Reasons to Cut Pollution and turn to Green Resources regardless of Global Warming

[AsburySkinsFan]

Great, let's minimize the impact. Let's spread it around in a diverese manner.

We don't need to have NO impact. We need to lessen our impact in one specific manner.

You're right PeterMP but DCsportsfan isn't interested in that, he's more interested in presenting a strawman argument that calls for zero impact and when that can't be done he says, screw it keep the coal fires burning.

[Larry]

I've been all about the Solar/Wind for every house to end the "Grid"

I don't think powering a house with wind can ever be done. And I don't think solar is remotely close to possible. (Although I don't know of a rule that says it never will be.)

Yeah, I've seen people post articles about people who claim to be running their house off of, I think it was, solar. But . . .

In order to achieve this, the homeowner had to reduce his electricity usage to the point that he can run his entire house from a single car battery for a week. Things like every room in the house is "lit" by 4-5 LEDs. The TV is allowed to be switched on 4 hours a week. "Lights out" is at 9:00 PM.

And oh, BTW, his heat, hot water, and the stove are run from the propane that's trucked out to his house. So that energy doesn't count.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I don't think powering a house with wind can ever be done.

Well it would be an easy thing to give up on if it weren't already possible.

http://www.wepower.us

[Koolblue13]

Well it would be an easy thing to give up on if it weren't already possible.

http://www.wepower.us

No prices on that site.

[GhostofSparta]

No prices on that site.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed that. I thought I just overlooked them somehow.

[Koolblue13]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed that. I thought I just overlooked them somehow.

It's all rhetoric on there. Want to see most of America these things?

Average house electricity bill, average cost of enough turbines to run average single home. It pays for itself in how long?

Don't tell me how great they look. I can see them. Don't tell me how they are green, that's why I'm looking at them. Typical.

[Hubbs]

I don't think powering a house with wind can ever be done. And I don't think solar is remotely close to possible. (Although I don't know of a rule that says it never will be.)

I thought the projections on advances in solar technology were more optimistic than that. Does the math behind the energy transfer just fail to add up?

[AsburySkinsFan]

No prices on that site.

Hey they invented this cool thing where you can type in something and it looks over the entire internet to find that thing you're looking for its called Google.

Vertical Axis Wind Turbine or VAWT.

[Hubbs]

Hey they invented this cool thing where you can type in something and it looks over the entire internet to find that thing you're looking for its called Google.

Vertical Axis Wind Turbine or VAWT.

Come on, ASF, you could have been way more sarcastic than that if you had just used this link:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=vertical+axis+wind+turbine

[GhostofSparta]

Hey they invented this cool thing where you can type in something and it looks over the entire internet to find that thing you're looking for its called Google.

Vertical Axis Wind Turbine or VAWT.

To me it just seemed like a bad idea buisness-wise to not include prices. Another minor way that a potentially good "green" energy company could shoot itself in the foot with a lot of potentinal customers.

I can't be the only one that looks at items like that, sees no prices listed and thinks "Well that obviously means I can't afford it." Yes Google is always an option, it's just not a smart method for a buisness to use.

[AsburySkinsFan]

It's all rhetoric on there. Want to see most of America these things?

They said the same thing about powerlines being stretched across the landscape. "Who wants to see those things everywhere?"

As for the price look it up, do the math. Who cares how long it takes to pay for itself as long as it pays for itself? My brother said to me when I bought my scooter, "Dude that will take forever to pay for itself." My response, "Yeah, but it pays for itself."

[Larry]

Well it would be an easy thing to give up on if it weren't already possible.

http://www.wepower.us

Is there a link there to somebody who's powering his house entirely with wind?

And no, I don't mean "somebody who makes enough money off of selling his energy (during periods when he has a surplus) back to the utility company at more than 6 times the market price, to pay for the energy that he takes off of the grid when he doesn't generate enough".

