FORBES: America's Best College, How West Point beats the Ivy League.

[JMS]

Sounds like someone got their ass kicked by a cadet;)

Or someone knew a cadat who committed suicide and was shocked to find out the numbers and history of mental health incidents at the military academies are classified.

That someone now follows the incidents and problems at the academies pretty closely.

[jpillian]

Or someone knew a cadat who committed suicide and was shocked to find out the numbers and history of mental health incidents at the military academies are classified.

That someone now follows the incidents and problems at the academies pretty closely.

Classified?

I'd be extremely surprised if that were the case.

These two articles talk about recent suicides at West Point. Certainly seems like they are being about as forthcoming as you would expect.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/02/ap_west_point_suicides_021109/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/29/AR2009012904135.html

[dchogs]

all these lists are generally bunk in terms of specific position.

generally though, first tier schools ARE better than second tier schools (obviously with more error the closer to the margins you get).

having juniata college ranked just 2 spots behind brown and ahead of upenn and vanderbuilt is crazy. no knock on juniata, but it's not close to those other schools. my school, kenyon, is #22. way too high, though it is definitely a solid tier 1 school overall and a top LAC specifically.

using ratemyprofessor.com and payscale.com to generate data is bogus. too subjective.

[Sticksboi05]

all these lists are generally bunk in terms of specific position.

generally though, first tier schools ARE better than second tier schools (obviously with more error the closer to the margins you get).

having juniata college ranked just 2 spots behind brown and ahead of upenn and vanderbuilt is crazy. no knock on juniata, but it's not close to those other schools. my school, kenyon, is #22. way too high, though it is definitely a solid tier 1 school overall and a top LAC specifically.

using ratemyprofessor.com and payscale.com to generate data is bogus. too subjective.

My dad went to Kenyon

[dchogs]

My dad went to Kenyon

must be a smart dude.

i do enjoy seeing denison (kenyon's local rival in most things) being so low though. 125 seems about right for them, if not too high.

[Prosperity]

College senior Raymond Vetter gets up at dawn to fit in a run or a workout. Then, hair shorn neatly and pants pressed, he marches into breakfast, where he sits in an assigned seat. After six hours of instruction in such subjects as Japanese literature and systems engineering, two hours of intramural sports and another family-style meal with underclassmen, Vetter rushes to return to his room by the 11:30 p.m. curfew.

Most college students, we think, do not march to meals. A goodly number of them drink into the wee hours, duck morning classes and fail to hit the gym with any regularity. But Vetter, 21, is a cadet at the U.S. Military Academy in West Point, N.Y., where college life is a bit different.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0824/colleges-09-education-west-point-america-best-college.html

--------------------------------------------------------

Definitely would never make one of the "Top Party School" lists.

did you go to West Point?

[Predicto]

The service academies are very impressive in many ways and should be rated highly by any objective measure.

But that list, overall, is total crap. The methodology is crap, and the results are crap.

College rankings in general are useless, but these are particularly useless.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Whatever, you can say it without putting down colleges. Wouldn't you be offended if someone told you your alma matter was crap.

VCU is a ****hole

[Skinsfan1311]

Or someone knew a cadat who committed suicide and was shocked to find out the numbers and history of mental health incidents at the military academies are classified.

That someone now follows the incidents and problems at the academies pretty closely.

Now you're just making me feel bad.

I'm a Navy brat. In the early eighties, my dad was Secretary to the Commandant at the Naval Academy. I have more than a passing interest when someone disparages the military academies so vehemently.

Given that you know a cadet. who committed suicide, I can certainly understand your thoughts on the subject. That is a tragic thing, especially when it happens to someone so young. I'm truly sorry to hear that. Those types of things happen all too often, in all walks of life, military or otherwise.

I also have several friends and classmates, who attended West Point, the Naval Academy and the Citadel.

Here's my view, (rather simplistic), but based on my experience growing up in a military family, (brother was in the Army, son was a soldier, grandfather attended West Point and Dad was in the Navy for 38 years). No, I've never been in the military, though my Dad often offered to swear me in

The numbers of mental health incidents probably wouldn't surprise me. It's probably not much different than those that happen at boot camp. It may even be worse for cadets & plebes because, in many cases, those selected for the military academies are supposed to be the "best of the best". They probably excelled in high school and in other facets of their lives.

At the academies, they're just another face in the crowd and, in all likelyhood, challenged more physically, and mentally, than they ever have been in their lives. They're very young people, who have never left home. My Dad told me that many of them got homesick.

