NY Times - Letters from London : My American Friends

[hkHog]

Eh, the political digs were unnecessary. And I'm pretty sure this guy thinks that any one of the 50 million people who voted for Bush are indeed country bumpkins. He also acts like Thatcher's awfulness is rooted in fact or conventional wisdom. Her legacy contradicts that.

You can cut the condescension of this little doozy with a knife.

Europe is no longer expensive, and with the election of Barack Obama, the brief cushion of political superiority has been permanently deflated.

The Obama election was a real kick in the teeth, because although we Britons still seethe with class hatred, we pride ourselves on our highly evolved attitude to the question of race that has consistently undermined the American dream.

Spare me.

I agree 100%. I think its a little strange that the writer never put one and one together and maybe thought, "you know maybe there is a correlation between how friendly and open Americans are and the seemingly crazy political views they hold." Maybe one of the reasons that Brits quietly despise each other is because of the massive mandated wealth redistribution that goes on there and their fifty year long demise from a once major power to a has been (except for under Margaret Thatcher of course). Having spent half of my childhood growing up in the USA and the other half in the UK, I have always agreed with the author's observations in the first half of the letter but he has completely failed to understand why this was the case.

EDIT - In addition, most Americans try to earn for themselves and that is why the service here is competent and friendly rather than the boorish behavior exhibited by the bartender in this article. They do not expect the government and the wealthy to provide everything for them to nearly the same extent as the average British person. I believe it is PRIMARILY attitudes like this that make Americans act differently than Brits. Once again, the author completely fails to put one and one together. Americans are nicer, more hardworking, more open, and more friendly precisely because we have NOT been electing the people who Europeans approve of for the last fifty years. The fact that this guy can't put these two facts together is quite astonishing.

When you live in a socialist society where people are living off the hard work of others and expecting to always be taken care of it removes all incentive for people like the bartender to try his best and make his patrons feel welcome and also fosters a general feeling of seething hatred between individuals in the society (the rich hate the poor because they must give them their money, the poor hate the rich because they don't think they're getting enough and they have limited prospects for real advancement, and everyone hates themselves in general). This guy did a wonderful job pointing out the SOCIAL failings of socialist societies and the benefits of more capitalistic, individualistic, go-getter societies in this letter even if he doesn't realize it himself.

[zoony]

Be quiet .... you toothless, barefoot, banjo-twanging, snake-worshiping, outhouse-using, moonshine-drinking, illiterate, inbred mountain man.

I'm not illiterate!

[hkHog]

See, where you get insulted out of that and see it as a pro Obama statement, I see it as a statement towards our character as a people. He's saying the Brits felt superior to us in that they felt their handling and acceptance of racial issues were far more evolved than ours, and the election of Obama proved that we aren't as shallow as they may have thought in that regard because of his race, not his politics.

You guys seem so predisposed to be personally insulted that you hear it in everything positive that has Obama's name attached to it. I think it's clouded your overall impression of this piece. I really don't see what he said as a political statement at all.

~Bang

I don't mean to answer for hokie4redskins but i don't think he was insulted. Rather the author completely missed the point. Furthermore, anyone who doesn't think that the USA is BY FAR the best racially integrated country on the planet (and has been for decades now, this did not start when Obama was elected) is terribly ignorant. I think hokie4redskins was merely pointing this out.

[youngestson]

I have been told by several people that im not a "typical American" (whatever that is suppose to mean)

I've heard that as well but have never been able to track down exactly what they mean. So after a while I just took it as a backhand compliment and continued on my way.

[The 12th Commandment]

I agree 100%. I think its a little strange that the writer never put one and one together and maybe thought, "you know maybe there is a correlation between how friendly and open Americans are and the seemingly crazy political views they hold." Maybe one of the reasons that Brits quietly despise each other is because of the massive mandated wealth redistribution that goes on there and their fifty year long demise from a once major power to a has been (except for under Margaret Thatcher of course). Having spent half of my childhood growing up in the USA and the other half in the UK, I have always agreed with the author's observations in the first half of the letter but he has completely failed to understand why this was the case.

EDIT - In addition, most Americans try to earn for themselves and that is why the service here is competent and friendly rather than the boorish behavior exhibited by the bartender in this article. They do not expect the government and the wealthy to provide everything for them to nearly the same extent as the average British person. I believe it is PRIMARILY attitudes like this that make Americans act differently than Brits. Once again, the author completely fails to put one and one together. Americans are nicer, more hardworking, more open, and more friendly precisely because we have NOT been electing the people who Europeans approve of for the last fifty years. The fact that this guy can't put these two facts together is quite astonishing.

