I think the Redskins have a good chance at getting Cutler.

[Streater101]

I was talking to G.A.C.O.L.B. about it last night. If Snyder really covets this guy, then he'll get him, no matter what it takes.

Remember the offer he made for Ocho Cinco? 2 first rounders? The Bengals are absolutely retarded for not jumping on that.

The only thing dumber than the Skins makin such a proposal was the Bungles turning it down. They got zero production out of Chad anyway, and they could have been going into this years draft picking 6 and 13.

[Thinking Skins]

If you think that is choking......don't look at Campbell's records in the last 5-6 games of every season he has finished.

But you'd agree that Cutler wasn't the savior for Denver's season. He played some of his worse games when it counted.

If we're going by the motto "paloffs is now", then Cutler sucks in the playoffs. I'm not here to defend Campbell, but I will defend the (Campbell plus package) over Cutler because (1) I just don't think Cutler is the savior people are callimg him and (2) Although we could/would win with Cutler, I think we can win with Campbell.

[Streater101]

i think Cutler is better QB at this point than Campbell for sure.. if you argue otherwise needs to take their Redskins goggles off...

However Cutler is no Tom Brady, Peyton Manning... and we are not just a good QB away from a SB so giving up Campbell PLUS first round picks PLUS cap space for a guy that is most likley not going to put you over the top is too much aint it?

From what I've seen of Cutler, I would say that he his light years ahead of Campbell right now. He diagnoses defenses and gets the ball to his target in a HURRY. I remember seeing him roll right and throw a 40 yard strike across his body down the middle of the field. It was one of the most impressive throws I've seen. I would personally be willing to give up quite a bit to get Jay - don't know if I could do 2 1st tho, since Campbell is far from done, and we still haven't seen Brennan can do with the 1st team offense.

And I disagree with your comment about being a QB away. For the most part, your offense comes and goes with your QB. Imagine what our defense could do to a team thats one dimensional because they have to abandon the run. Most of the more dramatic turn arounds have coincided with teams getting more production out of their quarterback, like when Parcells decided to go with Romo sits to pee (remember how awful they were when he was hurt) Palmer and Cinci, Peyton in his 2nd season with the Colts, McNabb helped make Philly a perennial Super Bowl contender, Brees in San Diego, Warner in St Louis and Arizona etc...

[McD5]

But you'd agree that Cutler wasn't the savior for Denver's season. He played some of his worse games when it counted.

If we're going by the motto "paloffs is now", then Cutler sucks in the playoffs. I'm not here to defend Campbell, but I will defend the (Campbell plus package) over Cutler because (1) I just don't think Cutler is the savior people are callimg him and (2) Although we could/would win with Cutler, I think we can win with Campbell.

You just saw a post above showing that Campbell sucks more at the end of the seasons, and if anyone should be called a choke-artist, it is Campbell before Cutler.

Here is the thing. When has Campbell ever been good?

The Skins were good, when we were 6-2, but Campbell wasn't on fire, carrying the team.

He threw one touchdown pass a game during that winning streak. We won in spite of him, not because of him.

Denver doesn't win because their defense is as good as ours. Their defense is one of the worst in the league. Someone has to pick up the slack.

Denver doesn't win because they have Portis.

Denver wins because they have Jay Cutler. The Redskins win because we have many players better than Campbell--players that carry him.

[GaryGreenMonk]

the Eagles have a good chance at losing a bunch of good players and picking no one good up to take their place....

oh wait... that already happened....

nevermind.

[Warhead36]

Campbell is a "game manager." He isn't awful at all. He won't lose you a game, but he won't go out and win you one. He can't carry you and he doesn't elevate the players around him like a great QB has to do.

If you want long term success in the NFL, you need a great QB. Of course teams win without one or in spite of one, but over the long run it's all about the QB. Cutler looks like the real deal or on the verge of being one. Campbell is on the verge of journeyman backup status.

[bubba9497]

If you're going to compare

1. at least get your figures correct

2. don't Cherry pick stats that only backs your side, and leave out important details that can change the actual perception of each stat

Campbell has played in 35 games.

