wildbill1952 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 We have one position with depth - TE. And now we trade it away? Still a bad idea. You keep depth because it allows a fresh player to come in against a tiring D and because people get injured. Keep them both. This team is not going to be fixed in one season. Dont trade either away just to get OL. I have been begging for OL for years for this team, but do it the right way. You don't have to make an OL of 5 first round picks. But the team simply has to stop using UDFA's, other team's castoffs and anybody who ever played OLine at Maryland to try and make an OLine. Instead, anchor the OL with a couple of stellar OL from a first or second round, but spend some later round picks in consecutive years AND THEN KEEP THEM. That way you keep the young guys coming through your system, like an apprentice program. No, they're not going to start for 2,3 or even 4 years or until an injury forces them to be pressed into service. But at least you have someone with medium talent who knows your plays. But stay away from the no talent guys who were bypassed by 32 other teams. There was a reason they weren't drafted. You get one Jacoby per lifetime. Someone mentioned the Colts O-Line. The Colts drafted OL in the 2nd round each of the last two years, and both can pass and run block. They drafted OL in the 3rd and 5th rounds in 2006, in the 4th round in 2005. And 4 of those 5 are still with the team. Compare that with the Skins, who drafted Rinehart in the 3rd in 2007. There's no comparison. Build the team. There are no quick fixes. Keep the talent you have and acquire more. Keep Cooley and Davis both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoVaSkins21 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 We have one position with depth - TE. And now we trade it away? Still a bad idea. You keep depth because it allows a fresh player to come in against a tiring D and because people get injured. Keep them both. This team is not going to be fixed in one season.Build the team. There are no quick fixes. Keep the talent you have and acquire more. Keep Cooley and Davis both. Exactly. This team has the potential of creating major match up problems for opposing defenses, but some people think that value is better than depth. What if they DO trade Cooley and get a ham sandwich in return? It's quite possible and then people around here will screaming WTF. There is no reason to trade a guy who was on IR and is absolutely lethal when on the field just because the guy behind him showed some promise. Cooley is not part of the problem on this team; he's a part of the solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icbmayday Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Rebuild the entire O line.......cut Betts ARE and Sellers and hopefully have a great draft. Either way next year won't be packed with too many wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Edds Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Not going to happen. What part of the article don't you understand? Shanahan will not keep 2 pass catching TE's.Before Cooley was injured, did you ever see Cooley and Davis in the game at the same time? I didn't. What makes you think Shanahan will keep 2 pass catching TE's. 1 of them has to block. Campbell? He's gone. Name another team that has 2 pass catching TE's? Start in the Skins division. Dallas. Whitten and Bennett. Unless we get a 1st, neither will be traded. U don't get rid of either unless we get a high first round draft pick out of it, or an offer with multiple picks we can't refuse. No need in tradinig players just for picks, the object is to build a winning team with great players and food depth. I think they both stay. We'll still need another te if we trade one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HA1LV1CT0RY Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 I think my jersey collection is going to be toast. Portis/Moss/Cooley :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorebd82 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Here's a pretty good list of the provisional UFA's and RFA's for each team. The link to the AFC list is at the bottom of the page: http://www.profootballweekly.com/2009/11/25/2010-nfc-free-agent-previewI absolutely agree with all of your sentiments regarding the line. However, based on what those in the know on this board have relayed, Shanahan is a big fan of Sam Bradford. Whether or not we believe it's the right move, I strongly expect the team to draft either Bradford or Clausen depending on who is available. Even more so than a new general manager or head coach, a new quarterback symbolizes change and a new era for the franchise. Shanahan will have his rookie quarterback to mold to fit his system. That leaves us with only one more high draft pick to address the line and four necessary spots to fill. (Though even Dockery, our one legitimate lineman, is an absolutely horrible fit for Shanahan's system) We can expect our 2nd rounder to start from day one, presumably a right tackle. There will be a lot of guards available in free agency - Stephen Neal is set to hit free agency and according to Pro Football Focus, he's been the 2nd best guard in all of football this year. At 33, he would undoubtedly be just a stop-gap, but he could man the position for a couple years as we add talent to our line through the next drafts. I fully expect us to be highly aggressive