Prison System...Too Punitive?

[buenosdiaz]

I came across this at work today and wanted to see where most of us stood on the # of prisoners in America and also the racial disproportionality that exists within the system

Before anybody says my thread title is wrong:blahblah::blahblah:

i'm not really trying to discuss the article that is more about the structural issues that exist that are the cause of this disproportionality and mass imprisonment and the duty we have to change this and understand the issue rather than see it as something we are completely unattached to

instead i want to talk about some of the statistics that are true about the prison system in America, and if you all think it is flawed or if not how is it not?

Here, as in other areas of social policy, the United States is a stark international outlier, sitting at the most rightward end of the political spectrum: We imprison at a far higher rate than the other industrial democracies — higher, indeed, than either Russia or China, and vastly higher than any of the countries of Western Europe. According to the International Centre for Prison Studies in London, there were in 2005 some 9 million prisoners in the world; more than 2 million were being held in the United States. With approximately one twentieth of the world’s population, America had nearly one fourth of the world’s inmates. At more than 700 per 100,000 residents, the U.S. incarceration rate was far greater than our nearest competitors (the Bahamas, Belarus, and Russia, which each have a rate of about 500 per 100,000.) Other industrial societies, some of them with big crime problems of their own, were less punitive than we by an order of magnitude: the United States incarcerated at 6.2 times the rate of Canada, 7.8 times the rate of France, and 12.3 times the rate of Japan.

The extent of racial disparity in imprisonment rates exceeds that to be found in any other arena of American social life: at eight to one, the black to white ratio of male incarceration rates dwarfs the two to one ratio of unemployment rates, the three to one non-marital child bearing ratio, the two to one ratio of infant mortality rates and the one to five ratio of net worth. More black male high school dropouts are in prison than belong to unions or are enrolled in any state or federal social welfare programs. The brute fact of the matter is that the primary contact between black American young adult men and their government is via the police and the penal apparatus. Coercion is the most salient feature of their encounters with the state. According to estimates compiled by sociologist Bruce Western, nearly 60% of black male dropouts born between 1965 and 1969 had spent at least one year in prison before reaching the age of 35.

Here is the link if you are interested in the entire article

http://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/03/11/glenn-loury/a-nation-of-jailers/

[renaissance]

Thread title sucks.

And so does our prison system. I don't even have any idea at this point what the purpose of our prison system is. Is it to rehabilitate or simply to house criminals. We are certainly covering the latter of those two...I have serious doubts about the former, which would explain why we have not only so many prisoners, but so many returning prisoners.

I would also be curious to know how many prisoners actually have serious mental and/or emotional issues such that they shouldn't be in prison, but in a facility where they can actually receive proper treatment.

[buenosdiaz]

I would also be curious to know how many prisoners actually have serious mental and/or emotional issues such that they shouldn't be in prison, but in a facility where they can actually receive proper treatment.

yeah...the guy that wrote the article kind of talks about this and while its difficult to have moral relativity in dealing with offenders we have to understand that these laws were never intended to take into account some of the living conditions and emotional traumas that a lot of people in prison have lived through and have

until we stop and look at exactly what is going on these huge #'s of inmates are going to continue to grow

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

In other countries they probably kill them instead of putting them in prison....Saudi Arabia comes to mind.

[Forehead]

I'm not talking about the petty larceny or the marajuana folks...but as far as murders and rapists go...a bullet is a lot less of a burden to the taxpayers than 30 years in the Big House.

[ljs]

there is a lot of reasons, imo, that our prison system is so full.

I attribute it to these factors, not in any particular order of importance

~Our values and morals in the US decline every day. I look at gangs as a prime example. Add lack of parenting, on so many levels and the sad truth is, we as a society are creating this disaster.

~in relation to the morals and values declining in our society, add how many people keep having a **** ton of kids, with no way to pay for them. Kids out of wedlock and dead beat dads. OR men who Beat their women, and then you have some young boy growing up thinking that is ok.

~drug abuse. I'm all for legalizing pot, as it would take the crime out of it, create tax dollars we desperetely need and I honestly don't see a big deal with it. However, crack, cocaine, heroin...those drugs are ruining society at a rapid pace.

~Racial discrimination. I can honestly say I never experienced this when I worked in law enforcement, but we all know it happens. While I believe that most all criminals in prison are guilty, we all know some are not. Some get tougher sentences because of race. HOWEVER- I won't use that as a total excuse, if you commit a crime, regardless of race, then you deserve to go to jail.

