WPC: The blame game

[HailGreen28]

The collective media demonstrate stupidity daily. "Calling them on it" individually would take a full-time staff equipped with BS detectors.

I hold these truths to be self-evident:

Dan Snyder can't be trusted.

Vinny Cerrato can't be trusted

The media can't be trusted.

Ah.... the "Tu quoque" fallacy rears it's ugly head again.

In this situation, the media isn't our problem. Our problem is the two lying scumbags that hold the top positions in our Front Office.

[Skinsinparadise]

Vinny didn't mention that he asked Jim to win with a different QB and scheme than the playoff team or that the O-line has degraded still further from the one from the playoff caliber team that helped Zorn get off to a 6-2 start in 2008.

I know. The whole thing strikes me tit for tat -- Vinny wants the blame on Zorn for obvious reasons. I've defended Vinny some on the board for example on his drafting, but he's lost me with the way he's handled this affair. As you probably remember from prior debates, I am not a big Zorn guy, but I think its silly to put it all on him and I think he's handled everything with a lot more class than Vinny.

[MustangSteve]

It seems Cerrato would have us believe that the whirlwind of news and speculation surrounding the team and the head coach is somehow a construct of the press. He speaks as if the team was rolling along just fine before the media started reporting negative things and making stuff up. As if the play on the field has not been horrible, and the front office without a track record of alienating head coaches to the extent they leave the team.

Don't you watch any games JimmiJo? This offense was starting to roll until those reporters started calling us bad names, sticking their tongue's out and hurting our feelings. If it wasn't for them we would have been scoring in the 60's, and Vinny knows it, just ask him.

They had no business saying anything mean about us, we have already won 2 games this early in the season, and even coach Zorn said we are making progress. That's the same amount of wins that we had the entire 2nd half of last season. So why is everyone so upset and thinking were not getting it done? There's still 10 games left, and it's even possible that we tie or break our 12 point average a game, if they will leave us alone that is.

We have the nicest coach in the world, bless his heart. Who else would give up his play calling to a man who hasn't been in the league for 5 years? That's beyond a coach or best friend, that's almost like a brother. Vinny promised us we got this thing together people, therefor if he say's it, then we all know he means it. To think we wanted to get rid of him, we would have lost a great one :doh:

[monkeezgob]

Yeah, I mean Steve Largent, Zorn's best friend...what an idiot! Right? Right? Sorry Vinny if it sounds like BS and it smells like BS...guess what? It's BS. Vinny's attempt to deal with recent events only proved how incompetent both he, the owner and the organization are.

Let's suppose the new play calling 'consultant' turns the season round, where on earth does that leave Zorn? He was brought in as the OC and then HC, but he's been emasculated by recent events. A winning season or losing season, makes little difference as far as he's concerened, he clearly now has no future at the Redskins. We turn it round...well that was all down to Bingo! Great appointment Vinny! Thnaks Jim, but we can do without you. We stumble to a losing season, well, no-one could expect Bingo to do anything with this team, sorry Jim that's your fault, you're done.

Come on Vinny! At least have the balls to be honest with Zorn, the media and the fans, you've always lacked class, but even I'm suprised by the staggering lack of class and credibility displayed in your last broadcast.

[DieselPwr44]

or that the O-line has degraded still further from the one from the playoff caliber team that helped Zorn get off to a 6-2 start in 2008.

I guess going BPA and drafting two WR and a TE when they've known for sometime that the OL was in decline is not Vinny's fault either??

Be careful in defending Vincent Cerrato, Oldfan. You may be the next one he throws under the bus at a press conference.

[MustangSteve]

But, Zorn whining through Largent is really something! This guy interviewed for a OC job, and when no one wanted to be HC, he took the job with tons of restrictions (same coaching staff, for example.)

My Lawd, this is actually embarrassing when you think about it

I'm sure glad Vinny has this thing straightened out

I guess going BPA and drafting two WR and a TE when they've known for sometime that the OL was in decline is not Vinny's fault either??

Be careful in defending Vincent Cerrato, Oldfan. You may be the next one he throws under the bus at a press conference.

I'm scared to get old now :hysterical:

[Skinsinparadise]

when a team goes to 2-4 against one of the softest schedules ever assembled then the natural thing to do for the media is to say that 'Jim Zorn is a dead man walking. He is through in Washington."

I think that's a part of what got the media going but the frenzy started when Cerrato started making the moves first by bringing in an offensive consultant, playing down the move and then a short time later having him replace Zorn as play caller -- with Zorn saying Cerrato "strongly" suggested he do so.

Vinny is shocked that the media which loves to overreact on a good day wouldn't make a big story out of this?