That being said, in regards to the "mental health" incidents, why would they be made public. Don't you think that the people involved are entitled to their privacy?

[JMS]

That being said, in regards to the "mental health" incidents, why would they be made public. Don't you think that the people involved are entitled to their privacy?

I would agree with you if they actually protected the names of folks who committed suicide.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/29/AR2009012904135.html

On Jan. 2, cadet Gordon Fein shot and killed himself while at home in North Carolina on leave, and on Dec. 8 cadet Alfred D. Fox, a junior, took his life at a motel near campus by allowing a helium tank to empty in the room while he slept.

"He never woke up," said a cadet familiar with the case who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to reporters.

Unfortunately for your point they protect the comprehensive statistics of mental health incidents at the acadamies including the comprehenive list of suicides.

They aren't protecting the students, they are protecting themselves.

Jan 2009 they had four attempted suicides in a month, two suceeded.

Military Investigates West Point Suicides

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/29/AR2009012904135.html

I would not send my child to the Military Acadamies. I would not recomend the Military Acadamies to a child I knew. The education is not on par with traditional schools, the traditions are not conducive to learning or fostering maturity, and the track records of the schools graduates show you are more likely to progress higher in the military coming out of an more traditional scholastic atmosphere.

As for the best of the best. That's a joke too. Senators and Congressmen appoint the cadets. Some take the job seriously and have good programs to grant their billets. Many many do not. Appointments to the achademies are given away as political favors to patrons or friends. Note... former secretary of defense William Cohen, a former senator, two sons both go to military academys. That's the best of the best for you. Simple Patronage.

[JMS]

Classified?

I'd be extremely surprised if that were the case.

These two articles talk about recent suicides at West Point. Certainly seems like they are being about as forthcoming as you would expect.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/02/ap_west_point_suicides_021109/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/29/AR2009012904135.html

It's kind of hard to cover up four suicide attemps in a month at one school, two suceeding. (West Point).

Parents of Cadets have FOIA requests out for comprehensive numbers that can be used in court to force the academies to addresss their problems. Those numbers have not been forthcoming. It's gone all the way up to the secretary of defenses desk trying to obtain the numbers.

I haven't heard about this recently ( last three months) but to my knowledge they have not been sucessful.

[jpillian]

JMS - I'm sorry to hear about your acquaintance that committed suicide. Quite frankly, I think it's coloring your opinion.

Your "critique" of the service academies standard of excellence in who they admit and what they produce is laughable. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

[mcsluggo]

An interesting rating scheme for sure. Looking at the public colleges you have Westpoint first, the Air Force Academy second and Annapolis third.

William & Mary comes fourth and UVA sixth.

My daughter heads to W&M in a couple of weeks so I like its rating ahead of every other non-military public school, especially the douches at UVA .

But looking at their rating methodology you can see why the military academies do so well:

25% of the score is based on post graduation employment success.

16.7% is based on graduation within four years

20% is based on the level of debt after graduation

25% based on student satisfaction with their instruction

Given that it's hardly surprising the academies came out top.

uh yes. That is absolutely moronic to "rate" academies compared to regular universities on that criteria. downright intellectually dishonest.

--- and FWIW, when i finished grad school, I was on the fence between teaching at Annapolis, and coming back to DC for my current job... and then those navy fools had the audacity not to give me the final offer. clearly morons

[Redskins Diehard]

Here is my controversial opinion for the day...

Military academies are worthless relics of a bygone era. Sexual harassment, religious intolerance, just general manors the record of our military academies would not be tolerated in other institutes of higher education. Our military academies fail minimal tests of competence at minimal goals of what we expect from institutes of higher education. Worse than that, our military academies fail even more spectacularly at their more ambitious requirements. They are very prestigious and fraught with tradition, but for education and for their primary responsibility of training tomorrow’s military leaders they are utter failures...

Most military Academy graduates leave the military as soon as they can ( more than 50% don't go beyond their initial commitment). Used to be a majority of flag grade officers in this country came out of the Academies, today that's not the case. The vast majority of military graduates never rise beyond junior officer status. Those that do are the exception.

Last 10 CJCS only 3 have been military achademy graduates, and at one time only 1 out of the last 8 were from the academies.

• David Charles Jones, Troy State
  
• John William Vessey, Jr., U of Maryland
  
• William J. Crowe, Naval Academy
  
• Colin Powell, City College NY
  
• David E. Jeremiah, U of O
  
• Shalikashvili, Bradly University
  
• Sheldon, NC State
  
• Myers, Kansas State
  
• Peter Pace, Naval Academy
  
• Michael Mullen, Naval Academy
  

The Percentage of flag grade officers from the military academies is much worse. Our military leadership just doesn't come from and isn't dependent on the academies anymore.