When you live in a socialist society where people are living off the hard work of others and expecting to always be taken care of it removes all incentive for people like the bartender to try his best and make his patrons feel welcome and also fosters a general feeling of seething hatred between individuals in the society (the rich hate the poor because they must give them their money, the poor hate the rich because they don't think they're getting enough and they have limited prospects for real advancement, and everyone hates themselves in general). This guy did a wonderful job pointing out the SOCIAL failings of socialist societies and the benefits of more capitalistic, individualistic, go-getter societies in this letter even if he doesn't realize it himself.

I think we're a little more socialistic, and it doesn't impact our attitudes that much IMO, than you'd admit, but you made your case in a much better way. Nice post.

[Johnny Punani]

Ah, the longing to be accepted, the folly of someone with miniscule testicles.

Bingo!

[hokie4redskins]

I don't mean to answer for hokie4redskins but i don't think he was insulted. Rather the author completely missed the point. Furthermore, anyone who doesn't think that the USA is BY FAR the best racially integrated country on the planet (and has been for decades now, this did not start when Obama was elected) is terribly ignorant. I think hokie4redskins was merely pointing this out.

Your posts nailed it. I grant you permission to speak on my behalf whenever you like......unless of course you disagree.

[Johnny Punani]

Ah, the longing for temporary banishment, the folly of someone making trollishly insulting keystrokes.

I thought it was pretty funny myself...

[hkHog]

I think we're a little more socialistic, and it doesn't impact our attitudes that much IMO, than you'd admit, but you made your case in a much better way. Nice post.

Thanks for the compliment. Yes, I agree we are quite socialistic and getting moreso all the time. If we don't slow this down our society will also crumble into the same sort of problems we see in British and European society. It actually made me feel quite sad when I was earlier writing my reply I was thinking things like "Americans don't believe that the government and other citizens must provide them with their health care", etc... and then I thought, oh crap, we really are on a slippery slope, LOL.

[Corcaigh]

Americans are nicer, more hardworking, more open, and more friendly precisely because ... snip

:hysterical:

You're guilty of the same crass simplifications and generalizations of a whole nation as the author. And the author at least has the excuse he's trying to write an fluff entertainment piece, not to be taken seriously.

Last time I was in Manhattan I don't remember being embraced by the open and friendly locals so much. The author uses the example of a hostile barman in a popular London bar to make his superficial point. Anyone could make a similar comment about an experience in a crowded New York hotspot.

In general, the average American does seem to be more outgoing than their British counterpart. I'd attribute this to the uniquely American concept of kids doing 'show and tell' starting in kindergarten more than your "SOCIAL failings of socialist societies", but who knows.

[hkHog]

Your posts nailed it. I grant you permission to speak on my behalf whenever you like......unless of course you disagree.

Haha, thanks!

[mcsluggo]

THIS ARTICLE is a foreigner praising the polite and engaging character of Americans.

THIS TREAD is a example of partisan hacks seeing a banana wherever the hell they look.

[hkHog]

:hysterical:

You're guilty of the same crass simplifications and generalizations of a whole nation as the author. And the author at least has the excuse he's trying to write an fluff entertainment piece, not to be taken seriously.

Last time I was in Manhattan I don't remember being embraced by the open and friendly locals so much. The author uses the example of a hostile barman in a popular London bar to make his superficial point. Anyone could make a similar comment about an experience in a crowded New York hotspot.

In general, the average American does seem to be more outgoing than their British counterpart. I'd attribute this to the uniquely American concept of kids doing 'show and tell' starting in kindergarten more than your "SOCIAL failings of socialist societies", but who knows.

Yes but my crass simplifications and generalizations make more sense and work together as a whole far better than his. Also, I have lived about 15 years in the USA and eight in the UK and I have been observing the differences in each society for most of my life and have frequently contemplated the issues raised in this letter personally. I feel that I am quite qualified to make such observations and I think that the author did a good job of getting to the gist of the cultural differences but completely failed in giving any reason why they existed. Really, for me the bartender thing is a great example and something I have always noticed. Furthermore, I would say that the political attitudes and policies found in Manhattan are far closer to those found in Europe and the UK than the USA in general.

