jbooma Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by fansince62 jboomba... 1) stress is self induced. take a non-tournament event, put it on TV, hype it as the "Battle of the Sexes" and place a pot of gold at the 18th hole........and there will be stress. moreover, we're talking about a professional who has won over 40 tournaments...are you saying that she is under no stress during LPGA tour events but that the glare of TV has her rattled? she played very well as a golfer. she played pack for a PGA professional. Fan, have you ever played golf? There is a major difference between a tournament and non-tournament. I can tell you have never played in either or maybe just for fun. Do you think she cares about the money in this tournament? She wants to see what level of game she has, and it looks pretty darn good. Is it her fault that the PGA doesn't say anything about gender? She took advantage of a oppurtunity and took it. She was under stress on the LPGA, but nothing like this. She didn't have over 600 reporters asking her questions, she didn't have thousands watching every shot and cheering, this is a big difference. If you actually watched her play you would relize how accurate she is, she missed ONE fairway, all of her balls went straight, etc... This alone is amazing. After the round she even said the pin placement was nothing like she has seen before and still played a great round. Heck she beat Sergio Garcia and he was the #2 in the world last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Y Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Good point. But if that is the case then why is it such a big deal that she's playing. All of the polls and what not about should she be allowed. Apparently I'm not the only one that separates the two into men's and women's tours. Her skill is never the question. She has the highest winning percentage of any golfer in the history of golf. Better than Arnie, Jack, and Tiger. Why is this such a hot button, if it wasn't about men and women? I think it down grades the women's tour with her playing anyway. The greatest female golfer in the world is tied for 76th after day one when she plays with men??? That seems to take even more of an edge off of the women's tour. don't you agree? Alot of people, I'm not one, but alot of people say that they don't watch women's sports because they aren't as good, or gifted as the guys. Isn't not making the cut gonna confirm that? I have to agree with 62. Why is she given credit for just missing putts when Mickelson is ridiculed? Can anyone say DOUBLE STANDARD?? That is what I've been trying to say the whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by fansince62 Jbooma...your last point is correct.....but that doesn't make it right.......which is the point many of us are trying to make......it's more in the way of a rationalization I am confused why you don't think it isn't right? She was given an oppurtunity and took it? Wouldn't everyone here do the same if you were in her shoes. The thing all us needs to realize that one day Women will be playing on the PGA tour, it will happen. Not many I might say but some will. This 13 year old girl is hitting the ball 300 yards is going to play on one of those minor league tours, she will make the PGA tour in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Y Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by jbooma If you actually watched her play you would relize how accurate she is, she missed ONE fairway, all of her balls went straight, etc... This alone is amazing. What is so amazing about it? She's one of the best golfers in the world? Highest winning percentage ever. She's supposed to be able to hit 'em straight. I guarantee you that she wasn't the only one all day to hit every fairway, but I only hear about what she did. Why because she has a vagina it's supposed to be extra special. It's not supposed to be about what's between your legs, it's supposed to be about golf. But with this whole deal it isn't about the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by Steve Y I have to agree with 62. Why is she given credit for just missing putts when Mickelson is ridiculed? Can anyone say DOUBLE STANDARD?? That is what I've been trying to say the whole time. Ok, I see where you are coming from. The difference though is she has said that putting is her weakness. Phil on the other hand is known for his putting so that is why that might be happening. Phil is supposed to make all of them, Annaka knows that is her weakness. Think about it this way, Phill was never under the same pressure that she was yesterday. All of the other golfers even said it was amazing she could even have a good round with all the spotlight and pressure on her. The gallery following her was bigger than any that followed Tiger before. Phil also is ridiculed when his putting costs him majors and tournaments, had she missed her put on the final hole for a title then same would have happened to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by Steve Y I have to agree with 62. Why is she given credit for just missing putts when Mickelson is ridiculed? Can anyone say DOUBLE STANDARD?? That is what I've been trying to say the whole time. The other thing is this is her first time in a PGA event, the greens are different and faster than the LPGA, give her some time before you ridicule for missing puts. Phil has been doing it now for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Well Phil does have bigger t!ts than Annika does, but less of a mustache. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Consigliere Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Navy, I really don't understand what you're talking about. Did I say anywhere that women are the equal of men in sports? I don't recall saying that. I certainly think that the very best women can compete in the very best men's leagues, but they certainly can't top them in any of the major sports, or minor sports when it comes to the best of the very best. Like Holdsclaw trying to hold her own against say a 40 year old Jordan. My point has always been that the leagues were set up because women were generally speaking, not allowed entrance into male sports on its face. I like the fact that women want to play sports too, that women have responded to the exclusionary sporting behavior by creating leagues for women to play in, and I like it when the very best of the women's athletes decides to compete against the very best athletes in the world in a given field. Do I think Annika could top top Tiger, or even the top 30 money winners in the PGA regularly? No. Do I think Holdsclaw or Leslie, or a 24 year old Cheryl Miller could hold their own against the likes of Kobe Bryant, Gary Payton, or an in shape Shawn Kemp circa '95? Nope. Do I think Manon Rheaome (spelling?) could match Hasek, or Roy in terms of goal keeping skills? No. Do I think Abby Wambach, or even Ally Wagner can play w/Ronaldo, or Raul or Figo? No. I've never argued that. I just like women having the opportunity to build leagues, and if they are good enough, have a chance to match themselves against the very best the world has to offer. "Women sports, when compared to men sport with the exception of cheesecake Tennis (Track and field), sucks. Annika would have to break out the steroids and hope that all golf tourneys