All of that becuase of what they have seen in the past with other coaches and that Dan Snyder hasn't learned anything even though he hasn't even uttered one word otherwise.

Here is an example of IMO the media overplaying a point. Danny Snyder isn't George Steinbrenner, he doesn't fire coaches every year. He fired Norv who he inherited and Marty. Gibbs and Spurrier quit.

So what is Dan Snyder and Vinny Cerrato suppose to do in that situation?

If they aren't going to tell the truth then they should accept the media not buying their spin out of hand. IMO they blew it by underplaying the Smith hire, flat out saying he's not taking anybody's job and two weeks later doing the exact opposite.

[MustangSteve]

If they aren't going to tell the truth then they should accept the media not buying their spin out of hand. IMO they blew it by underplaying the Smith hire, flat out saying he's not taking anybody's job and two weeks later doing the exact opposite.

You must have misunderstood them lol

[Oldfan]

I guess going BPA and drafting two WR and a TE when they've known for sometime that the OL was in decline is not Vinny's fault either??

Be careful in defending Vincent Cerrato, Oldfan. You may be the next one he throws under the bus at a press conference.

Your reading comprehension problem surfaces again. I haven't defended Vinny anywhere in this thread, but since you have now attacked him unfairly, I will.

Vinny took charge in 2008. If you have evidence that the scouts we hired had an offensive linemen graded nearly as high as the players selected in the past two drafts, then you have a valid complaint. But, we know you don't and you're just passing gas.

Here's a question you will likely duck: would you have taken Oher over Orakpo?

[Brixtion_skin]

The problem when people say these things is that our defense is capable of playing very well.

Granted, the Eagles O is also capable of playing at a high level, and they're coming off an embarrassing loss.

I think where the real problems are going to be for the Redskins is on O v. D. They have Jim Johnson, a DC respected and particularly renowned for creative blitzes, combined with a couple of playmakers in the defensive backfield. That may turn out to be a lethal combination for our team.

.

I agree with you about the our O against their D. However did not Jim Johnson die in July?

[DieselPwr44]

Here's a question you will likely duck: would you have taken Oher over Orakpo?

Yes I would have.

Our RT spot has been unsettled for years. Oher would've helped fix that instead of depending on some never was project in Tackle for Heyer.

And if Oher is gone?? I try my dead level best to trade down to acquire enough picks to make some OL selections of value.

This whole BPA theory is nice if you're a team that has no glaring weaknesses across the board but we're not THAT team.

[SkinsNumberOne]

I agree with you about the our O against their D. However did not Jim Johnson die in July?

I was corrected later in the thread. Totally whiffed on that fact (I blame getting married in July for not letting that settle into my memory correctly, and then being fully absorbed in the woes of our own team).

Anyway, I'll edit the post so it just says defense instead of having the incorrect info.

Thanks for the correction to all who noted it. Embarrassing oversight on my part.

[ntotoro]

Sorry JJ, Dan and Vinny's stupidity does not negate the media's stupidity.

Which, like the team is doing, completely attempts to deflect the real blame here. The media is not the reason this is such a bad team, "stupid" or otherwise.

[SkinsNumberOne]

This whole BPA theory is nice if you're a team that has no glaring weaknesses across the board but we're not THAT team.

*Exactly.

You can't just do BPA when you broke down just LAST year, widely agreed upon to be because the OLine. Repeatedly, people call out our OLine to be the oldest or one of the oldest over the last few years.

And repeatedly, the FO has obstinately refused to address this issue. To me, the culmination of this was last year's 2nd round.

But this is only one aspect of the problem. BPA - or any strategy - is always going to be weakened if you have problems evaluating talent and need (because like it or not, need factored into their supposed BPA strategy - Vinny repeatedly says we needed tall receivers last year). Our ability to evaluate is still a bit raw and open for debate - most notable on this list are Rinehart, Thomas, Davis, and Kelly - and the early returns are less than stellar.

[Oldfan]

Ah.... the "Tu quoque" fallacy rears it's ugly head again.

In this situation, the media isn't our problem. Our problem is the two lying scumbags that hold the top positions in our Front Office.

There is no fallacy if you stick to the point which was the attempt to question the truth of Vinny's statement: “There’s been a lot of false rumors, media speculation, unnamed sources out there all the time,” he said.

Vinny is capable of lying, but this statement is true.

[Oldfan]

Yes I would have.

Our RT spot has been unsettled for years. Oher would've helped fix that instead of depending on some never was project in Tackle for Heyer.

And if Oher is gone?? I try my dead level best to trade down to acquire enough picks to make some OL selections of value.