Mental health- this is an obvious problem and I believe it's related to drug use in many circumstances. 'nough said

In the end, I just don't believe we have enough resources to rehabilitate, therefore a prison system (adult and juvenile) are merely housing them and making better crmiinals when they get out.

as a rookie cop I was so amazed how the other officers knew everyone! I was nervous that I wouldn't be able to memorize all these criminals. Well, I quickly learned, that when you arrest the same ****ing people over and over and over again, you tend to remember who they are. 5 years later, and I still have many names/faces I remember, as well as birthdays/addresses. it's crazy how the revolving door really works (at least in my state)

[GibbsFactor]

Three words.

War on Drugs.

[Ford]

I'm not talking about the petty larceny or the marajuana folks...but as far as murders and rapists go...a bullet is a lot less of a burden to the taxpayers than 30 years in the Big House.

Not true.

AN EYE for an eye, or at any rate a death for a death, is the type of justice that most states still embrace. Only 14 of the 50 states have banned capital punishment. But that may change with the recession. As state governments confront huge budget deficits, eight more states have proposed an unusual measure to cut costs: eliminate the death penalty.

The states considering abolition, including Colorado, Kansas, New Mexico and New Hampshire, have shifted the debate about capital punishment, at least in part, from morality to cost. Studies show that administering the death penalty is even more expensive than keeping someone in prison for life. The intensive jury selection, trials and appeals required in capital cases can take over a decade and run up a huge tab for the state. Death row, where prisoners facing execution are kept in separate cells under intense observation, is also immensely costly.

A recent study by the Urban Institute, a think-tank, estimates that the death penalty cost Maryland’s taxpayers $186m between 1978 and 1999. According to the report, a case resulting in a death sentence cost $3m, almost $2m more than when the death penalty was not sought.

http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13279051

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Three words.

War on Drugs.

I dont see why people piss and moan about it...its the law...follow it and you wont have any problems.

[Forehead]

Not true.

http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13279051

Well now you're bringing trials and everything into it. I stand by my assertion that a bullet is cheaper than housing someone for however many years.

In all seriousness, how much does it cost to house 1 prisoner for a year?

[Thiebear]

I think the minimum/medium should all be work release during the day (get a job, keep a job: don't come back).

Then the maximum for those below that repeat and the really bad.

Institute the Colosseum for sport for death row? (one DNS test and then your in).

You can then have day shift and night shift people sharing a cell

[GibbsFactor]

I dont see why people piss and moan about it...its the law...follow it and you wont have any problems.

:laugh:

That's a valid argument. Why doesn't it hold a drop of water?

[BigMike619]

man, bueno makes some horrible thread titles.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

:laugh:

That's a valid argument. Why doesn't it hold a drop of water?

beats me

[buenosdiaz]

man, bueno makes some horrible thread titles.

lol i had one the other day and got **** about citations etc

[gbear]

ljs,

your comment about people knowing all the criminals reminds me of my father in laws story about going white water rafting back in the 70's. He asked, where do I leave my keys and was told "We usually leave them in the ignition." The guide then proceeded to give him how they figure out safety.

If it's a one stop light town, it's pretty safe to just leave the keys. If the car gets taken, they know who took it.

If it's a two stop light town, leave the keys in the dash, under the eat, or under the tire. Make it a little harder. They still know everybody, it just might take them a little while to go see which of the 5 trouble makers is sporting new wheels.

If it has a fast food stop like a McDonalds, take the keys with ya.

It's been a while since that was the case, sadly. Now kids don't even play outside as much for fear of what can happen. After reading Bowling Alone, that scares me. The writer did some stats work and the number one predictor of how much crime existed in a neighberhood was what percentage of people in the neighberhood knew their neighbors. You don't steal from them because they know you, and you know them. It would be stupid, and in addition to upping your chances of being caught, you're hurting people you know.

[DCsportsfan53]

Three words.

War on Drugs.

Bingo. Most of you will probably think I'm crazy but I'm all for strict regulation and legalization of all drugs. I simply believe it's not a criminal issue and that legality would not cause a long term increase in use. What it would do, though, is take the power out of the hands of gangs because legalizing it takes the money out of it for them.