Publishing numbers on suicides, mental health, or even statistics on progressing up the ranks our modern military academies don't fair well with ROTC programs which cost less to operate and give their students a better more grounded education.

Our academies are run by amateurs and dabblers in higher education. Their ideas of how to train leaders haven’t progressed but have rather regressed over the last 100 years. They are out of step and soon should be out of time.

You left off Petraeus and McChrystal.

Do you have a source on the "more than 50%" don't go past their initial commitment?

What % of ROTC graduates stay on past their commitment?

So 30% of the Chairmen come out of a Service Academy. What percentage of the officer corps comes from a Service Academy? I bet the Academies are over represented in that particular duty assignment.

[Redskins Diehard]

did you go to West Point?

Yes.

[Redskins Diehard]

Your "critique" of the service academies standard of excellence in who they admit and what they produce is laughable. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

That about sums it up.

Well add to it the "classified" nature of the number of suicides.

[Skinsfan1311]

I would agree with you if they actually protected the names of folks who committed suicide.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/29/AR2009012904135.html

Unfortunately for your point they protect the comprehensive statistics of mental health incidents at the acadamies including the comprehenive list of suicides.

They aren't protecting the students, they are protecting themselves.

Jan 2009 they had four attempted suicides in a month, two suceeded.

I would not send my child to the Military Acadamies. I would not recomend the Military Acadamies to a child I knew. The education is not on par with traditional schools, the traditions are not conducive to learning or fostering maturity, and the track records of the schools graduates show you are more likely to progress higher in the military coming out of an more traditional scholastic atmosphere.

As for the best of the best. That's a joke too. Senators and Congressmen appoint the cadets. Some take the job seriously and have good programs to grant their billets. Many many do not. Appointments to the achademies are given away as political favors to patrons or friends. Note... former secretary of defense William Cohen, a former senator, two sons both go to military academys. That's the best of the best for you. Simple Patronage.

Then I will respectfully agree to disagree.

If someone is mentally unstable enough to commit suicide, then they probably would've done so, whether they attended West Point, the Naval Academy, or Anne Arundel Community College.

Once you've committed suicide, the "doctor/patient" confidentiality goes out the window.

I personally know several people who were recommended to West Point & the Naval Academy. They weren't friends, or patrons to any senators. They were damn smart. They were academic leaders, and fine young men. They certainly fit the mold of the "best of the best"

They just don't hand out appointments. You have to meet high academic standards and demonstrate that you've been a leader in your school and community.

Your posts seem clouded by the tragedy that befell your friend. They are insulting and do a disservice to the young people who attend, and attended, those institutions.

[Predicto]

Your "critique" of the service academies standard of excellence in who they admit and what they produce is laughable. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

On the other hand, you must admit the service academies have very difficult admissions standards, but nothing like Harvard, Yale etc.

West Point SAT Scores

25th / 75th Percentile

SAT Critical Reading: 560 / 670

SAT Math: 590 / 680

Harvard SAT Scores

Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile

SAT Critical Reading: 690 / 800

SAT Math: 700 / 780

Those aren't even close. In fact, West Point's test scores are lower than many, many universities. For example, all the Ivies, a coule dozen other private colleges, the top public schools like UVa, UNC, Michigan, UCLA, Berkeley - all have noticeably higher test scores than West Point. West Point's scores are about the same as American University.

Now, I know that SAT scores are not the be all and end all, that West Point admissions take into account different factors than pure academics, and there is a lot more that goes into a great military officer than test scores. Nevertheless, those numbers tell me something.

[JMS]

JMS - I'm sorry to hear about your acquaintance that committed suicide. Quite frankly, I think it's coloring your opinion.

My opinions with the military acadamies go back decades. I don't think you can make a logical argument for their existance. They no longer supply the nation with a significant number of flag officers. They are not cost effective way to train the few flag grade officers which do come out of these institutions. They are anachronisms who's time has come.

Beyond that, It's not like they are even sucessful in turning out well adjusted graduates. From the suicides, to the mental health problems, to the grand theft auto rings, to the sexual abuse cases, to the religous bigotry they foster.

We would not tolerate these behaviors in a normal school, I don't see why we would support them in a school which proports to be more important to the nation than normal schools.