This whole BPA theory is nice if you're a team that has no glaring weaknesses across the board but we're not THAT team.

There are no teams without glaring weaknesses. Belichick won his first Super Bowl with 16 cheap free agents on the roster. That's today's NFL -- the result of parity.

Drafting for need is a win-now approach that lowers the batting average since need has nothing whatsoever to do with the chances of the draftee making an NFL roster.

Orakpo was the right pick long-term.

[Oldfan]

Which, like the team is doing, completely attempts to deflect the real blame here. The media is not the reason this is such a bad team, "stupid" or otherwise.

There is no attempt to deflect anything. You missed the point completely. Read the OP.

[Skinsinparadise]

*Exactly.

You can't just do BPA when you broke down just LAST year, widely agreed upon to be because the OLine. Repeatedly, people call out our OLine to be the oldest or one of the oldest over the last few years.

As to the point they should have addressed this issues years ago, I agree. But am sure as you know its not as if all players in the draft are equal -- its not as if it works this way where here's our 54th pick, and we have O lineman, D lineman, linebackers, etc all rated about the same or close enough so it comes down to thinking about what position do we need the most help in.

You can see some evidence by just looking at what they've done in recent drafts -- lets take a few years ago where everyone was screaming to pick a D lineman. We had the chance to take Jammal Anderson, and Adam Carriker. And some people on the board were screaming for them to do just that. OK in theory those players would help solve our pass rush issues, right?

Well, wrong, yes they are D lineman but both so far are busts. They took Landry instead. When they found a D lineman they liked, Orkapo, they grabbed him.

To me, the culmination of this was last year's 2nd round.

What OT tackle did they pass on in the 2nd round last year that you liked? Keep in mind there wasn't a single OT taken in the 2nd round, zero, by anybody.

Our ability to evaluate is still a bit raw and open for debate - most notable on this list are Rinehart, Thomas, Davis, and Kelly - and the early returns are less than stellar.

I think it was Parcells who once said if you hit on 50% of your picks you are doing well -- don't know of a team with a 100% rate of return. Personally I think Vinny is decent, not great, but decent in this department. In the last 2 drafts you got:

Orkapo -- likely star

Jarmon -- some say looks like a star

K. Moore -- decent depth

C. Horton

M. Mitchell

C. Brennan

M. Mitchell -- looked great in preseason

J Tyron -- now the nickle CB

Considering we didn't have a full slate of draft picks, its not bad IMO. I think it was Kiper who said the biggest factor in striking gold with the draft is having lots of picks, your success rate is going to be higher the more chances you have.

IMO the failure of this team and that includes the O line issue is all of the draft pick trades -- if they had those picks they could have made more upgrades including the O line. But am not going to hammer Vinny for not reaching for a O lineman in the 2nd round when no other team thought there was one worthy in that round. Oher versus Orkapo is a more interesting debate.

[HailGreen28]

There is no fallacy if you stick to the point which was the attempt to question the truth of Vinny's statement: “There’s been a lot of false rumors, media speculation, unnamed sources out there all the time,” he said.

Vinny is capable of lying, but this statement is true.

But why IS there such rumor and speculation?

There's a very simple answer. The poisonous atmosphere created by....whom?

The media DOESN'T figure into why this front office and coaching situation has become a trainwreck.

[bubba9497]

“There’s been a lot of false rumors, media speculation, unnamed sources out there all the time,” he said.

Is that so.

while the Skins FO has created much of the questions, it is naive to believe the media as a whole haven't attacked like sharks with blood in the water.

Several "reporters" have speculated everything from Zorn's firing, to Cerrato's firing, to Snyder's involvement, to Gibbs return, Samuels retiring today...etc passed on as if it were facts, when none where true.

The fans are willing to believe anything, especially the worse about the Redskins, and many in the media are happy to supply it, to fan the fire... bashing the Redskins = web hits.

The Skins create enough problems of the own without adding to it.

I posted in another thread about 5 different "experts" opinion on the Redskins offensive problems, and they all where different, one contradicting another, but each expert stated it like they were 100% correct.

[bubba9497]

the post I alluded too, above

Gary Horton, Scouts Inc. ESPN

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/news/story?id=4588163

It's not all about play-calling, Redskins: This may not be a key to this game, but there are more problems in this organization than questionable play-calling. They have an aging offensive line and running back, they have a quarterback who is not a good fit for the West Coast offense, and they lack overall playmakers. When your best weapon is your tight end, something is wrong.

Jaws

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=jaworski_ron&id=4588518

There is nothing wrong with the play calling in Washington. The problem is execution.

