Trading Back Into Round 1 - QB and LT

[Going Commando]

what about drafting a sleeper nt later in the rounds too like Martin Tevaseu, from unlv. hes been doing really well from what i have read on espn in the east-west shrine practices. hes 340 the perfect and ideal 2 gaper you want as a n/t and you wont be wasting a high draft pick on him.. so you can address the qb and ot

I haven't heard of this guy but I would be all for finding a sleeper at NT deeper in the draft. If he's lighting up shrine week that's promising. We need someone at NT in the next year or two for sure. There are so few promising prospects at the position. It's probably the same number of quality prospects that come out for NT as QB each year so it's critical we get the position right.

I targeted Dan Williams for this reason. He looks like a good one who could have a Jamaal Williams style impact for us on defense. The guy is just so good playing the run. He slides off blocks with ease and has such a strong base and he's got great instincts for the position, is a natural locating the ball and is athletic enough to break down and wallop guys when he gets a lane. Also, he's got surprisingly good penetrating ability which gives him much more value than Cody IMO.

That we could get Dan Williams as late as 20 is a bit of a stretch but it's not impossible. The only reason it could happen is because this is a completely ridiculous D-line class. He's looking at being the 4th tackle taken and potentially the 7th lineman off the board. Other year's he would be the first. I would do whatever it takes to get him. If we have to move up to around 14, then it's something to consider very strongly. He's got pro-bowl potential. Unless we can strike gold on a sleeper like Tevaseu (Cam Thomas from UNC, Torrell Troup from UCF, Jeff Owens from Georgia are other potential names), our best bets are probably going to be Williams, Cody, or Phil Taylor and Jerrell Powe next year. I'd rather just take Williams now since there are plenty of strong LT candidates on the horizon but not many strong nose tackles.

Say we aren't able to trade both Cooley and Campbell and pick up two extra second rounders. But let's hope we still get one of them. Maybe it will be Campbell, and the deal will happen before the draft. So let's assume he gets us an early second from a team like Buffalo. We could use that pick and our 2011 first to move back into the teens to get Dan Williams. We'd still have that 37th overall pick this year to poach any great prospects that fell. What if it were someone like Bruce Campbell? I would flip my **** in excitement if something like that happened.

But if he doesn't fall, we should still be able to target Charles Brown with that pick and get a solid ZBS LT candidate who should be able to start fairly early. Brown had a really good year of film, he's a good prospect who already has a pretty sound background in the scheme. He gets to the second level well, is athletic enough to engage guys and he sustains his blocks and gives great effort. He's significantly better than Jason Fox and Fox wouldn't be a bad option either.

Then say we're still able to trade Andre Carter for a 3rd and we could turn in a great class by going:

1st - Sam Bradford

1st - Dan Williams

2nd - Charles Brown

3rd - Art Jones

4th - Mitch Petrus

4th - A. J. Edds

7th - BPA

We'd just need a RT instead of a left, but we'd still have our defensive front almost full fleshed out and our quarterback. We'd still have Cooley (or Campbell if we traded Cooley) on the roster too, and we'd only be out our 2011 1st and 5th round picks with only RT, HB as likely needs, or potentially CB / OLB. You could even trade Horton or Doughty to pick up some late picks since it's redundant to have both.

We'd improve rapidly this way.

[flock53]

I've seen and participated in a million threads so far about the quarterback vs. left tackle debate. The one thread that I haven't seen is one to debate the value of trading back into the 1st round to fill both of our major needs. I feel this move would make the majority of ES very happy and give us very talented players at both positions.

In both the 2007 and 2008 drafts, we saw teams apply this strategy to fill there needs at the two most important positions on offense, those teams were the Browns and Falcons, respectively. Now, both teams have had more success with their pick at 3 than their picks at 21 and 22, but this year has an unusually deep draft class and we could likely acquire a more highly regarded prospect than Sam Baker or Brady Quinn. Likewise, this depth would make our 2nd round pick more attractive to a potential trade partner because there will likely be a 1st round talent available.

I would like to begin a discussion on potential scenarios and the pros and cons of the Skins making such a move. My scenario would be that we pick our QB at 4, Bradford is my preference, and target a team in the teens to select the best tackle on the board. At that point in the draft, at least one or more of the big four tackles (Okung, Davis, Bulaga, Campbell) could still be on the board. Okung is considered a top ten guy, but as I have pointed out in other threads, there are more than 10 guys worthy of the top ten and Davis and/or Bulaga could easily leapfrog Okung. Right now, the other 3 tackles have been projected to go anywhere in the 10-32 range.

To pull this move, we would have a couple of options. The easier one would be to package our 2nd rounder with our 2011 1st to move up. I argue that this makes sense because we either get Okung, who was a consideration at #4, or we get one of the three junior tackles who would likely have gone top ten in 2011. Also, this year's junior exodus will deplete much of the 2011 class talent.

The other option I see as a possibility is to target Seattle as a trade partner and send our 2nd, 2011 2nd rounder and Jason Campbell for the #14 pick. They move back 24 slots, but get a future pick and a guy that learned from Hasselback's QB coach, will have a couple of months under Jeremy Bates' old boss, and is a much better insurance than a rookie to stay competitive if Hass is injured again.

So what do you guys think of this approach/scenario or do you have any of your own?

I appreciate the thought BUT hate the idea!! I think we are rebuilding and will need future draft picks. I dont like any QBs this year, ESPECIALLY Bradford w/ 2 injuries to a throwing shoulder :doh: at #4 :doh::doh:. Then drade back up, mortgage the future to get the "left over" OT to PROTECT the fragile QB :doh::doh::doh:

My plan based on an uncapped year, taking all the young talent off the market. I do hope this happens so this team can "clean house". I believe we can move some young guys also.