Your "critique" of the service academies standard of excellence in who they admit and what they produce is laughable. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

Actually I critiqued it after, I gave two factual examples. One of who they admitted... Two twin sons of a senator and future secretary of defense; Another of what happens to their graduates... More than fifty percent of whom quite the military when their obligation is up and the vast majorty of the graduates never reaching beyond the junior officer ranks. Finally I noted only three of the last ten CJCS were from teh academies at one time it was 1 out of 8. The academies just aren't that important to the military anymore. We get the vast majority of our officers, from institutions which are cheaper and frankly turn out better and more reliable leaders. This is proven by the fact that flag officers overwhelmingly don't come from the academies...

Those are the hard facts.

[JMS]

Then I will respectfully agree to disagree.

If someone is mentally unstable enough to commit suicide, then they probably would've done so, whether they attended West Point, the Naval Academy, or Anne Arundel Community College.

Yeah because the institutions famous haizing isn't any sort of mental preasure at all is it.

Once you've committed suicide, the "doctor/patient" confidentiality goes out the window.

Yeah but the overall statistics remain secret? You don't need to know names to know the percentages.

[JMS]

On the other hand, you must admit the service academies have very difficult admissions standards, but nothing like Harvard, Yale etc.

West Point SAT Scores

25th / 75th Percentile

SAT Critical Reading: 560 / 670

SAT Math: 590 / 680

Harvard SAT Scores

Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile

SAT Critical Reading: 690 / 800

SAT Math: 700 / 780

Those aren't even close. In fact, West Point's test scores are lower than many, many universities. For example, all the Ivies, a coule dozen other private colleges, the top public schools like UVa, UNC, Michigan, UCLA, Berkeley - all have noticeably higher test scores than West Point. West Point's scores are about the same as American University.

Now, I know that SAT scores are not the be all and end all, that West Point admissions take into account different factors than pure academics, and there is a lot more that goes into a great military officer than test scores. Nevertheless, those numbers tell me something.

Fact is most of our mid level officers and the vast majority of our flag grade officers don't come from the military academies.

Fact is even if you had a 1500 on your SAT's you couldn't necessarily go to West Point. Each congressment and senator has an appointment and they are the ones who get to decide who goes regardess of test scores SAT scores or anything. It's all up to the politicians...

Some take it seriously, many don't.

[JMS]

You left off Petraeus and McChrystal.

They aren't among the Chairman of the Joint Cheifs of Staff.

Do you have a source on the "more than 50%" don't go past their initial commitment?

West Point grads exit service at high rate

According to statistics compiled by West Point, of the 903 Army officers commissioned upon graduation in 2001, nearly 46 percent left the service last year -- 35 percent at the conclusion of their five years of required service, and another 11 percent over the next six months. And more than 54 percent of the 935 graduates in the class of 2000 had left active duty by this January, the statistics show.

.

That's right. much fewer general officers come out of the academies. In WWI and WWII the academies provided the vast majority of general officers, that number has been going down and down and down.

[Skinsfan1311]

Yeah because the institutions famous haizing isn't any sort of mental preasure at all is it.

That's weak.

If someone kills themself because they were hazed in college, then they had some serious problems before they ever entered one of the academies.

Maybe someone should look at their family situations, instead of laying the blame at the doorsteps of the schools.

They only had the students for a few years, yet their parents had them for the previous eighteen. If their own families couldn't recognize that their children had issues, how could one expect the schools to?

[sacase]

Yeah because the institutions famous haizing isn't any sort of mental preasure at all is it.

If you can't handle a little hazing how are you going to handle war. The Acadamy is designed to push you to your limits and beyond. These young men are going to be expected to lead in combat.

Yeah but the overall statistics remain secret? You don't need to know names to know the percentages.

I seriously doubt anything in the Acadamy is classified. At the most it should be FOUO. If it was classified secret then a FOIA would probably not shake it loose.

[sacase]

Fact is most of our mid level officers and the vast majority of our flag grade officers don't come from the military academies.

Maybe that is because the acadamies only produce 15-20% of the officer corps depending on branch. For instance Over half of the Army is from ROTC, only 15% are from the service acadamies.

http://www.defenselink.mil/prhome/poprep2004/officers/commission.html

Further more if you look at the ROTC programs, they didn't really get started till the 1920's (Air Force and Navy) The Army had it much earlier.

If you want to talk about the best leaders the military has, most enlisted will tell you that they are the guys that are former enlisted. Many of them never reach flag officer rank though. West point Cadets I have run into are actually pretty sharp.I think they are more prepared to lead when they come onto active duty than ROTC cadets. Prior service officers are the only ones who have them beat when it comes to being ready to lead from day one.