ABC: Torture Tape Implicates UAE Royal Sheikh (graphic video)

[Destino]

Pouring water on a dude's face to save a 100+ story tall building and the thousands of lives inside (and nearby) do you do it? Yes or no.

We don't do this ****, and you're being deliberately inflammatory. Much like our own president, to our GRAVE detriment.

I've really lost my patience for people playing stupid or too damn dishonest to talk about this issue frankly. This "we don't really torture" line is ridiculous. Have you heard about extraordinary rendition? The stories have been out for YEARS. The ones that need to be really tortured get flown somewhere without a annoying judicial system or constitution to get in the way. The ones here aren't exactly treated with "pouring water on a dudes face" which is like describing burning as "warming".

It's meant to simulate drowning and cause panic and fear. They do it OVER AND OVER again for DAYS. When not making your brain think it's about to die you get placed in a "stress position" which is extremely painful over long periods of time when your muscles begin to cramp and give out.

Then you make the classic BS argument. One torture for a building. Have you really convinced yourself that it works that way? How many get water lightly sprinkled over thier heads before any useful information is obtained? What court system has proven they are guilty?

[Hubbs]

And did you also know that we only waterboard when there is factual evidence that leads to the suspect plotting to harm US soil. You are delusional man....there is no other way to put this. I can't seem to comprehend that there are actually people in this world who firmly believe that we shouldn't torture ALQ to save 100+ human lives. You say your not religious, i say what a load of BS coming from your mouth. Only religious maniacs would be against torturing to save human lives.

At this point, I'm gonna give the only response a post like that really deserves:

[twa]

I agree with this statement, but not for the reasons you think.

Our weakness, to me, is our failure to live up to the ideals of our Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Our cowardice is our willingness to condone torture and cruelty because it suits us in the heat of the moment.

Our downfall will be losing the greatness of our national experiment in individual rights and the rule of law, and becoming just another crappy country with a government that does what it wants to when it wants to and gets away with it because it has all the power.

Maybe we can change our name to the United States of Same As Everybody Else, but Richer and with More Nukes. Because that is all we will be then.

I hope you apply that consistently across all the ideals and rights,if so I commend you.

Must not think much of Lincoln eh?

[Thiebear]

People in here will cut out 98% of your statement and then completely attack a statement that was 2% of your thought as if it was the only thing said.

torture that is.

[Predicto]

I hope you apply that consistently across all the ideals and rights,if so I commend you.

Must not think much of Lincoln eh?

I do my best. I'm not perfect.

I do not pretend that Abraham Lincoln was perfect either.

:whoknows:

[TheGoodBits]

I agree with this statement, but not for the reasons you think.

Our weakness, to me, is our failure to live up to the ideals of our Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Our cowardice is our willingness to condone torture and cruelty because it suits us in the heat of the moment.

Our downfall will be losing the greatness of our national experiment in individual rights and the rule of law, and becoming just another crappy country with a government that does what it wants to when it wants to and gets away with it because it has all the power.

Maybe we can change our name to the United States of Same As Everybody Else, but Richer and with More Nukes. Because that is all we will be then.

Great post

[BigMike619]

I love that people give no excuse for the heat of the moment. they want to live and die by the constitution like it is a perfect document.

i also think its funny that the same people who are so against torture are the same people who go off on tangents calling out names and being aggressive.

i think jack said it best in a few good men. he is someone that you need on that wall..he is someone you need to be doing the dirt you dont want to get on your pretty white outfit.

[twa]

I do my best. I'm not perfect.

I do not pretend that Abraham Lincoln was perfect either.

:whoknows:

Sadly none of us are,just as Lincoln faced tough choices...so do our leaders now.

Sometimes you must simply hope the means work towards a better tomorrow imo

[Predicto]

Sadly none of us are,just as Lincoln faced tough choices...so do our leaders now.

Sometimes you must simply hope the means work towards a better tomorrow imo

If the situation ever arises where there actually is a ticking nuclear bomb in the basement of a skyscrapers somewhere, and Jack Bauer has to beat the location out of a terrorist that surely knows the location, then I will take that into account.

The stories that I have been reading about what the previous Administration was doing to untold numbers of people at Gitmo and other places, and renditioning many more prisoners to other countries to do for us... I don't consider those to be the same sort of tough choices (some people here apparently do).