Resign: Rocky, Carlos, Golston and Hunter (I would give Ganno a chance to pull BOTH duties)

Cut: Portis, Sellers, ARE, and Collins and Rabach.

Trade: Cooley, Moss, Landry and Kelly to Miami for #12 and #44 (1st and 2nd). They need a passing game (wrs)

Draft: #4- A. Davis OT/Rutgers- I believe Okung will be drafted by Lions

#12- Trade down (SEA) w/ 5th rounder for #14 and their 4th. They may want to jump ahead of SF(rival) to get Bradford or BPA.

#14- Trade down (ATL) to #19 and get their 4th. They move up to get their best WR on board.

#19- M. Rolle S/Florida St.- Landrys replacement. Didnt play this year studying at Harvard on Rhodes scholarship. Means hes smart and will be a coach on the field. Was a BEAST year before. 6'2" 220

#36-J.Shipley WR/Texas- Our Wes Welker, runs great routes, great hands and a great return guy. Hopefully hes here. #44-T.Gerhart RB/Stanford- Beast, give him #44 and call him Riggo JR. Agile like Bettis for a big boy and will get the TUFF yards and TDs inside the 5 yd line.

3RD Round- NONE (Jarmon)

4TH Round-Have 3 picks now, either trade back up into 3rd or stay. Regardless I would like to get 2 players w/ these 3 picks. A) J.D. Walton C/Baylor and Moeaki TE/Iowa. Walton is a prospect we might have to trade up to get bottom of 3rd, use the 2 LOWEST 4th rounders. Moeaki is a great TE that can do everything Cooley can AND block.

As far as 5th and beyond: BPA at LB

Free Agency: Willie Parker and Kevin Meawai. Parker I believe still has speed and will be a complement to Gerhart. Beat defenses up w/ Toby and then hit em w/ speed. I learned this from Gibbs 1.0. Meawai would be a 1-2 bandaid as Walton learns from one of the best. I could see Kevin as a OL coach after playing days also.

I also hope we dont switch to a 3-4. We DONT have enough LB depth and RAK needs to go to DE full time, he ISNT a LB. Haynesworth will be an undersized NT and way overpaid to suck up blockers so the LBs can make the tackles and sacks.

[Skins93077]

thats why the shrine game and practices are so fun and key to watch.. these college kids do good and there stock goes up... thats huge $$$.. dan williams from tenn would be good but how could we get him and bradford in the 1st without giving up next years 1st? or draft dan williams and a ot like davis and not give up next years 1st?

im all for getting another 1st but i would not trade next years 1st to get back in the 1st. i would rather trade cooley, carlos rodgers, campbell and a mid pick to get back into the 1st and still keep next years 1st rounder.

weve made mistakes huge in the past.. lets not repeat them.

[gorebd82]

I haven't heard of this guy but I would be all for finding a sleeper at NT deeper in the draft. If he's lighting up shrine week that's promising. We need someone at NT in the next year or two for sure. There are so few promising prospects at the position. It's probably the same number of quality prospects that come out for NT as QB each year so it's critical we get the position right.

I targeted Dan Williams for this reason. He looks like a good one who could have a Jamaal Williams style impact for us on defense. The guy is just so good playing the run. He slides off blocks with ease and has such a strong base and he's got great instincts for the position, is a natural locating the ball and is athletic enough to break down and wallop guys when he gets a lane. Also, he's got surprisingly good penetrating ability which gives him much more value than Cody IMO.

I really like the Dan Williams idea. He would be a great NT in the 3-4 and can play the 1 technique in the 4-3. He would provide much more than Cody because he has the endurance to stay on the field and can be great as a space-eater or penetrator. As I've said before, I think we need to do whatever it takes to handle the QB, LT and NT positions. I honestly could be satisfied with almost anyone we draft with our remaining picks if we can fill 2 of those 3 positions with stud players. That's really why I started this thread about trading back into the 1st round.

I would really like to target a trade for Seattle's later pick in the first, #14. They seem like an excellent trade partner for Jason Campbell. Based on Pete Carroll's comments about junior QBs, I don't see him drafting Jimmy Clausen. I can't see them passing up Derrick Morgan or Eric Berry for Okung, Davis, or Clausen. I'm sure we could send them our 2nd rounder, Jason Campbell and a 2011 pick to move up to #14. And that 2011 pick wouldn't be a 1st. Jason Campbell can take the reins in 2011 and he gives them an immediate starter if Hasselback goes down this season. That's a better option than taking Colt McCoy in the 2nd. The Hawks would now have a QB, 2 top ten picks in the second round, and an extra pick in 2011.

If we could move into that spot, I would bet that at least one of the three between Okung, Anthony Davis, or Dan Williams will be there. I would be thoroughly satisfied if we can get Bradford and one of those guys. Then we would be able to address whichever position is unsettled in the first next year. I'm actually most doubtful that Dan Williams will be there. He's the 4th best tackle, but I feel he'll be the 3rd drafted. With Denver and Miami sitting at 11 and 12, I don't think the top NT on the board will make it by them.

QB, LT and NT are where we should focus our resources. If we get those positions settled, the rest of the puzzle will come together. We need to do everything we can to get a second pick in the 1st round this year. I'd prefer we not trade next year's 1st, but that means we have to part with the Campbells, Cooleys, and Carters. Two 1st round picks in 2010 and our 2011 pick should be dedicated to those positions.

[#1skinsfanever]

I don't believe that a team that went 4-12, is implementing a new offensive scheme, has plenty of holes on the offensive line and a question mark at quarterback, has new coaches, and is implementing a new defensive scheme would be wise to trade away its 1st round pick in the following year. If you trade that 2011 1st round pick, it's going to be valued like a 2010 2nd round pick, even though it could very well end up being a top 5 or 10 pick.