Also, imho, the way we treat drugs allows people to use them as excuses and crutches. I don't buy that drugs cause people to commit crimes and I don't believe they should be a factor in determining the sentinicing or punishment for someone who does commit a crime.

[artmonkforHOF]

Ahhhhh. I think this thread is the first step for many ES'ers to realize that "America: land of the Free" is not so free after all.

You are free to vote for whoever you want for President, as long as they represent one of the 2 political parties. You are only the loss of one party away from being a dictatorship (some would argue you now have a "rotating dictatorship")

And how can a country boast about their freedom when 1 out of every 100 of it's people are in jail? that is a higher rate than ANY nation in the history of the world (not counting slaves), and much higher than those countries that go into a police state.

So your political system is almost a dictatorship and you incarcarate a higher % of people than even the most strict communist regime in the history of the world.

Isn't American democracy great?:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

I doubt it will ever change, you guys have far too many people employed in the "jail" business, from cops to parole officers and bail bondsmen. I think you would see a real economic crisis if you stopped putting kids in jail for a dime bag of weed.

[GoSkins561]

Legalizing all drugs is one of the dumbest arguments ever on ES.

Weed, fine what ever heroin and crack is just ignorant.

[DCsportsfan53]

Isn't American democracy great?:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

I doubt it will ever change, you guys have far too many people employed in the "jail" business, from cops to parole officers and bail bondsmen. I think you would see a real economic crisis if you stopped putting kids in jail for a dime bag of weed.

I'll tell you what, for a "Christian" nation we sure do looooove judging and punishing people, even for victimless crimes.

[DCsportsfan53]

Legalizing all drugs is one of the dumbest arguments ever on ES.

Weed, fine what ever heroin and crack is just ignorant.

Personally, I think that addicts are of their own creation due to their own problems, they aren't created by the drugs. I know too many people who casually use what most would consider hard drugs and don't abuse them. People will find them either way. Bottom line, to me, in the land of the free, it should never, ever be a crime to do something to your own body. Never.

[pjfootballer]

1) Our jails are too easy. Three hots and cot, oh boy!

2) People in this country take their freedoms for granted that they can do whatever the eff they want. This leads us back to #1. No fear of the penal system.

[SnyderShrugged]

If I were somehow elected as President (in a majorly Bizarro world)

I would immediately issue an executive order that releases every convict of a "crime" where no-one was harmed nor attempted harm present.

[ljs]

Ahhhhh. I think this thread is the first step for many ES'ers to realize that "America: land of the Free" is not so free after all.

You are free to vote for whoever you want for President, as long as they represent one of the 2 political parties. You are only the loss of one party away from being a dictatorship (some would argue you now have a "rotating dictatorship")

And how can a country boast about their freedom when 1 out of every 100 of it's people are in jail? that is a higher rate than ANY nation in the history of the world (not counting slaves), and much higher than those countries that go into a police state.

So your political system is almost a dictatorship and you incarcarate a higher % of people than even the most strict communist regime in the history of the world.

Isn't American democracy great?:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

I doubt it will ever change, you guys have far too many people employed in the "jail" business, from cops to parole officers and bail bondsmen. I think you would see a real economic crisis if you stopped putting kids in jail for a dime bag of weed.

First of all, **** Canada.

second, **** Canada.

Third....we DO have the BEST country in the world. We also have the MOST freedom in the world. However, that freedom to "be whoever you want to be and do whatever you want to do" has created a drop in moral value, which leads to crime/drug abuse.

I equate it to a parent who lets their child run wild and free, then wonders why they end up in jail. Everyone needs a little guidance here and there, however wiht that said, I'm glad that America gives ME the opportunity to decide what is best for me. I rather have that option, and deal with the criminal types, than live in a society that takes 70% of my hard earned money and controls every ****ing thing I do.

Glad you love Canada, you can have it.

also, we jail more people than the strictist regimes...because they KILL nearly every criminal. IF the US had the same criminal punishment laws that most Muslim run countries do, then we also wouldn't have many people in jail. But then we also wouldn't have near the freedom we do.

[shk75]

It goes back to the founding of the country by puritans and the strict principles they followed. Plain and simple America has a lot of laws and way too many to even enforce. It is also intertwined with the fact that jails are big business and our system is aimed at stopping those without power from obtaining it. Therfore if you are poor and likely a minority the laws are aimed at targeting you (crack vs. cocaine is an example of this).