[SloppyOneXXVI]

Well it would be an easy thing to give up on if it weren't already possible.

http://www.wepower.us

The ONLY way to power a house off of wind alone is if you live in a highly rural area with large amounts of wind. My friends and I tried to create a startup based off powering individual homes in the Baltimore area with wind energy. The urbanized areas do not have enough wind to power houses on their own. The wind turbines aren't efficient enough. If the technology gets better, MAYBE that would work, but we're not there yet.

Not to mention the cost is absurdly high, and most cities won't allow wind turbines because of city ordinances. The turbines have to be really high (like 30-35 ft high) to be effective, and most residential areas have height limits for structures. http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2009-08-05/news/0908040083_1_turbine-vitow-city-officials

Don't think it's too expensive? Check out this Maryland Government site: http://energy.maryland.gov/facts/renewable/wind/wind_calculator/OnlineWindCalc.asp

The site calculates how long it would take for someone to "make their money back" using a wind turbine. IF I bought the most expensive turbine, I would make my money back in 49 years. Add inflation in there, and I'm losing lots of money.

The technology needs to be mastered before home wind energy is viable.

[AsburySkinsFan]

To me it just seemed like a bad idea buisness-wise to not include prices. Another minor way that a potentially good "green" energy company could shoot itself in the foot with a lot of potentinal customers.

I can't be the only one that looks at items like that, sees no prices listed and thinks "Well that obviously means I can't afford it." Yes Google is always an option, it's just not a smart method for a buisness to use.

I'm not promoting them, I'm just putting them out there as one of the many places that are making these things now.

http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/vertical_axis_wind_turbines.htm

[Koolblue13]

Hey they invented this cool thing where you can type in something and it looks over the entire internet to find that thing you're looking for its called Google.

Vertical Axis Wind Turbine or VAWT.

You posted a link, that didn't provide all the info to back what you were saying. Why would I google it? And relax, I was just making a comment about the site.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Is there a link there to somebody who's powering his house entirely with wind?

And no, I don't mean "somebody who makes enough money off of selling his energy (during periods when he has a surplus) back to the utility company at more than 6 times the market price, to pay for the energy that he takes off of the grid when he doesn't generate enough".

This guy is wind/solar and is off the grid.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2006-04-12-off-the-grid_x.htm

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Just one more thought... the current energy companies get as much from the government as any other industry. People keep, legitimately, arguing that we don't want to screw ourselves to invest in new energy resources. This is presuming that there is currently a level playing field.

There clearly is not. If you just want a level playing field to allow capitalism to work, then you want the government to invest in much in green energy as it does in oil, coal, etc.

[Koolblue13]

They said the same thing about powerlines being stretched across the landscape. "Who wants to see those things everywhere?"

I meant to say "sell" not "see". For the record, I'm a big fan of this type of tech.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Don't think it's too expensive? Check out this Maryland Government site: http://energy.maryland.gov/facts/renewable/wind/wind_calculator/OnlineWindCalc.asp

That's funny because I did a basic calculation on that site for Hagerstown, MD and it said that it would be a monthly amount of $57, who wouldn't want a $57 electric bill each month? And there was one African WP 3.6 (2.5kW) that pays itself off in 20 years, that's 10 years before most houses are paid off.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I meant to say "sell" not "see". For the record, I'm a big fan of this type of tech.

LOL, that does make a big difference in how your post reads.

[Burgundy Burner]

I am all for shifting to green energy and am a very "pro enviornment" person

But as ken said, don't tax people for breathing and cows for farting

Even though my response was a direct family type of rebuttal to ASF, I feel the same way. There is no need for ridiculous taxes and crazy policies. Too, there is no need to make huge sacrifices in personal safety and costly mistakes.

I'm all for a tectonic shift in energy policies if it is viable and reasonable. It would be a dream come true if we could end the reliance on oil from unfriendly regimes and truly have an even cleaner environment. In many ways, we share the same ideas, but not some of the current policies that are trying to achieve these goals.

[Larry]

Unfortunately, here's the way the "market" is for residential wind power.

1) The purchase price for the equipment is irrelevent, because there's a tax credit on them, therefore, whatever it costs, the federal government will pay for it.