I like the idea of trading down, not up.

Agree 100%

[texasthunder]

I haven't heard of this guy but I would be all for finding a sleeper at NT deeper in the draft. If he's lighting up shrine week that's promising. We need someone at NT in the next year or two for sure. There are so few promising prospects at the position. It's probably the same number of quality prospects that come out for NT as QB each year so it's critical we get the position right.

I targeted Dan Williams for this reason. He looks like a good one who could have a Jamaal Williams style impact for us on defense. The guy is just so good playing the run. He slides off blocks with ease and has such a strong base and he's got great instincts for the position, is a natural locating the ball and is athletic enough to break down and wallop guys when he gets a lane. Also, he's got surprisingly good penetrating ability which gives him much more value than Cody IMO.

That we could get Dan Williams as late as 20 is a bit of a stretch but it's not impossible. The only reason it could happen is because this is a completely ridiculous D-line class. He's looking at being the 4th tackle taken and potentially the 7th lineman off the board. Other year's he would be the first. I would do whatever it takes to get him. If we have to move up to around 14, then it's something to consider very strongly. He's got pro-bowl potential. Unless we can strike gold on a sleeper like Tevaseu (Cam Thomas from UNC, Torrell Troup from UCF, Jeff Owens from Georgia are other potential names), our best bets are probably going to be Williams, Cody, or Phil Taylor and Jerrell Powe next year. I'd rather just take Williams now since there are plenty of strong LT candidates on the horizon but not many strong nose tackles.

Say we aren't able to trade both Cooley and Campbell and pick up two extra second rounders. But let's hope we still get one of them. Maybe it will be Campbell, and the deal will happen before the draft. So let's assume he gets us an early second from a team like Buffalo. We could use that pick and our 2011 first to move back into the teens to get Dan Williams. We'd still have that 37th overall pick this year to poach any great prospects that fell. What if it were someone like Bruce Campbell? I would flip my **** in excitement if something like that happened.

But if he doesn't fall, we should still be able to target Charles Brown with that pick and get a solid ZBS LT candidate who should be able to start fairly early. Brown had a really good year of film, he's a good prospect who already has a pretty sound background in the scheme. He gets to the second level well, is athletic enough to engage guys and he sustains his blocks and gives great effort. He's significantly better than Jason Fox and Fox wouldn't be a bad option either.

Then say we're still able to trade Andre Carter for a 3rd and we could turn in a great class by going:

1st - Sam Bradford

1st - Dan Williams

2nd - Charles Brown

3rd - Art Jones

4th - Mitch Petrus

4th - A. J. Edds

7th - BPA

We'd just need a RT instead of a left, but we'd stilhink l have our defensive front almost full fleshed out and our quarterback. We'd still have Cooley (or Campbell if we traded Cooley) on the roster too, and we'd only be out our 2011 1st and 5th round picks with only RT, HB as likely needs, or potentially CB / OLB. You could even trade Horton or Doughty to pick up some late picks since it's redundant to have both.

We'd improve rapidly this way.

Steve-

I like yout idea of a NT in the late 1st.

But if Shanahan picks up a NFL player for NT, what do you thing about still following your trade senario, but instead of getting Williams, grab Baluga, and then get Kyle Calloway in a later round. That would take care of the right and left tackle slots.

[HailGreen28]

What's the general rule on trading a pick in this draft for a pick next year, for roughly equal "value"?

Is it always a pick for a pick one round higher next year? A 2nd rounder this year worth a 1st rounder next year? A 4th this year worth a 3rd next year?

[Veretax]

Generally next years picks are worth a round later.this year. I'm not sure about trading back to next year though.

[HailGreen28]

Generally next years picks are worth a round later.this year. I'm not sure about trading back to next year though.

I'm trying to take a long view. We should spend the next couple years rebuilding and stocking players, not trading up to get "the last piece of the puzzle".

Trading back in this draft makes sense because we have so many holes, and supposedly our scouting dept. wasn't a weakness: just Vinny.

If this draft doesn't have the QB talent or overall talent that next year's draft probably will, trading for next year might make sense.

[NoVaSkins21]

I'm all for the idea of getting a possible franchise QB and LT, but except for the fact that that they will have give up picks this year and possible future picks.

[Going Commando]

What's the general rule on trading a pick in this draft for a pick next year, for roughly equal "value"?

Is it always a pick for a pick one round higher next year? A 2nd rounder this year worth a 1st rounder next year? A 4th this year worth a 3rd next year?

Early in the draft, that's typically how it works. A second equals a first and so on. But when you trade a first for future picks, the value can become really high. If you trade a top 16 first round pick, you could probably get a future first, a current second, and then at least another mid round pick. If it's a top ten pick, you would probably get a mid-late current first and a future first and another mid round pick like a 3rd.

[Going Commando]

I really like the Dan Williams idea. He would be a great NT in the 3-4 and can play the 1 technique in the 4-3. He would provide much more than Cody because he has the endurance to stay on the field and can be great as a space-eater or penetrator. As I've said before, I think we need to do whatever it takes to handle the QB, LT and NT positions. I honestly could be satisfied with almost anyone we draft with our remaining picks if we can fill 2 of those 3 positions with stud players. That's really why I started this thread about trading back into the 1st round.