Quarterback Jason Campbell is not playing well. He is missing open receivers. Campbell right now is not able to clearly see what is happening when he looks over the line of scrimmage. It's a deadly situation for an offense when the QB is not able to read and react effectively. I've seen a lot of dropped balls, too.

Another problem is the regression of running back Clinton Portis. The offensive line is making good blocks and getting Portis to the second level of the defense. The old Portis would make an initial 3-yard gain into an explosive 20- or 30-yard play. He's not doing that anymore, so Washington's running game does not scare anyone, making it harder on Campbell and the passing game.

Rich Gannon

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2009/10/rich_gannon_tells_snyder_skins.html

"When I went out and watched practice on Friday, I have to tell you, I wasn't impressed. You know, when I watched the play selection, I watched their substitution pattern and I watched their scheme, right now, to me, it's very vanilla, it's very scaled-back. Certainly they had some issues along the offensive line, but I just think that Jim Zorn--while he is a very nice guy, he's a good man, it's important to him--I just think he's in over his head. I think certainly when you consider that responsibility--I'm talking about from a head-coaching perspective--it's unique.

Clark Judge

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/12400146

How they got here: Hiring Jim Zorn looks like a mistake now, only no one will admit it. After winning six of his first eight last year, he's 4-10 and has Redskins' fans on the warpath. He lost his play-calling responsibilities this week, and that may be the beginning of the end. One of the reasons he was supposed to survive the season was because he called the plays. Now he doesn't. Say goodnight.

Why there's hope: There is too much talent here for the team to stay down long.

Mike Lombardi

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8138b12f&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Removing Zorn of his play-calling duties is much like Lucy looking for the ring in the living room. It is not going to solve any problems because the problem is not the plays being called; it is the players. Now, I am not endorsing Zorn as the head coach; he has more than his share of problems. In large part, he was hired before he was ready to be a head coach, but Washington's main problems don't rest at Zorn's feet.

Owner Daniel Snyder and GM Vinny Cerrato are not realistic about the talent on their team. The most critical aspect of procuring players is having the ability to evaluate your own talent first. How can you successfully evaluate other teams' players if you can't do it well with your own?

Going into the season, the Redskins had an aging offensive line that was destined to become ravaged with injuries, a running back that may have seen his better days, no real offensive skill players that could scare a defense, and a quarterback that was never meant for the West Coast offense.

The results of that are showing up on Sundays. Despite playing six straight winless teams to start the season, their margin of victory in their two wins has been a combined five points and their margin of loss has been 22. In reality, the Skins are a bad team with high expectations.

so who is right?

[whatmeworry]

Here's a question you will likely duck: would you have taken Oher over Orakpo?

Absolutely not but Vinny acted like a schoolgirl going to her first prom. By jumping the gun, not waiting for legitimate offers (which may or may not have gotten) from other teams he showed a complete lack of understanding how the draft works. Also, we had top-rated OL available to us in the later rounds and in his wisdom he picks a DB from Maryland coming off a knee injury. This despite it being obvious for THE LAST THREE YEARS we were in desperate need of line talent.

[bubba9497]

But why IS there such rumor and speculation?

because you have a high profile team, at 2-4, a polarizing owner, a fan base wanting blood, and a media writers willing to do anything to give them just that (and get those web hits)

Sports journalism is the only journalistic branch that is NEVER held to accountability. They always have the last word, can easily spin excuses for being wrong, and have fans/readers who rather believe their guesses than read the truth.

a journalist is supposed to seek the truth, not just speculate what the truth is.

Danny doesn't talk to the media, Vinny is disliked by fans... so the media can write almost anything without fear of retribution. Fans expect the worst, so why not provide it.

Not all reporters are this way, but many are. Why bother getting all the facts, when you can take the easy way out. You even have the readers agreeing because the rumor confirms the perception the readers have of what's going on at Redskin Park

[DieselPwr44]

Drafting for need is a win-now approach that lowers the batting average since need has nothing whatsoever to do with the chances of the draftee making an NFL roster.

Which is why when a team like Baltimore has Oline issues, they go out and draft the talent to take care of it instead of procrastinating about it behind the BPA excuse.

Or when Minny has WR issues, they go right out and draft a player like Harvin to immediately address the issue.

Compared to Cerrato who,last offseason, said that the offensive line was identified as the main culprit in last season's fade and addresses it by looking in the bargin bin for UDFA guards and tackles and adding yet another 450 lb project to go along with his other project, Tackle for Heyer.

So now,when you have your ancient RG go down and lose your LT to injury, that whole BPA philosophy REALLY helps a glaring problem area.

[HoggLife]

I am starting to think Vinnie isnt liked that much???