Total TD passes in a game from 33 starts:

0: 10

1: 18

2: 7

3+: 1

He's played in 36 games total, with 35 TD's, and 23 INT's. So, his INT's aren't too bad, but he throws just under 1 TD/game. Simply not enough production for a 1st round pick.

Campbell has started 36 games

06 the Skins went 5-11 they were 3-6 when he made his first start

07 the Skins went 6-7 in his 13 starts, before being injured, during that time the team lost ST first to injury then his tragic death, during that time the defense was horrible without him, but pulled together the final 4 games to allow fewer yards, and points... and almost double the number of turnovers the last month compared to the previous 3 months

Lets compare him to cutler.

Record as a starter

Campbell: 15-20 .428

Cutler: 17-20 .459

Campbell 16-20 as a starter .444%

TD/INT Ratio:

Campbell: 1.52

Cutler: 1.45

Campbell int ratio in 08 .02% or 1 in 84.3 att.

Cutler int ratio in 08 .03% or 1 in 34.2 att.

Campbell int ratio in career .02% or 1 in 49.1 att., or .6 int a game

Cutler int ratio in career .03% or 1 in 32.9 att. or 1.0 int a game

Multiple TD Games:

Campbell: 8 in 35 games

Cutler: 17 in 37 games

Zero TD Games:

Campbell: 10 in 35 games, 28.5% of games

Cutler: 6 in 37 games, 16.2% of games

Cutler has 12 more TD's in 1 more start, but 14 more Ints

what's not show is the number of garbage time TD's Cutler had playing from behind

ex. Cutler had 12 td passes when playing from behind, 5 td passes when playing from behind 9+ points

Touchdowns when behind

Campbell- 264/160 60.6% 6 TD 4 Int 82.6 QBR

Cutler- 336/196 58.3% 12 TD 12 Int 76.2 QBR

Touchdowns when behind 9-16

Campbell- 119/69 58.0% 3 TD 0 Int 90.6 QBR

Cutler- 164/88 53.7% 5 TD 7 Int 68.0 QBR

or the fact that that Cutler had 8 TD passes in 149 att. over att #31+

Attempts 31+

Campbell- 45/28 62.2% 332 1 TD 2 Int 73.6 QBR

Cutler- 149/88 59.1% 959 8 TD 5 Int 82.0 QBR

nor does it show their Red Zone prowess

Red Zone

Campbell- 63/32 50.8% 11 TD 1 Int 91.5 QBR

Cutler- 84/39 46.4% 17 TD 4 Int 74.1 QBR

Passing Yards

Campbell: 7,242. 201 YPG

Cutler: 9,024. 243 YPG

you leave out a couple important facts like Cutler had 110 more attempts in 08 (616 to Campbell's 506), played against inferior pass defenses (by a wide margin) and had a better receiving corp

Cutler rarely faced a top 10 ranked Defense/Pass combined defense(only once Tampa), only 4 times against either a top 10 Defense or Pass Defense

OK- 16/24 300 2 0, OD #27, Pass D #10

TB- 23/34 227 1 0, OD #9, Pass D #4

OK- 16/37 204 0 1, OD #27, Pass D #10

NE- 17/26 168 1 2, OD #10, Pass D #11

10 games facing #16 or below ranked Defense/Pass Defense combined

While Campbell faced teams 8 times (half of his games ) rated in the top 10 Defense/Pass Defense combined (including #1 Pitt., #2 Balt., #3 Philly - twice) and a top 15 ranked Defense and/or Pass Defense 11 times

Cutlers top 5 recievers

Brandon Marshall 104 1,265

Eddie Royal 91 980

Brandon Stokley 49 528

Tony Scheffler 40 645

Daniel Graham 32 389

Campbell's Top 5 Receivers

Chris Cooley 83 849

Santana Moss 79 1044

Antwaan Randle El 53 593

Clinton Portis 28 218

Ladell Betts 22 200

Devin Thomas 15 120

I said receivers, but included the RB's for Washington, to prove my point. Denver's top 2 WR had more catches than Cooley, our top pass catcher

Not to mention better protection

Cutler was sacked only 11 times in 08, 51 times in 37 starts

Campbell was sacked 38 times in 08, 66 times in 36 starts

So, you can see from a production standpoint, they are similar in TD/INT ratio, but cutler blasts campbell in TD's/game, multiple TD games, and passing yards. His record is slightly better, which doesnt seem like a big difference, until you see the other side of the ball.