I would really like to target a trade for Seattle's later pick in the first, #14. They seem like an excellent trade partner for Jason Campbell. Based on Pete Carroll's comments about junior QBs, I don't see him drafting Jimmy Clausen. I can't see them passing up Derrick Morgan or Eric Berry for Okung, Davis, or Clausen. I'm sure we could send them our 2nd rounder, Jason Campbell and a 2011 pick to move up to #14. And that 2011 pick wouldn't be a 1st. Jason Campbell can take the reins in 2011 and he gives them an immediate starter if Hasselback goes down this season. That's a better option than taking Colt McCoy in the 2nd. The Hawks would now have a QB, 2 top ten picks in the second round, and an extra pick in 2011.

If we could move into that spot, I would bet that at least one of the three between Okung, Anthony Davis, or Dan Williams will be there. I would be thoroughly satisfied if we can get Bradford and one of those guys. Then we would be able to address whichever position is unsettled in the first next year. I'm actually most doubtful that Dan Williams will be there. He's the 4th best tackle, but I feel he'll be the 3rd drafted. With Denver and Miami sitting at 11 and 12, I don't think the top NT on the board will make it by them.

QB, LT and NT are where we should focus our resources. If we get those positions settled, the rest of the puzzle will come together. We need to do everything we can to get a second pick in the 1st round this year. I'd prefer we not trade next year's 1st, but that means we have to part with the Campbells, Cooleys, and Carters. Two 1st round picks in 2010 and our 2011 pick should be dedicated to those positions.

In a heartbeat I would trade Campbell, Carter and Cooley if it meant we settled our QB, LT, and NT situations this year. I would also trade Fletcher (if he had any value) Horton/Doughty (one but not the other) Carlos (if he got me more than a single 4th), and Rocky (if he got me a third or higher).

I think you are right about one of Dan Williams, Russell Okung, and Anthony Davis having a good chance of being available at 14. Let's assume Dan Williams gets taken by Miami and Davis is the one available.

What about this scenario:

- we trade Cooley ahead of time to pick up a second and fifth (the Kellen Winslow deal)

- trade Carter ahead of time and pick up an early third (the Derrick Burgess deal)

- trade Horton ahead of time and pick up a fifth (half of the Ellis Hobbs deal)

- trade Cambell on draft day (after we draft Sam Bradford at 4) along with Fletcher to pick up an early second (the Matt Cassel deal.)

Going by CBS' rankings for value, our draft unfolds:

rd 1 - Sam Bradford at 4

rd 1 - Trade our seconds up to 14 and draft Anthony Davis

rd 3 - Art Jones / Rodger Saffold

rd 4 - Mitch Petrus

rd 4 - (trade two fifths for a 4th and 6th) A. J. Edds

rd 5 - Andrew Quarless

rd 6 - Walter Thurmond

rd 7 - LeGarrette Blount

The 2011 first round pick is still on the table. I think we should strongly consider trading it to move back into the second of Terrence Cody starts to drop. This is a special class to have two potential starting nose tackles available. If we miss out on Williams, Cody is a good consolation and he definitely has the athleticism to be a good starter. If you can control his weight he'll be a force as he has rare movement for a man his size, and he should get better as you move him down into a more manageable 330-340 pound range.

Anyway, that class would set us at QB, LT, and NT, get us a replacement for Cooley's loss in value with Quarless (who is a major sleeper), pick up a solid future starting guard in Petrus, a versatile future starting linebacker in Edds, a developmental corner with upside in Thurmond, and a complimentary back in Blount. Rodger Saffold could be a good option in the third but I chose Jones since he's more talented and still fills a need. We can always target guys like Ziemba and Barksdale in the second round next year. Our team looks pretty good after those picks:

2010:

QB: Collins, Brennan, Sam Bradford

HB: Portis, LeGarrette Blount, Anthony Aldridge?

FB: Eddie Williams?

WR: Thomas, Kelly, Moss, Randle El, Mitchell

TE: Davis, Yoder, Andrew Quarless

LT: Anthony Davis, Heyer?

LG: Dockery, Mitch Petrus, Edwin Williams

OC: Lichtensteiger, Williams

RG: Rinehart, Petrus, Williams

RT: Levi Jones, Heyer?

Base 3-4

LE: Art Jones, Golston, Alexander

NT: Terrence Cody, Monty, Haynesworth

RE: Haynesworth, Golston, Alexander

Rush LB: Jarmon, Orakpo, Wilson

Mack: McItosh, Henson

Buck: Blades, A. J. Edds

Elephant: Orakpo, Edds, Wilson

CB: Hall, Rogers, Tryon, Barnes, Thurmond

FS: Moore, Landry, Barnes?, FA

SS: Landry, Doughty

That's a pretty good start on a rebuild. It looks like our long term needs would still be

- RT

- HB (needs a fast lead back)

- OC (if Lichtensteiger/Williams fails)

- Mack ILB (if McIntosh fails)

- CB (If Rogers fails and so does Barnes)

- FS (if Moore fails and we want to keep Landry at SS)

- and Elephant LB (If Jarmon fails and we are forced to move Orakpo over to the rush spot).

RT and HB will be certain needs, the others are conditional. That's an incredibly good haul for a single draft with a horrible free agency crop.

[Going Commando]

Steve-

I like yout idea of a NT in the late 1st.

But if Shanahan picks up a NFL player for NT, what do you thing about still following your trade senario, but instead of getting Williams, grab Baluga, and then get Kyle Calloway in a later round. That would take care of the right and left tackle slots.

I would do it for Bulaga for sure. I think he's a really good bet with a good future as a starting OT.

