own car for the price of gas and tolls.

By that logic, you would never ever fly to any of the destinations you have in mind either. :whoknows:

This just means there are different major transportation demographics out there, and you aren't the Acela's target market. Millions of other people are their target market. I'm one of them; I've taken Acela many times in lieu of flying, driving, or taking the bus.

Example: Philly suburbs to downtown Boston roundtrip, 1 traveler midweek and relatively convenient travel times, planned 3 weeks in advance.

US Air: $1,100 or so (not a typo!), 4 hours door to door each way for a 1 hour flight, meaning 1 hour or less spent working/relaxing/sleeping in cramped conditions, the rest spent in a highly agitated state getting into/through/out of the airport, plus all the airport security BS and extra fees if God forbid you check a bag. Food: not even worth mentioning and you can't bring your own, so you'd better buy something in the terminal before you board. Total inconvenience/incommunicado time: 2.5 - 3 hours.

Driving: $100 in gas and tolls, not including parking, with added costs if you rent, 5 hours door to door each way assuming you don't hit traffic (which you WILL, somewhere), 0 hours spent working/relaxing/sleeping, bring food or stop wherever you want and eat greasy fast food while seated at a plastic table/drop it into the unreachable nethers of your car interior. Total inconvenience/incommunicado time: 5 hours.

Acela: $300 or so, 5.5 - 6 hours door to door each way, 5 of them spent working/relaxing/sleeping in comfort after arriving 10 minutes before the train leaves, food car on the train or just bring your own food. No extra fees. Total inconvenience/incommunicado time: 1 hour or less. Train drops you right downtown.

Bus: Super cheap. See Acela, minus the comfort and highway traffic immunity. Bathrooms are highly variable and can be :paranoid: if they exist at all, unless you go BoltBus/etc. with the college kids.

For business travelers with a small amount of flexibility, the train is the best balance of cost vs. getting-stuff-done time. My wife and I travel for work all the time and the Acela is our go-to preference for trips to NYC, Boston, DC, etc. Given the number of business travelers between DC and Boston, a truly efficient Northeast high speed rail offering (faster than listed above by perhaps an hour) would slaughter the airlines on many of their routes -- routes which, as evidenced by the $1,100 PHL-BOS fare, truly do feel like highway robbery.

By the way: you'd seriously consider taking your family somewhere by bus?

[DieselPwr44]

High speed rail?

Maybe they'll use it to run him out of town?

Don't forget to tip your bartender and waitresses.......

[Midnight Judges]

mjah, dude, you can get a better price on that flight. Way better.

[Hersh]

True high speed rail would be great. I would love to go from Raleigh - DC in two hours. Instead of spending 8 billion, they should spend 200 billion, use US steel to make everything here in America. That would create jobs and keep the money in this country. If you've never experienced High Speed rail, you are missing out.

[TimmySmith]

By that logic, you would never ever fly to any of the destinations you have in mind either. :whoknows:

This just means there are different major transportation demographics out there, and you aren't the Acela's target market. Millions of other people are their target market. I'm one of them; I've taken Acela many times in lieu of flying, driving, or taking the bus.

Example: Philly suburbs to downtown Boston roundtrip, 1 traveler midweek and relatively convenient travel times, planned 3 weeks in advance.

US Air: $1,100 or so (not a typo!), 4 hours door to door each way for a 1 hour flight, meaning 1 hour or less spent working/relaxing/sleeping in cramped conditions, the rest spent in a highly agitated state getting into/through/out of the airport, plus all the airport security BS and extra fees if God forbid you check a bag. Food: not even worth mentioning and you can't bring your own, so you'd better buy something in the terminal before you board. Total inconvenience/incommunicado time: 2.5 - 3 hours.

Driving: $100 in gas and tolls, not including parking, with added costs if you rent, 5 hours door to door each way assuming you don't hit traffic (which you WILL, somewhere), 0 hours spent working/relaxing/sleeping, bring food or stop wherever you want and eat greasy fast food while seated at a plastic table/drop it into the unreachable nethers of your car interior. Total inconvenience/incommunicado time: 5 hours.

Acela: $300 or so, 5.5 - 6 hours door to door each way, 5 of them spent working/relaxing/sleeping in comfort after arriving 10 minutes before the train leaves, food car on the train or just bring your own food. No extra fees. Total inconvenience/incommunicado time: 1 hour or less. Train drops you right downtown.

Bus: Super cheap. See Acela, minus the comfort and highway traffic immunity. Bathrooms are highly variable and can be :paranoid: if they exist at all, unless you go BoltBus/etc. with the college kids.

For business travelers with a small amount of flexibility, the train is the best balance of cost vs. getting-stuff-done time. My wife and I travel for work all the time and the Acela is our go-to preference for trips to NYC, Boston, DC, etc. Given the number of business travelers between DC and Boston, a truly efficient Northeast high speed rail offering (faster than listed above by perhaps an hour) would slaughter the airlines on many of their routes -- routes which, as evidenced by the $1,100 PHL-BOS fare, truly do feel like highway robbery.

By the way: you'd seriously consider taking your family somewhere by bus?

I knew you were a business traveler immediately from your defense of Amtrak. Sure it's great for those who do not pay their own way. But it ain't going to be the NE Regional from Tampa to Orlando. They need paying customers.

Another thing, if I am going to pay $300 to go from DC to Atlanta, I'll fly, thanks.

Lastly, I have taken the bus from DC to NY many times, with my family, and it has been great. If your company will foot our bill, then I'll gladly accept the $800 for Acela. If not I'll pay the $180.

[Duckus]

:hysterical: Right.

Tell that to the US Postal system.

How is UPS doing? Fed Ex?

I never got this argument.

I just sent a letter to my grandfather in England which I do once every couple of months. It costs me $0.84. It goes from my front door to his front door and has never been lost in over 10 years. It arrives a bit over a week after I send it usually.

USP World-Wide "Saver" (:hysterical:) will cost an estimated $48.26 for me to drop of a letter and have it delivered to a USP center near his village (no idea how close that is....but I assume not close as he lives in very rural England).

[McD5]

I never got this argument.

I just sent a letter to my grandfather in England which I do once every couple of months. It costs me $0.84. It goes from my front door to his front door and has never been lost in over 10 years. It arrives a bit over a week after I send it usually.

USP World-Wide "Saver" (:hysterical:) will cost an estimated $48.26 for me to drop of a letter and have it delivered to a USP center near his village (no idea how close that is....but I assume not close as he lives in very rural England).

The postal system is bankrupt.

As is social security.

And everything else the government touches.