I believe I have shown that Cutlers production isn't as impressive as you think, when more details are given

and as far as TD passing equaling wins... they don't

Roethlisberger threw 17 TD's, Kerry Collins 12 td's, Joe Flacco 14 tds, Matt Ryan 16 tds.... all 11 win plus, playoff teams

the top 4 QB's in TD passes, their teams finish 9-7 (Warner 30), 8-8 twice (Brees & Rivers 34 each), and 6-10 (Rogers 28) for a combined record of 31-33

plus the Bronco's went 8-8 with Cutler's 25 TD passes)

The past 3 seasons, Campbell has worked with defenses ranked 4th (2008), 8th (2007), and 30th (2006, ouch). The 30th defense was campbell's first year, with 7 games played. Campbell has also played with a rushing offense ranked 8th (2008), 12th (2007), and 4th (2006).

The past 3 seasons, Cutler has worked with defenses ranked 29th (2008), 11th (2007), and 21st (2006). 2006, cutler only played 5 games. Cutler played with rushing offenses ranked 12th (2008), 9th (2007), and 8th (2006).

and exactly what does that have to do with either's offensive production? :hysterical:

To summarize, cutler has put up way more yards and TD's, similar TD/INT ratio, far more multiple TD games, far fewer zero TD games, and a higher winning percentage despite playing with a less productive running game and a significantly worse defense.

Sign me up on the "sign cutler" bandwagon.

the Bronco's run game wasn't that bad

Rushing

07 Broncos #9 1,957 yards, #3T 4.6 YPC

08 Broncos #12 1,862 yards, #2T 4.8 YPC (even with every rb being injured for several games)

07 Skins #12 1,871 yards, #22T 3.8 YPC

08 Skins #8 2,095 yards, #7 4.4 YPC

To summarize Cutler

Cutler has been in the same system his entire career, better receivers, a more pass friendly offense, better overall protection,and still has the same number of losses (JC has 1 fewer start) 17-20 to 16-20

His Red Zone efficiency is worse than Campbell's, he faced easier competition, plays in the AFC West. His int ratio is far worse than Campbell's (despite that added advantages.. weaker opponent defenses, better OL, WR) by a lot

[Thinking Skins]

dag, bubba. I just love to see stats presented so beautifully.

[jtyler42]

Thanks for the work Bubba...It was greatly appreciated...I AM pro Campbell, and these stats lend credence to me as far as what I see on the field...

Jay Cutler is a good QB no doubt, but he is no savior, and as with Campbell he won't light it up here until the talent around him is upgraded...So why do it?

[Hunter_R]

Jay Cutler is a good QB no doubt, but he is no savior, and as with Campbell he won't light it up here until the talent around him is upgraded...So why do it?

Do you know why Cutler's stock rose so quickly when he was drafted? Think about where he played. One of his teammates mentioned something about it. If Cutler can take future doctors and lawyers and make them compete with LSU or whatnot, then he's something special.

[thedevilhimself]

That was some work Bubba .. you know the McD's and followers will totally overlook your work but hey they never let facts get in the way of a good argument .

There is one thing though I am not sure you have Campbells record right in 06 . I thought his first start was against the Bucs and we were 3-6 at that point, and we finished 5-11 .