As for Calloway, (it might be obvious from my tremendous regard for Bulaga, Moekai, Clayborn, and Edds) I've watched some Iowa games this year. For some reason I'm not a huge fan of the guy. He just seems to lack explosiveness so that I don't think he'll ever be a very great starter. He plays with good technique and that whole Iowa line is clearly well coached. But he's just doesn't have that explosive quality to be a great pass protector and run blocker and a big part of this is that he doesn't have great feet. I think he can be a decent starter or very good backup kind of like Marshall Yanda as another former Iowa guy. I'd rather go for a guy like Rodger Saffold from Indiana in that range because he looks like a pretty good athlete and I like what he's accomplished this shrine week. He already looked like a pretty good fit in a ZBS inside, but I think he's solidified himself in that second to third tier of offensive tackles.

I also would love to target Sergio Render from VT late in the draft because he's an impressive guy. I think he's one of the strongest linemen in the class. I don't know if he'll put up a ton of reps at the combine but you can see his strength as an anchor against the rush. He can stone some of the most powerful interior linemen in college. I think it speaks volumes what he did in the Nebraska game last year. Make no mistake, Suh still had a really good day against Tech but Render was able to retain his dignity and manhood against him. He fared a lot better than most of the other guys Suh faced and he had the strength to go toe to toe with Terrence Cody as well. I think we could potentially come away with our future starting guards if we drafted him and Mitch Petrus in rounds 4 and 5.

I have us taking Art Jones in the third round of most of my scenarios because he's a great fit and a great talent. He's a much, much better DT/3-4 DE than Jason Fox, Selvish Capers, Rodger Saffold, and Kyle Calloway are offensive tackles. He's definitely a future starter and he can probably start from day 1 and assume a leadership role early in his career. Jones is a guy who, had he come out last year would have been a surefire first round pick. But he got hurt and this is a stacked class, so I think we'll have a shot at him in the third which is tremendous value.

[Skins Fan 2932]

I posted most of this in a separate thread already. http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=316110

In that thread I voted for keeping JC and trading down because the only player I think is worth our #4 pick is Ndamukong Suh. After stating this, I would be shocked and giddy all at once, (like I was last year with Orakpo) if Ndamukong Sue was still on the board at 4. I lean more towards fixing the O line but if he was there, I would draft him and deal with the O line in later picks. I think we all would agree that one O lineman is not all we need even if it is a LT. I believe his talent is too good to pass up if you have the chance. Some will disagree but if what the majority of analysts are saying is true about him being the best DL prospect to come out with his skills since Reggie White… Then you have to at least admit that whichever O lineman / QB may be available now, could be replicated in another draft down the road when the selection is better and not filled with questions of “could he be the one”. I mean seriously, if you look at who we all have been talking about at our 4 spot, they all have some weakness, question or flaw. I haven’t heard many of those for Sue. If someone has seen or read about one from a credible source, please post it. Think of it this way. If you were an offensive coordinator that had to game plan for Haynesworth, Sue, Orakpo, Carter and the rest of the front 7 coming after you every play, who would you double team and at what risk? It doesn’t even matter if we are in a 3-4 or 4-3 to me even though I prefer the 4-3. Double-teaming more than one of them causes you problems. Leaving them in zone blocking or man up is still a problem. Having them makes the rest of your defensive players that much better. Pockets wouldn’t last long, running lanes would be hard to find and it would simply seem like you have too many men to block at one time. But my slobbering for Ndamukong Suh should be in another post.

I think we should at least tender an offer to Campbell to have him around to compete for the starting job. Who knows, someone might negotiate a good trade for him but we won’t know his value if we just let him go. It’s still possible he might actually continue to get better with a system more suited to his skills and a little more talent around him.

I am not in favor of trading any of next years picks to move up this year. I would also prefer not to trade Cooley or Landry. Cooley is one of our best threats on offence when healthy and I like the idea of possible two TE sets with an improved line. With Cooley in his traditional H-Back role, it would keep defenses guessing (especially if we had a RB like Gerhart or Mathews). Landry would be better suited at SS anyway so who are we going to have play safety for us if he is traded. As far as we know Haslett might actually understand how to channel Landry’s skills and talents better than Blache. Whereas I can see the value of getting a NT for our supposed switch to a 3-4, let’s not shed future picks to do it. Get your value where it is if it’s there but not by reaching for it hoping that the player pans out and hoping you didn’t give up too much to have the chance. As many have already stated, you would think we would have learned from our recent and not to recent history about trading future picks for possibilities.

As I stated at the beginning of this post, I’m in favor of drafting Ndamukong Suh if he is there. Failing that, with no other trade down possibilities, I would take the best OT that our scouts rated. It wouldn’t kill me if we ended up with Bradford or Clausen, I’m just not high on them right now. I would prefer that we traded down though. I’m not one to say trade down just because it sounds good. I think if you decide to trade down, you have to have an idea of where to and who you think might be there that you want. You also have to think of what you would realistically take in return for your pick. We have all seen the trade chart. http://www.drafttek.com/tradechart.html I think it is too top heavy in value so I would actually take less if I truly wanted to trade down. To put my money where my mouth is, this is what I would do if I had the power.

I think these trades and players are within reason but it’s still too early to know. Assuming Ndamukong Suh, is gone, I would trade our #4 for Seattle’s #6 and #102 (4th). I would then trade the #6 to San Francisco for their #13 and #49 (2nd). I would trade our #37 (2nd) to New England for their #42 (2nd) and #118 (4th). Obviously these teams would have to want someone in those spots and be willing to trade but hopefully you can see my line of thought and where I think we can get what we want and still fill some holes.