in targeting offensive linemen in free agency and this will be Neal's last opportunity for a pay day. He's just one example. And as teams use this offseason to purge themselves of bad contracts, I imagine more linemen will be unceremoniously released (like Dockery last year). Obviously, the biggest issue is at left tackle. Because we are in a state of long-term rebuilding, it will take a few years to gather the talent to build a cohesive and effective unit. There will probably be some stop-gap veterans available in free agency: Chad Clifton is an above-average pass protector in Green Bay, and Barry Sims is the 31st highest-rated tackle in all of football (13th highest left tackle) - this again according to Pro Football Focus. Because of the nature of our particular system, one that features smaller, more athletic linemen that are adept at moving laterally, we should be able to find some talent in the later rounds. If you look at all the successful lines in the league, they almost all have players that were found at the bottom of the draft or were undrafted free agents. We don't necessarily need to have the most talented linemen across the board but just those that precisely fit our offense. If you look at the Colts, for example, they've built their line to be principally pass-protectors; they are horrible at run blocking, which is why they have to consistently spend 1st round draft picks at running back to make up for that loss of running-game production. However, they built that line to suit perfectly the pass-heavy system, not necessarily requiring high-draft picks or free agents to do so. We also have to accept that next year will be another tough transition year. It's a shame that this team was built so poorly - our defense has hit its prime this year and we'll see rapid regression from Haynesworth, Fletcher, Carter, Rogers, Smoot, etc. by the time our offense is up to par with a rebuilt line, new quarterback and new running backs. Presumably, once we get our franchise quarterback, the draft next year will focus predominately on the line again, in which we aim for our franchise left tackle. Bill Parcells was able to scrap together a new line in one offseason with 4 new starters, though undoubtedly helped by the drafting of Jake Long. They had one big free agent signing at guard in Justin Smiley and one high draft pick in Long. But they also started Ikechuku Ndukwe at guard, who you may remember as a member of the Redskins back in 05/06. (He's currently on his 5th team in his short career). The point being is this: though we drastically need a ton of help on the line, we ultimately have to be patient as we suffer through the pains of a rebuilding process. We'll need to find linemen who fit our system and we should be able to find production in at least one position from a player who none of us would have counted on. We will undoubtedly be highly aggressive in free agency, probably overpaying for veteran talent, and it will be the primary focus in our draft after selecting our next franchise quarterback. Entering the 2011 season, we will have better starters at every spot on the line, prime for Bradford/Clausen's NFL debut. Absolutely. I don't expect a dominant offensive line next year, but one that is at least serviceable. Everyone wants to draft 10 new linemen, but we're in serious trouble if we start more than two rookies next year. I'm hoping that between the holdovers on our line and free agency, that we can at least have 3/5 of our line in place. Chad Clifton would be my top priority in free agency. We have to accept that we may have to pay stopgap guys that can hold it down for a year or two while the young pups learn and mature. Dockery will stick around, but you pointed out that he's a poor fit for the ZBS so I don't think he will be here really long. Hopefully he can surprise us. My big hope is that Rinehart benefits from the transition. He has good athleticism which is evident since he was originally a OT prospect. He seemed to struggle with the overpowering philosophy that Buges pratices, but I was impressed that despite brute strength not being his forte, he played well on the field. While I'm conflicted about trading Cooley, I see the pros and cons of both sides. Now Campbell on the other hand is someone that we have to get value for. I was hoping for a second, but now I'm thinking maybe we can get like a 3rd and 5th. If he can get us a 3rd, that will go a long way towards transitioning our line. This is a pretty poor tackle class, but hopefully some juniors keep coming out. I'm also hoping some of the junior interior linemen declare. If we acquire picks for Campbell, we should be able to grab a starting tackle and interior OL in the second and third. Maybe guys like Bulaga or Bruce Campbell in the second. Guys like Calloway at OT or Mike Iupati in the third. O'Dowd or Wisniewski at OC if they declare. I don't think its unreasonable to think that we can have a serviceable line with Rinehart, Dockery and Clifton in the fold if we can add two rookies in the 2nd and 3rd. Throw in other stopgap guys from ZBS teams like a Chester Pitts, Ben Hamilton, or Barry Sims or a good veteran like Stephen Neal and we can get through 2010. Plus I would expect us to draft a couple of mid-late round prospects for the ZBS like Mitch Petrus, Jason Fox, or Sergio Render. All of these are potential players that can rebuild that unit without having to spend a top 5 pick. Okung is a good tackle, but he is no Ogden, Pace, or Walter Jones. Hoping he's the next Samuels is his absolute ceiling which means he's not likely to reach it. Let's play to the strength of these draft and free agent classes. Get our franchise QB, build a decent line and continue to strengthen it in the 2011 offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins199021 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Do you find it as incredible as I find it that there are people who -still- think we can't address both positions in one offseason? 