Finally, I went to kindergarten in Goring-on-Thames, England and we had show and tell every day! (Furthermore, in British schools - at least the ones I went to - they put great emphasis on public speaking skills, etc..., which by your reasoning should make them more outgoing) I still think that my observations make far more sense than yours or the guy who wrote this article but then again I have been pondering this issue for most of my life. I don't believe that I am absolutely correct but many years of thought have gone into them so to merely say that my ideas are simplistic generalizations based on one or two isolated events is incorrect.

[Corcaigh]

Furthermore, I would say that the political attitudes and policies found in Manhattan are far closer to those found in Europe and the UK than the USA in general.

So you might say that New Yorkers are not REAL Americans?

It looks like Al Qaeda attacked the wrong place.

[The Evil Genius]

So you might say that New Yorkers are not REAL Americans?

It looks like Al Qaeda attacked the wrong place.

NYCs population constitutes more than 2% of the US's entire population. More than all but 11 states have individually. Such a huge population to write off for some.

[Corcaigh]

NYCs population constitutes more than 2% of the US's entire population. More than all but 11 states. Such a huge population to write off for some.

Well from all this we've established that while REAL Americans have excellent social skills, they are not so good at math.

[The Evil Genius]

Well from all this we've established that while REAL Americans have excellent social skills, they are not so good at math.

I corrected my statement if you meant me. It was poorly worded to make the math seem fuzzy.

If not - atleast I clarified it further.

[Corcaigh]

I corrected my statement if you meant me.

Dude. You're in the People's Republic of California. How could you be confused with a REAL American? :doh:

[hkHog]

So you might say that New Yorkers are not REAL Americans?

It looks like Al Qaeda attacked the wrong place.

Come on, now you are just being silly. Anyway, when I see my friends from London we usually meet up in NYC and they ALWAYS comment on how friendly Americans are even when Manhattan is their only experience of the US. However, New Yorkers are clearly not known as being as friendly and open as most Americans and if my hypothesis about the difference between the US and UK is correct then it would not be a stretch to say that some of that could be attributed to the political beliefs and policies that they have.

[Bang]

It really seems as if some of you guys prefer to see our flag being burned by foreigners rather than reading something complimentary in a fluff piece. At least that way your constant anger towards the rest of the world is justified, I guess.

~Bang

[The Evil Genius]

It really seems as if some of you guys prefer to see our flag being burned by foreigners rather than reading something complimentary in a fluff piece. At least that way your constant anger towards the rest of the world is justified, I guess.

~Bang

Mystifies, huh?

[The Evil Genius]

Dude. You're in the People's Republic of California. How could you be confused with a REAL American? :doh:

Exactly! :evilg:

[Bang]

Mystifies, huh?

Sadly, not really.

~Bang

[Corcaigh]

Come on, now you are just being silly. Anyway, when I see my friends from London we usually meet up in NYC and they ALWAYS comment on how friendly Americans are even when Manhattan is their only experience of the US. However, New Yorkers are clearly not known as being as friendly and open as most Americans and if my hypothesis about the difference between the US and UK is correct then it would not be a stretch to say that some of that could be attributed to the political beliefs and policies that they have.

I'm not arguing that Americans in general are more outgoing than the muttering, "mustn't grumble", gaze-averting Brits. But if you're seriously suggesting that British inadequate social skills are somehow related to their political beliefs and policies then you are nuts . The same absence of social skills were present when the British empire ruled the world. More recently, but fifty years ago, when a very young Prince Charles returned home from a long trip he was greeted at the airport by his mother with a formal handshake. :hysterical:

Ascribing British lack of social skills to socialist politics is just a silly reach.

[alexey]

There may be more truth to the connection between niceness and a culture of entrepreneurship that initially meets the eye. To do business you have to make friends and contacts, you have to be able to sell sell sell, make small talk, etc.

Yes things like the election, and especially re-election of Bush, our ignorance of science, etc, show that we have problems. However, as we have shown, we are also capable of learning from our mistakes. And yes, elections of 2006 and 2008 are evidence of that. I am extremely curious about what will happen in 2010.

And no, Obama will not increase socialism, or decrease our unique spirit of innovation and entrepreneurship, make us more reliant on the government, or any silly crap like that. What it hopefully will do, however, is swell the ranks of independents and moderates by exposing and marginalizing extremists... (that's besides laying down the groundwork for our economic competitiveness in the global economy of the 21st century)