These would be my picks:

#13 Brian Bulaga, OT Iowa

#42 Ryan Mathews RB Fresno State or Toby Gerhart, RB Stanford

#49 Kyle Calloway, OT Iowa

#101 Dexter McCluster, RB Mississippi

#102 Sean Canfield, QB Oregon St

#118 A.J. Edds OLB Iowa

#132 (5th) BPA

#196 (7th) BPA

Compensational picks BPA

There are others in this thread that had similar thoughts on some of my players so I feel good about that. I actually was glad to see someone else liked lesser known guys like A.J. Edds and Kyle Calloway out of Iowa. Props to you! I know there are a lot of Iowa Hawkeyes here. I’m not a Hawkeye homer! I am actually a diehard Wolverine fan. (I know! I know! My Michigan Wolverines suck too! But I firmly believe that both of my football teams will be back were we belong soon.) I have seen these Iowa guys play and I was very impressed. Hopefully you will check them out.

Here are my thoughts on these players and some brief info and links. Youtube has some great highlights of them if you have the time.

Brian Bulaga:

Did anyone see the Georgia Tech / Iowa game? He and Calloway completely shut down Derrick Morgan who is a projected 1st Rd DE. We might be able to get a different OT here but he is the one I trust the most this far down. At worst he ends up being our RT with Calloway our RG. Even that would be great for us if we found a better LT elsewhere.

http://www.draftboardinsider.com/cgi-bin/prospect.cgi?id=761

Ryan Mathews:

We all know about the year that Gerhart had, Mathews had 63 less rushing yards than Gerhart with 8 less TD’s. I would rather have Mathews but I would take either one!

http://www.draftboardinsider.com/cgi-bin/prospect.cgi?id=1119

Toby Gerhart:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjLh_yO41jw

This is from www.thehuddlereport.com

STRENGTHS

Toby is a smart, powerful and versatile RB who has excellent quickness to the hole. He shows good balance as well as lean and quick feet. He is a very good blocker and understands situational football. Toby doesn't set up his blockers, but he sure knows how to follow them through the hole to get to the second level. He is fast enough to turn the corner and powerful enough to run through the tackles. When Toby gets past the line of scrimmage, he shows another gear and, along with his power, that gear makes it very difficult for safeties and CB's to tackle him. He shows very good hands out of the backfield and down the field. Toby is a weapon. He is the type of player who gives an offense the versatility it needs to be successful.

NEEDS TO IMPROVE

All Toby needs is for NFL coaches to realize how much of a weapon a player with Toby's skills is. Toby doesn't have 4.3 speed, but that doesn't mean that Toby is not an impact player. Give him a chance to play and you will see for yourself.

BOTTOM LINE

Toby reminds me of a player who helped make the West Coast Offense successful when the 49ers first introduced it. Anybody who played with Tom Rathman will tell you that the success of that offense was due to Tom Rathman's versatility. He could block like a fullback, run like a running back, move like an H-back, catch the ball down the field like a TE and pick up blitzes in the passing game like an offensive tackle. Tom Rathman was listed as a fullback, but the truth is that Tom was an every down back. Toby Gerhart has this type of talent -- he's versatile, has football intelligence and, if used correctly, will become an every down back for the team that drafts him…

Kyle Calloway:

Not much out there yet but we will soon hear more after the Senior Bowl and Combine. This is from www.thehuddlereport.com

STRENGTHS

Kyle has excellent size, strength and feet to play his position. He is a right tackle with a left tackle heart. By that, I mean he takes pride in pass blocking and protecting his QB. He is a powerful run blocker and does a very good job blocking in space and moving to the next level. Most of the time he is not covered up when blocking on passing plays with a TE. He does not get overpowered when being bull rushed. Kyle is smart, shows mental stamina and does not get beat by the same move twice if he gets beat at all. I suspect that once Kyle works out at the combine, he will show enough athletic talent to play left tackle at the next level. However, even if he does not, Kyle (right now) shows Pro Bowl right tackle skills.

NEEDS TO IMPROVE

He is stronger than most of the players he plays against right now and does get up too high at times. He gets a little lazy when pass blocking once he drives his man past his QB and looks to help his line mates out a little too quickly. All of this is nit picking and can all be corrected.

BOTTOM LINE

I'm calling him Kyle (Right Away) Calloway because you can draft this kid and plug him into your offensive line at the right tackle position right away. He can play Right tackle in his sleep, but I believe he could also play the left tackle position also at a very high level. I will be surprised if by the time the draft comes around he is not considered a top draft choice, but I have been surprised before. You are talking about an offensive lineman who can pass block, run block, has the athletic agility to go out to the second level and combo block, can move out and block on screen plays and can be used in a pulling system.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/563056

Dexter McCluster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp3RL2s5BV0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COpTlPC1go0

I learned about him here on ES. http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=309534&highlight=Dexter+McCluster

I see him as a 3rd down back / slot receiver and a PR / KR guy. Imagine having him on a 3rd down draw or screen play. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1137461

Sean Canfield:

I know! Most of you are saying “Who”? I was sorting through QB stats and did the same thing. I believe that accuracy is more important than arm strength, pro sets translate better to the NFL than spread systems, and reading defenses is more important than athleticism. I was looking at completion % for all the usual QB’s people want to draft for us this year or next.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/stats/playersort/NCAAF/QB/regularseason?&_1:col_1=6 Here’s a quick breakdown.