[Destino]

I love that people give no excuse for the heat of the moment. they want to live and die by the constitution like it is a perfect document.

What heat of the moment? This is policy that was put into place and has been in operation for almost 8 years.

Also the constitution may not be perfect but it's as close as we've ever been able to get. It's certainly far closer to perfect than a society that abandons everything it pretending to stand for at the first hint of fear and risk. We are facing an enemy that has no ability to defeat us. Allow me to say it again: an enemy that does not have the ability to defeat us!!! That is not enough to scrap the dream and embrace a whatever might work philosophy. We've stared down the largest nuclear arsenal in the world outside of our own and didn't blink. We've turn back the nazi and helped save the entire world. Why on earth would we self destruct in the face of cave dwelling lunatics that at best can cause damage every few years?! I don't think it's time to hit the panic button. It's time to win the fight our way on our terms as we've done in the past.

We will win. There is no doubt.

[Dan T.]

What heat of the moment? This is policy that was put into place and has been in operation for almost 8 years.

Also the constitution may not be perfect but it's as close as we've ever been able to get. It's certainly far closer to perfect than a society that abandons everything it pretending to stand for at the first hint of fear and risk. We are facing an enemy that has no ability to defeat us. Allow me to say it again: an enemy that does not have the ability to defeat us!!! That is not enough to scrap the dream and embrace a whatever might work philosophy. We've stared down the largest nuclear arsenal in the world outside of our own and didn't blink. We've turn back the nazi and helped save the entire world. Why on earth would we self destruct in the face of cave dwelling lunatics that at best can cause damage every few years?! I don't think it's time to hit the panic button. It's time to win the fight our way on our terms as we've done in the past.

We will win. There is no doubt.

God bless you, and God bless America. And I say that with all sincerity.

[GoSkins561]

It's meant to simulate drowning and cause panic and fear. They do it OVER AND OVER again for DAYS. When not making your brain think it's about to die you get placed in a "stress position" which is extremely painful over long periods of time when your muscles begin to cramp and give out.

Then you make the classic BS argument. One torture for a building. Have you really convinced yourself that it works that way? How many get water lightly sprinkled over thier heads before any useful information is obtained? What court system has proven they are guilty?

Seriously? How many families might have had to mourn the loss of their child, brother, mother or sister if in fact our advanced interogation technics worked. Losing a loved one because of these fools ill will towards Americans is torture, making them think they are drowning when they really are not is NOT torture. The videos you see here are torture, giving them a nice stretch is NOT.

I am amazed at how many people would rather see the loss of American life instead of messing with the mind of one, five or a hundred terrorists.

[BigMike619]

What heat of the moment? This is policy that was put into place and has been in operation for almost 8 years.

Also the constitution may not be perfect but it's as close as we've ever been able to get. It's certainly far closer to perfect than a society that abandons everything it pretending to stand for at the first hint of fear and risk. We are facing an enemy that has no ability to defeat us. Allow me to say it again: an enemy that does not have the ability to defeat us!!! That is not enough to scrap the dream and embrace a whatever might work philosophy. We've stared down the largest nuclear arsenal in the world outside of our own and didn't blink. We've turn back the nazi and helped save the entire world. Why on earth would we self destruct in the face of cave dwelling lunatics that at best can cause damage every few years?! I don't think it's time to hit the panic button. It's time to win the fight our way on our terms as we've done in the past.

We will win. There is no doubt.

self destruct? you act like we are out of control and just beating people willy nilly. No, what we are doing is going after people who we think are terrorists and have information and using extreme measures to try and extract that info.

The Constitution is not really that perfect but it is good. It always needs tweaking and changing as times change. That is my opinion and I fully believe that as wars change and terrorism evolves the way we deal with it should adjust accordingly.

By heat of the moment I meant when we capture the latest #2 of AQ and smack him up, waterboard him in order to figure out where they are going to attack next. I dont mean the law itself.

And I agree with you, we will win. But how we go about it is where we differ.

[Prosperity]

Seriously? How many families might have had to mourn the loss of their child, brother, mother or sister if in fact our advanced interogation technics worked. Losing a loved one because of these fools ill will towards Americans is torture, making them think they are drowning when they really are not is NOT torture. The videos you see here are torture, giving them a nice stretch is NOT.