Nov 19 at Tampa Bay - L (17-20)

Nov 26 Carolina - W (17-13)

Dec 3 Atlanta - L (14-24)

Dec 10 Philadelphia - L (19-21)

Dec 17 at New Orleans - W (16-10)

Dec 24 at St. Louis - L (31-37 OT)

Dec 30 N.Y. Giants - L (28-34)

[thedevilhimself]

Also I really have to debate McD5's comment that we won games because of our defense . Our defense was statistically ranked 4th in yards allowed, 6th in points per game 7th against the pass 8th against the run 20th in terms of interceptions 26th in forced fumbles and 27th in sacks and dead last in terms of scoring and they returned no interceptions for TDs .

Looking at those numbers our defense was hardly top 10. It okay against the run, but couldn't get pressure and couldn't create turnovers couldn't score . All things you associate with a dominant D . That left our offense with the entire length of the field to drive on each outing .

Couple that to our special teams was one of the worst in the league . The fact that our D gave up so many yards has to be attributed to the fact many teams faced short fields to play with .

Case in point :

Our defense last year against the 49ers flat out sucked . Campbell was the reason we were close .

I remember one play where Campbell got his 6 yards behind the LOS and then scrambled for a first down .... I then also remember 49er FB and RB running wild on our D and out D letting the 9ers march the length of the field with less than a minute n the game to kick the winning FG .

Case in Point 2006 : Tampa Bay . Their offense just flat out ran over us . It was embarrassing to watch yet we lost by 3 .

Case in point Dallas 2007: The secondary gave up 4 long TD passes to TO . We lost by less than a TD .

[SoCalSkins]

If you're going to compare

1. at least get your figures correct

2. don't Cherry pick stats that only backs your side, and leave out important details that can change the actual perception of each stat

Funny how you contradict your own advice and continue to post false numbers even after you have been called on it repeatedly.

Campbell has started 36 games

06 the Skins went 5-11 they were 3-8 when he made his first start

Incorrect. JC started his 1st game against Tampa in 2006. The Skins were 3-6 before that game. He led the skins to a 2-5 record that year.

07 the Skins went 6-7 in his 13 starts, before being injured

Wrong again. They were 5-7 before he was injured. The 6th win came after he was injured. If you want to abide by your own advice: "don't Cherry pick stats that only backs your side, and leave out important details that can change the actual perception of each stat"

You can't give JC credit for the win against Chicago because he played less than a half of football and it was a 0-0 game when he left.

Campbell 17-19 as a starter .472%

Wrong yet again. He is 15-20 in games he has started and played more than a half. Even if your deluded counting gives him the Bears game, he is still 16-20.

Look at your breakdown. You are saying the Skins were 3-8 in 2006. Even if that were the case (skins were never 3-8 that year, they won the 4th game before the 8th loss), that would mean JC went 2-3 to get to 5-11. 2 + 3= 5. 2006- 5 games

2007- You claim 6-7 (really is 5-7) but for the sake of argument lets pretend your number is viable. 6 + 7 = 13.

2008- 8-8. 8 + 8 = 16.

5 + 13 +16 = 34

How do you then associate him with a record of 17-19. 17 + 19 = 36. 36 is two more than 34.

Maybe you should stick to subjective boosting of JC instead of using large numbers that might be too difficult for you to process.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Funny how you contradict your own advice and continue to post false numbers even after you have been called on it repeatedly.

Incorrect. JC started his 1st game against Tampa in 2006. The Skins were 3-6 before that game. He led the skins to a 2-5 record that year.

Wrong again. They were 5-7 before he was injured. The 6th win came after he was injured. If you want to abide by your own advice: "don't Cherry pick stats that only backs your side, and leave out important details that can change the actual perception of each stat"

You can't give JC credit for the win against Chicago because he played less than a half of football and it was a 0-0 game when he left.

Wrong yet again. He is 15-20 in games he has started and played more than a half. Even if your deluded counting gives him the Bears game, he is still 16-20.

Look at your breakdown. You are saying the Skins were 3-8 in 2006. Even if that were the case (skins were never 3-8 that year, they won the 4th game before the 8th loss), that would mean JC went 2-3 to get to 5-11. 2 + 3= 5. 2006- 5 games

2007- You claim 6-7 (really is 5-7) but for the sake of argument lets pretend your number is viable. 6 + 7 = 13.