Player Team GP ATT COMP PAC% PAYD PAYA INT PATD

Colt McCoy Texas 14 470 332 70.6 3521 7.5 12 27

Case Keenum Houston 14 700 492 70.3 5671 8.1 15 44

Dan LeFevour Central Mich 14 456 318 69.7 3438 7.5 7 28

Sam Bradford 07 Oklahoma 14 341 237 69.5 3121 9.6 8 36

Jimmy Clausen Notre Dame 12 425 289 68.0 3722 8.8 4 28

Sean Canfield OregonState 13 446 303 67.9 3271 7.3 7 21

Sam Bradford 08 Oklahoma 14 483 328 67.9 4720 9.8 8 50

Tim Tebow Florida 14 314 213 67.8 2895 9.2 5 21

Kellen Moore BoiseState 14 431 277 64.3 3536 8.2 3 39

Levi Brown Troy 13 504 321 63.7 4254 8.4 9 23

Jarrett Brown West Virginia 13 296 187 63.2 2144 7.2 9 11

Todd Reesing Kansas 12 496 313 63.1 3616 7.3 10 22

Tony Pike Cincinnati 10 338 211 62.4 2520 7.5 6 29

Tim Hiller W. Michigan 12 514 309 60.1 3249 6.3 13 23

Jake Locker Washington 12 394 230 58.4 2800 7.1 11 21

Jonathan Crompton Tennessee 13 384 224 58.3 2800 7.3 13 27

Sam Bradford 09 Oklahoma 3 69 39 56.5 562 8.1 0 2

Ryan Mallett Arkansas 13 403 225 55.8 3624 9.0 7 30

Jevan Snead Mississippi 13 351 191 54.4 2632 7.5 20 20

I’ll admit that I don’t know what kind of system all of these guys were in, but Clausen and Canfield both definitely ran a pro set and the guys that I’m not sure about are towards the bottom. I added Bradford’s 07 and 08 seasons because I know how some of you can get, not because of a point I’m trying to make. After Clausen and Bradford in whichever order…you choose, I want Canfield. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/565146

A.J. Edds:

He is my other Iowa Hawkeye player. www.thehuddlereport.com had this to say.

STRENGTHS

AJ is a complete LB who has the athletic talent, intelligence and instincts to play any one of the linebacker positions for the team that drafts him. He has excellent speed to go along with his size. He has excellent man-to-man cover skills to defend against TE's and those big slot receivers. A J is a head up, wrap up, squeeze and drive tackler who can cut on a dime and change direction. He has an excellent burst of speed to the ball and can cover those sneaky tailbacks coming out of the back field in the flat. Out of all the senior linebackers in this draft A J is the best and will be the safest pick... just like Aaron Curry was last year…

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1243684

Compensation picks, 5th and 7th round picks are a crap shoot. I believe in BPA that far down.

[Going Commando]

I really don't think Gerhart is going to be good for us so I wouldn't draft him. I just don't think he has the ability to create for himself before the LoS and we are going to move towards a ZBS where it's essential a back be able to do that. He lacks burst and shimmy. He might be a good straight line runner but I think he's too limited to give us a ton of value in the second round. I imagine he'd be used like Peyton Hillis has been in Denver--a lot of toss plays and short yardage situations. I'm just not sure that's good value for us in the second or third round in such a stacked class. I think we can get a guy who's even better than Gerhart for the thumper role in LeGarrette Blount much later in the draft. He could even go undrafted. Blount ran in an east-west running game at Oregon like we would see here and excelled so I think he could thrive in that Hillis role. He's got rare balance and lateral quickness for his size and he's got the strength to get yards on his own.

I watched some Colts this weekend. They run a pretty pure zone blocking scheme and watching Donald Brown, he looks a lot like Ryan Matthews in build and style. Maybe he could be a pretty good fit here, but I suspect he's another one of those guys who'd do best getting a bunch of carries. I think we should be looking more for a set of backs that specialize in doing a couple of things really well. I see you are on this track by highlighting Dexter McCluster but I think Best is a better athlete and weapon than McCluster and he's also got a little better top end speed. I think we would be much better off drafting Jahvid Best somewhere in the second round because of his rare suddenness and explosion and elite top gear. McCluster doesn't have that same level of initial burst so I think he'd be limited to being used in space kind of like Reggie Bush is. Best runs downhill really well just like Chris Johnson which makes him perfect as the lead back in a zone scheme when complimented by a bruiser like Blount. Best could get you 1,000 yards on less than 300 carries a year when healthy and you'd probably get another several hundred from Blount. Together, they'd give you a pretty dynamic running game.

As for Calloway, I've seen him play a couple of times and he's certainly an option for RT because of his background in the ZBS. He's smart and he does a good job handling the edge, off blocking, and moving on to the second level. He's got good instincts and recognition but again, I don't think he's a very explosive player. I don't see that punch and rapidity off the line that typifies zone guys.

I think explosion is an often overlooked quality in offensive linemen and it's especially critical for zone guys who rely on initial quickness to win a lot of those match-ups with defensive linemen, especially if they have to punch, cut, or drive. This is the main reason I like Anthony Davis and Bryan Bulaga so much better than Okung for scheme. Okung lacks explosion throughout his game that Davis and Bulaga (and most elite, first round tackles) have. I think he would struggle as a run blocker even though he's a good pass protector and handles the edge fairly well. It's also why I think Mitch Petrus is such a good prospect for us. When you watch him play he always fires our of his stance before everyone else and can hold up, if not downright level guys who are much more powerful than he is.

I think Calloway could succeed here and if nothing else, he's a powerful guy who would be a better anchor in pass pro than Stephon Heyer that's for damn sure. He also seems like a smart, mature player which are huge positives in his favor. But I suspect a guy like Rodger Saffold is a better athlete with higher potential as a RT in a zone scheme and I would probably target him ahead of Calloway. Ultimately, it's pretty close between them and probably should come down to an evaluation of intangibles. Calloway has experience in a ZBS so that might make him a more attractive prospect and I wouldn't cry if we picked him in a third round range. He's probably got as much talent as Ryan Harris does and he's been really successful early on for Denver.

[bird_1972]

So if Bradford/Clausen is there at pick #4, the phone rings and Seattle say they want to trade picks, plus some.

Do you make the trade and pick up a QB in later rounds ?

Or do you still grab the QB ?

It depends on a lot of what happens with these guys between now and the draft, but now I'd lean heavily towards taking Seattle's 2 picks plus whatever else they are offering.