2) Once it's installed, you still connect your house to the power grid. When you need more power than your turbine produces, then you suck power from the grid.

When your turbine produces a surplus, then the power company is required by law to purchase however much power you generate, at retail, delivered, prices (which are several times higher that what it costs the utility to generate that power), regardless of whether the power company wants that power, right then, or not.

This is equivalent to me getting a law passed that says that when my home propane generator produces a surplus of propane, the propane company is required to send a truck to my house to pick it up, and pay me for what it would have cost me to ship it to them. They have to ship my product, and pay me for shipping.

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Now, all of that said, I have no problem at all with the government subsidizing the startup of an industry that's in the Nation's interest to stimulate. For example, I'd have no problem at all with the government subsidizing the Chevy Volt for a while.

But that said, my opinion (based, I'll freely admit, on nothing more than my never-wrong gut feeling) is that wind power will never be a viable primary source of energy. Mainly because I think of wind power kind of like "hydroelectric power, except it's impossible to build a dam, therefore it's impossible to force the wind to go through your turbine. The best you can do is the equivalent of putting a hydroelectric turbine in a river and harvesting power from whatever water doesn't chose to just go around your silly turbine.".

[SloppyOneXXVI]

Here's another HUGE issue with wind power. Even if you buy a 30 kw turbine, it doesn't produce that much power most of the time. The turbine typically produce 25-40% of maximum power. Imagine putting these in a city. The output would be even smaller with large buildings blocking the wind.

Here's some reading from the American Wind Energy Association:

http://www.awea.org/faq/wwt_basics.html

What is "capacity factor"?

Capacity factor is one element in measuring the productivity of a wind turbine or any other power production facility. It compares the plant's actual production over a given period of time with the amount of power the plant would have produced if it had run at full capacity for the same amount of time.

A conventional utility power plant uses fuel, so it will normally run much of the time unless it is idled by equipment problems or for maintenance. A capacity factor of 40% to 80% is typical for conventional plants.

A wind plant is "fueled" by the wind, which blows steadily at times and not at all at other times. Although modern utility-scale wind turbines typically operate 65% to 90% of the time, they often run at less than full capacity. Therefore, a capacity factor of 25% to 40% is common, although they may achieve higher capacity factors during windy weeks or months.

It is important to note that while capacity factor is almost entirely a matter of reliability for a fueled power plant, it is not for a wind plant—for a wind plant, it is a matter of economical turbine design. With a very large rotor and a very small generator, a wind turbine would run at full capacity whenever the wind blew and would have a 60-80% capacity factor—but it would produce very little electricity. The most electricity per dollar of investment is gained by using a larger generator and accepting the fact that the capacity factor will be lower as a result. Wind turbines are fundamentally different from fueled power plants in this respect.

If a wind turbine's capacity factor is 33%, doesn't that mean it is only running one-third of the time?

No. A wind turbine at a typical location in the Midwestern U.S. should run about 65-90% of the time. However, much of the time it will be generating at less than full capacity (see previous answer), making its capacity factor lower.

[AsburySkinsFan]

But that said, my opinion (based, I'll freely admit, on nothing more than my never-wrong gut feeling) is that wind power will never be a viable primary source of energy.

Which is why most people who make the shift go wind/solar.

[Baculus]

I hear a lot of debate about Global Warming, and frankly it seems to me that some think that if global warming is not real then its an excuse to continue relying on limited and dirty resources such as coal and on resources that draw us into armed conflict such as oil. So this thread is for anyone to post their reasons why we should "go green" whether or not global warming is real or even caused by man.

Feel free to post your own.

queue the homers in 3, 2, 1.....

Exactly.

In some ways, global warming has become a red herring for anti-environmental legislation organizations and it has become a source of attack for the Wise Use movement.

Even before the furor over the global warming debate erupted, we still had battles of emissions control and toxic dumping. Many water sources in the U.S. are still considered to be undrinkable, and smog is still an issue in urban areas.

Do we really think this stuff is going to go away?