1-Both QB and line need upgrading. If the right QB is out there you don't pass him up. Take him early and piece together an OL via mid rounds and free agency. Swap out vets with rookie talent down the line as able. 2-If the QB isn't there this draft then by all means spend the picks on new linemen and look for a "bridge" player at the QB spot, either someone new or a QB already on the roster. Do you see how the second method sets us back a year? QB is unquestionably the most difficult position to play with the steepest learning curve. We need to install ours from year one day one, even if its only to carry a clipboard at first. We need to begin this process asap so that ideally he is ready to contend when the rest of the team is. Mid round picks + free agent vets + a strong OL coach= a line that can protect our new franchise QB and can be upgraded further in the next offseason or two. That's how you address both areas. We can address both in one offseason, but we would have to take the route where we dont get all superstar names. In another thred I proposed that we trade our 2010 1st to KC for 2 of their 2nds and a 4th. Trade our 2011 1st to the Patriots for 2 of their 2nd round picks. Trade Cooley to a team for a 2nd and a 3rd round pick. Trade the rest of the vets like the carters and such for 2011 2nd/3rd/4th round picks. Think about that, it would net us 5 2nd round picks + ours would give us 6 2nd round picks. We could draft a QB McCoy/Pike/Snead/Mallett/Possibly Bradford if he falls. Draft an RB Best/Dwyer/Matthews one will fall, then draft 3 o linemen, and have a pick for a DT/CB/LB Yes we would lose Cooley, 2011 1st, and 2010 1st, but it would put us in the right direction so much faster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a0tmike21 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 We don't have to trade cooley or davis; two good tight ends can make the offense way better. It would be hard to cover to tight ends on passing routes and both can help the line with blocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDColt Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 What are a few differences between Zorns WCO and Shanny's WCO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff in D.C. Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 I think my jersey collection is going to be toast. Portis/Moss/Cooley :doh: Join the club with those three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff in D.C. Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Originally Posted by maskedsuperstar Not going to happen. What part of the article don't you understand? Shanahan will not keep 2 pass catching TE's. Before Cooley was injured, did you ever see Cooley and Davis in the game at the same time? I didn't. What makes you think Shanahan will keep 2 pass catching TE's. 1 of them has to block. Campbell? He's gone. Name another team that has 2 pass catching TE's? Start in the Skins division. Dallas. Whitten and Bennett. Unless we get a 1st, neither will be traded. U don't get rid of either unless we get a high first round draft pick out of it, or an offer with multiple picks we can't refuse. No need in tradinig players just for picks, the object is to build a winning team with great players and food depth. I think they both stay. We'll still need another te if we trade one of them. Bennett has 15 catches. I hardly consider him getting one bone thrown his way every game the definition of a "pass catching" TE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Bennett has 15 catches. I hardly consider him getting one bone thrown his way every game the definition of a "pass catching" TE. And yet he's probably as good, or nearly as good, as Davis. Which raises the point that all these "We'll be great with two pass catching TEs" advocates should note- Teams with 2 good TEs see either one or both of them end up under-utilized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rk3025 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Yoder can block Who do you think is the better blocker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskins55 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 All this talk about a first round draft pick for a TE is hilarious... Tony Gonzalez went to the Falcons for a 2nd rounder and he's a HOF TE who in his later years is still more versitile than Cooley. So expect at least a 2nd rounder for Cooley and nothing more for Davis. Personally I think we should keep Cooley and trade Davis. Cooley is proven and Davis has benefited from Campbell's dependence on throwing to the TE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins199021 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 What are a few differences between Zorns WCO and Shanny's WCO? shanny's is more open and down field passing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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