My gut tells me they aren't going to make an offer for either of those guys.

[Skins Fan 2932]

stevemcqueen1 -

I actually agree with you on Gerhart. That is why I prefered Mathews over him. Mid 2nd RD is a bit high for Gerhart's skill set. To be honest, I haven't done much research into Blount. I was watching the game when he threw that punch though. You may be right there as well. I'll do some more checking.

I hear people talking about Best and comparing him to Johnson. So you are saying that you would rather have Best and Blount in the backfield. I like Mathews thump as he hits the holes. He has some wiggle to him as well. Did you look at the youtube videos for Mathews? I'm not as high on Best as others but I would consider it. I'm trying to get a feel on Best's duribility at the next level. I'll have to watch more video on him to gauge how his game would compliment others. My love for McCluster is his versitility. He can also play in the slot and on special teams.

On our linemen, I think we will get a better feel after the Senior Bowl. My thinking with my Calloway pick was that I wanted someone that could be a RT or RG. I like versitility. I would even go with Maurkice Pouncy, the C / G out of Florida some where in the late 2nd if I couldn't get my RT. I will keep my eye out for Safford at the Senior Bowl. I totally agree with your comments regarding Okung. People want him at #4 and I'm not sure he is even the best OT. I'm still looking at Davis. I've read he gets lazy and would be a better fit at RT but I haven't seen it with my own eyes so who knows. The same goes for Campbell from Maryland. I haven't seen enough of him to be able to seperate him from others.

[Veretax]

I think Donald Brown in the games I've seen of the colts hasn't looked so good as a RB compared to Adai...

[HitStickTaylor21]

Word on the street is Buffalo is looking for a new QB. I wouldn't mind trading down from #4 to #9 and picking up extra picks, probably still in a position to get the 2nd- or 3rd-rated tackle in the draft, which could fit our zone blocking scheme and additional picks.

I don't are about getting a QB this year, I like next years crop of talent better anyway. Build the line this year and settle into the offense's running scheme and finish off the process next year.

[Going Commando]

I think Donald Brown in the games I've seen of the colts hasn't looked so good as a RB compared to Adai...

He's been hurt this year but he looked pretty decent in the game last night. He's a lot stronger than Addai but he's not as quick. Both of them are more impressive than I thought. Each pick up the blitz really well and by Manning time.

I'm less impressed with the Colts offensive line. They seem to pass protect fairly well because Manning gets an awful lot of time but I was not impressed with their running game. They struggled to open holes all night and it's not like any team can key on the run with them. And in short yardage situations they just had no ability to drive at all. That no huddle QB sneak they tried to run was absolutely pathetic. NY's defensive line wasn't all that impressive without Jenkins and the Colts got absolutely no push against them on a critical play.

[Going Commando]

The senior bowl weigh ins are in and now more than ever I think we should be targeting Dan Williams as our NT. If we trade back into the first, I hope it's for him and not an OT (unless Davis drops). Williams was a 360 pound freshman at TN and has since toned down to mid 320's and he carries his weight in all of the right places. Wes Bunting says he has the biggest bubble and thighs he's ever seen. He talks about how Williams could just sit in his stance all day without ever moving. He's shaping up like a Vince Wilfork type.

Gotta love how homo-erotic scouting is...

Also I'd really shy away from drafting Cody. The boy is just too freaking fat. He weighed in at 370 pounds...

[cowboykiller00]

i agree.we need to draft left tackle 1sr rd,trade cooley for pro bowl off.lineman,2 nd rd draft best rb or saftey,if we take a rb in rd.2 sign free agent saftey,rd 4 draft kicker.the rest of the rounds draft best player available.we might be able to sign a solid free agent kicker.my plan improves our line,gets us a good maybe great rb,saftey help and solid kicker for a change.let me know what yall think

[Veretax]

He's been hurt this year but he looked pretty decent in the game last night. He's a lot stronger than Addai but he's not as quick. Both of them are more impressive than I thought. Each pick up the blitz really well and by Manning time.

I'm less impressed with the Colts offensive line. They seem to pass protect fairly well because Manning gets an awful lot of time but I was not impressed with their running game. They struggled to open holes all night and it's not like any team can key on the run with them. And in short yardage situations they just had no ability to drive at all. That no huddle QB sneak they tried to run was absolutely pathetic. NY's defensive line wasn't all that impressive without Jenkins and the Colts got absolutely no push against them on a critical play.

Were we watching the same game?

Donald Brown rushed 6 times for 18 total yards, and only one of those runs was for 12 yards. That's hardly a good stat line for a running back.

[rk3025]

Seattle has two 1st round picks and needs players so let Allen trade players for draft picks and they then have immediate help.

If you could get Seattle to bite on the second option, I'd take that in a heartbeat. Even better if you could a low end pick back from them for this or next year, but that might be pushing the boundaries a little too far.

The first option makes reasoned sense if the draft played out that way. That would have to be an on the day trade, but if the talent was still there, it would be worth serious consideration.

Hail.

[Skins93077]

Buffalo, seattle san fran, carolina all want and need qb's well were sitting pretty at # 4 so... Let the bidding war begin! No we trade down for peanuts!! I'm done with the vinny trades! Its about time we say oh you want our pick fine! It will cost you 2 1st a 2nd and a 3rd! Either in this draft or next years! Were in the drivers seat ifff were left to pick qb and everyone of tose teams wants a qb!

We can really win big time by not being suckers for once! I'm not saying we will reap the benefits all in this draft by trading our pick but in nxt years draft we could have the 2 1st rounders n more if we play it smart. No matter who is there I think its best if we do this. Rebudiling doesn't happen over night.