2008- 8-8. 8 + 8 = 16.

5 + 13 +16 = 34

How do you then associate him with a record of 17-19. 17 + 19 = 36. 36 is two more than 34.

Maybe you should stick to subjective boosting of JC instead of using large numbers that might be too difficult for you to process.

The records bubba posted may not have been as accurate as he thought, but the real meat of his post was damn impressive. Having Campbell at 15-20 instead of at 17-19 does absolutely zero to diminish the far more thorough context in which he presents the superficial analysis of the stats between Campbell and Cutler. You didn't have much to say about that aspect of his post, though...

You're concentrating on the wrong thing, imo...

[Veretax]

If you're going to compare

....

To summarize Cutler

Cutler has been in the same system his entire career, better receivers, a more pass friendly offense, better overall protection,and still has a slightly worse loss record, same number of wins (JC 1 fewer start) 17-20 to 17-19

His Red Zone efficiency is worse than Campbell's, he faced easier competition, plays in the AFC West. His Int ratio is far worse than Campbell's (despite that added advantages.. weaker opponent defenses, better OL, WR) by a lot

Thanks for the great break down of stats bubba. I support Jason if he is here come season start, but if the FO wants Cutler, as a Skin fan I'll support whatever move they make too. Even if I feel we are giving up the house to denver again.

[bubba9497]

The records bubba posted may not have been as accurate as he thought, but the real meat of his post was damn impressive. Having Campbell at 15-20 instead of at 17-19 does absolutely zero to diminish the far more thorough context in which he presents the superficial analysis of the stats between Campbell and Cutler. You didn't have much to say about that aspect of his post, though...

You're concentrating on the wrong thing, imo...

The 3-8 in 06 was a just a typo

however Campbell has started 36 per the NFL, and though SoCal doesn't want to count the bears game, it is still officially counted as a win he started. the same for Cutler in games he didn't finish, as it is for every QB's record

Damn I was wrong on the overall record 16-20, I don't know how I didn't catch that before... I apologize for being wrong on the win loss record, but the other stats are c&p from NFL.com and are accurate.

[dockeryfan]

bubba is right. Cutler has benefited from being in the same system, with the same head coach, with a scheme that is more pass happy, and more productive receivers.

Campbell has improved, and has become a pretty efficient QB.

But...

His reads are still too slow. He doesn't give his receivers a chance to make a play. His release isn't as good as Cutler's.

His arm is strong, but not as strong as Cutler's.

So if I put them side by side, nothing else involved, I'll take Cutler. 100% of the time, and I'm actually a Campbell supporter.

I think we have to stay with Campbell right now. The picks involved for Cutler would be way too much, he's kind of a primadonna prick, so he'll screw up the chemistry, and he'll have to learn Zorn's system anyway. So I think we stay with Campbell. But if this were a schoolyard pickup game, Cutler gets my pick.

[bubba9497]

bubba is right. Cutler has benefited from being in the same system, with the same head coach, with a scheme that is more pass happy, and more productive receivers.

Campbell has improved, and has become a pretty efficient QB.

But...

His reads are still too slow. He doesn't give his receivers a chance to make a play. His release isn't as good as Cutler's.

His arm is strong, but not as strong as Cutler's.

His reads are not too slow, for the life of me I still haven't found anything to back up that claim...

however I have read numerous times from players, coaches, scouting reports just the opposite, talking about how he goes quickly through his progressions, fid the right read.... the fact he led the NFL in the lowest int ratio confirms that.

He was exactly the same as Cutler in comp% 62.3%, despite the handicap

of him and the wr all learning a new system.... and the most complaints I read from Zorn were the receivers were the ones not running precise routes, JC was delivering the ball where it was suppose to be more times than not, but the wr were off the mark many times, which causes problem in a timing based pass attack

[Big Mac Patty Wack]

I was talking to G.A.C.O.L.B. about it last night. If Snyder really covets this guy, then he'll get him, no matter what it takes.