I am amazed at how many people would rather see the loss of American life instead of messing with the mind of one, five or a hundred terrorists.

This is a false dichotomy

[GoSkins561]

This is a false dichotomy

Americans over Terrorists any day right? makes sense to me.

[Prosperity]

Americans over Terrorists any day right? makes sense to me.

No one is disputing that, either the more nuanced point is lost on you, or you are using obviously fallacious rhetorical tactics to manipulate others

[GoSkins561]

No one is disputing that, either the more nuanced point is lost on you, or you are using obviously fallacious rhetorical tactics to manipulate others

I am not trying to manipulate, IMO I am just calling a spade a spade. I don't see out practices as torture and I don't care what we do to terrorists in order to get information that could potentially protect American lives. I do like the fact that we don't actually torture people, like this tool in the video.

I can also honestly say, I do not understand the opposing view point on this issue, I really don't. If we were ripping peoples finger nails off, poking their eyes out, chopping fingers and testicles off I would completely understand and possibly join in, depending on the circumstances but IMO we don't torture people.

[Predicto]

Americans over Terrorists any day right? makes sense to me.

I'm sure it does.

But that's not really the choice, is it?

[BigMike619]

I'm sure it does.

But that's not really the choice, is it?

just out of curiousity, what is the choice in your opinion?

[Red-Head]

Well I think that or their laws might have something to do with it. You don't see the leaders of France, Germany, USA, Mexico, or Canada, etc, etc, etc, etc, acting like this do you?

However if you look at Arabian countries, Iran, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Aphganistan, Pakistan, _______, _________, _______, _________, etc, etc, etc, you probably see stuff like this every day.

Wow, you just exposed your tremendous ignorance.

The majority of the countries you just named are not "Arabian" (Arab)

Only the UAE and Saudi Arabia are.

[Predicto]

just out of curiousity, what is the choice in your opinion?

In this situation, I'll go with:

Torture lots of people we *suspect* might be terrorists that we *speculate* might have information that we *hope* might stop future attacks that we *fear* might be being planned

or

Follow our constitutional principles and treaty obligations.

I admit, if and when the Jack Bauer ticking nuke in downtown Chicago scenario actually happens that I will look the other way at what is done in that situation.

[Prosperity]

"I admit, if and when the Jack Bauer ticking nuke in downtown Chicago scenario actually happens that I will look the other way at what is done in that situation."

that's what presidential pardons are for... EXCEPTIONS

if there need to be specific exceptions then that's ok, but it's the systemic torture that can lead to continued use, and maybe even against US citizens one day

[BigMike619]

In this situation, I'll go with:

Torture lots of people we *suspect* might be terrorists that we *speculate* might have information that we *hope* might stop future attacks that we *fear* might be being planned

or

Follow our constitutional principles and treaty obligations.

I admit, if and when the Jack Bauer ticking nuke in downtown Chicago scenario actually happens that I will look the other way at what is done in that situation.

so, technically he was right though. they arent americans.

and honestly, the day the nuke in Chicago happens it is probably going to be too late. this is like preventative maint...if one guy is able to get a nuke going (i know this is an exaggeration by the way) then he is probably part of a cell that is dug in nicely.

[[[ghost]]]

I thought the argument was that it was being Muslim that caused this?

It was until it didn't fit his argument any more.

Perhaps try not proving him wrong?

[Hubbs]

By heat of the moment I meant when we capture the latest #2 of AQ and smack him up, waterboard him in order to figure out where they are going to attack next. I dont mean the law itself.

How incredibly ironic that the guy who was actually in charge of interrogating the #2 AQ guy in Iraq wrote an entire damn book about how, when he got there, the CIA's aggressive tactics weren't working, so he and his team switched to completely non-physical attacks that got boatloads of information from him and led to the capture/killing of a whole bunch of other AQ asshats. You know, just like Nazi Germany's "Master Interrogator," the one who had no moral reason to forego torture but ordered his men to never, ever be physical with prisoners because it prevented gathering information, designed his program.

But, hey, torture works, what if Jack Bauer and a unicorn have two and half minutes to stop thirty thousand nukes from going off, etc., etc. Saving American lives isn't important as long as you can do what you think saves them in the world you've made up in your head, but actually leads to more of them dying.