Remember the offer he made for Ocho Cinco? 2 first rounders? The Bengals are absolutely retarded for not jumping on that.

Thank God that never happened. Yeah, Danny gets what he wants. Two first rounders is too high though. I'd rather get Sanchez.

[dockeryfan]

His reads are not too slow, for the life of me I still haven't found anything to back up that claim...

Well, I have never found anything to back up that claim either, it's just my personal opinion. When I watched games last year, I would see receivers open a split second before the delivery was made, and the ball would arrive at the time the receiver was covered. Now was that the receiver running the wrong route? I suppose that's possible.

There were also times that Campbell would throw to an open receiver, but it was the wrong receiver. If it's 3-8, and he completes it to a receiver for 5 yards and is immediately tackled, that's on Campbell. He needs to recognize when he is being baited like that. His read in that situation is incorrect.

I like Campbell, but there were times I thought his field vision was poor. Running for your life will do that, so a better Oline solves a lot of this.

[pointyfootball]

As an "unbiased" observer, although admittedly I haven't watched Cutler as much as Campbell, I'd take Cutler in a heartbeat over Campbell. But, if you're having to throw in a few high picks, I'm not sure that's worth it.

[dockeryfan]

As an "unbiased" observer, although admittedly I haven't watched Cutler as much as Campbell, I'd take Cutler in a heartbeat over Campbell. But, if you're having to throw in a few high picks, I'm not sure that's worth it.

I feel the exact same way.

[Streater101]

bubba is right. Cutler has benefited from being in the same system, with the same head coach, with a scheme that is more pass happy, and more productive receivers.

Campbell has improved, and has become a pretty efficient QB.

But...

His reads are still too slow. He doesn't give his receivers a chance to make a play. His release isn't as good as Cutler's.

His arm is strong, but not as strong as Cutler's.

So if I put them side by side, nothing else involved, I'll take Cutler. 100% of the time, and I'm actually a Campbell supporter.

I think we have to stay with Campbell right now. The picks involved for Cutler would be way too much, he's kind of a primadonna prick, so he'll screw up the chemistry, and he'll have to learn Zorn's system anyway. So I think we stay with Campbell. But if this were a schoolyard pickup game, Cutler gets my pick.

I agree 110%. One thing that nagged me consistently, was the week leading up to the Super Bowl matchup between the Steelers and Cards, and they were spotlighting Woodley, and how their blitz is effective vs. the passing game. Now, the Steelers if I'm not mistaken (I don't feel like googling stats) were ranked 2 or 3 behind the G-Men or Boys in sacks, so I imagine they had plenty of film to use, but for some reason they chose to only use the film from our own Monday Night game against them.

Every highlight they showed, there was CLEARLY an open receiver that Campbell failed to find. He completes those passes, and Pitt backs off a bit and those highlights NEVER happen. Now, I give more credit to Dick Lebeau and the Pitt defense than I do criticism towards Zorn, the line, and Campbell, after after all, they did fool Kurt Warner(at least once) - but those are obvious examples where our QB, Jason Campbell could have altered the outcome of a play by making a better read. A trend I see here on ES is that either JC is a bum, or our line is trash, or our WR are rubbish. Its not that cut and dry, and I imagine that if we were to dissect every negative play, play by play, the majority of them would be assigned to #17.

Much like the guy I'm quoting however, I am a Campbell supporter - BUT, I'm not blind to his faults. He needs to improve for our offense to be more competent, and I reiterate my current statement about Cutler being superior regardless of what the stats look like, although he would still come out on top if we we're to judge them strictly by the numbers.

If Cutler gave us no less than the production he had in Denver last year, we would have been in a re-match with Arizona for the NFC championship. I'm certain of that.

[phishisthegreatstuff]

If he does get traded I hope we get him at the right price, but I don't think Denver will move him.

[pjfootballer]

Campbell may go through his reads quickly, but his decision making is slow. He hesitates as to where he wants to go with the ball and that's why we don't move the ball. Not that he's slow, or has a slow delivery, but he is very indecisive.