she attend have the soft greens and no wind." Why? Explain why they suck, and how? This is subjective analysis at it's finest. It's your opinion that it sucks. I can agree on the WNBA, I don't like watching it that much either, but the WUSA on the other hand is pleasure to watch, though it certainly can't give the EPL, La Liga, or Series A a run for it's money. I don't think the women's leagues are generally as enjoyable to watch as the men's, but so what. What about watching the Portland Pirates in the AHL, instead of the Caps? Plenty of people do that. Plenty of people fill the stands to see the Calgary Hitmen play in Juniors Hockey, and plenty fill the stands to see the incredible prospects playing for the Indians Akron Aeroes team in Double A. I can enjoy players playing their best in any kind of league, from kids, to mid level athletes, to the very best, to women's athletes. Sounds like you're just venting to me, I can't even understand what you were responding to in any of my posts, to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy-the-Greek Posted May 23, 2003 Author Share Posted May 23, 2003 What time does she tee off today and is it on TV?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by tommy-the-greek What time does she tee off today and is it on TV?? 2:45 us network If she finishes today around 1 over she will make the cut And for those who think she will ruin the PGA, she has already said this will be her last time on the tour, she just wanted to see where her game was at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy-the-Greek Posted May 23, 2003 Author Share Posted May 23, 2003 Looks like she is going to bogie the 5th to go one over. This hole just might be the one that kills her chance to make the cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 she still has time, this is where she got her first bogey yesterday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 Well Phil does have bigger t!ts than Annika does, but less of a mustache. I have to agree with you there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Jbooma... I've played a lot of golf all over the world...... she's supposed to be the number 1 female player in the world. she has won over 40 tournaments including women's tour Majors equivalents - that is pressure. my point is that this isn't something new. quit making excuses. as for the argument someone made vis putting greens....you have to be kidding right? I salute her courage and recognize the competitive spirit. but that's not what this argument has been about. it has been about gender based discrimination....... the theme, however, has exhausted its entertainment value. drive for show PUTT FOR DOUGH!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 dupe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Great googly-moggly, ya'll ... we still talking about this? I gave my opinion on all this waaaaaaay back on like page 1 and/or 2, and I have yet to see anything posted since that changes my stated take one bit. Truthfully, I think you fine gentlemen have made a HUGE mountain out of this modest molehill. Which is fine, because this is a semi-free country and all, but geeeeeeeez ... I think I'd be a very depressed individual if I saw the crumbling of Western society behind every tree. Tell you what I DO think, though ... I think, right now, that there are a few million young 9, 10, 11, 12 year-old young lady golfers around the world -- not to mention 13 year-old Ms. Lee from Hawaii -- who are watching Ms. Sorenstam not embarrass herself out there, and thinking to themselves, hmmmmm .... And you know what? Some of them will grow up with game, and with bodies like Serena ... and they won't be afraid to tee it up in Q School. The genie's out. Better drink up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I have a follow up question on the Sorenstam story. Yesterday, she finishes 76th and she's all over the news. Every front page of every sport site is openly cheering her on. She's everywhere. She still wasn't very good, but, hey, she didn't spike herself so there was absolute fawning. Today, she's spiking herself. She's clearly out of her league and is dropping like a Nike Tour player. But she's not the lead story today. Why? Why is her failure not as big a story as her mediocrity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 OM...tee hee hee....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B&G Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 There has been no gender based discrimination here even though those who thump their chests and cry foul would have you believe so. While it is true that the LPGA has rules prohibiting anyone not born a woman from participating in their events, those rules were not made for discriminatory purposes. They were made to make the playing surface level. Men ARE stronger than women and so most would have an unfair advantage if they were allowed to play in a ladies tour event. There is no such unfair advantage, generally speaking, for a woman playing in a PGA tour event and that's why their rules don't prohibit female participation. As Sorenstram said today: "It was a great week but I've got to go back to my tour, where I belong," she said. "I'm glad I did it, but this is way over my head." The cheering crowds at Colonial told the real story about how fair-minded people view Sorenstram's participation in this tournament. I'm sure Sorenstram is disapointed she didn't make the cut but throughout her play at Colonial, she was a class act. I wish I could say the same for some of the ungracious PGA Tour players who showed their backsides over this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eparadox Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Who cares if a woman plays on the PGA tour, I mean really, it's supposed to be the best of the best, and should be gender blind...but you still have to earn your tour card, and that requires years of dedication and practice. Annika didn't earn her way onto the tour, she got a sponsor's exemption because of publicity, and profit. If she were able to earn her tour card along with the other 10's of thousands that try(and fail), then it would be a real accomplishment. I mean, how would you guys feel if your lifelong dream was to play on the tour, and you always come up short, but here's Annika, who has proven nothing on the tour, being allowed and encouraged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 B&G...nice try......because rules weren't made with discriminatory intent......doesn't mean that they are not discriminatory........leveling the playing field is the sort of outcomes based "justification" I was taking aim at earlier. she was a class act........but that doesn't change anything. we now live in a society in which equal opportunity is selectively applied. the grounds for this, as presented above, is that discrimination is acceptable when necessary to level the playing field (as it were). we must not permit "unfair advantages".....what a great concept! how egaltarian!.....of course, you get to define what fair is on a case specific basis......and so we are back to outcomes..........not principles...fine by me!!!! what is fair for the goose is fair for the gander!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 btw........I haven't heard any complements directed toward the tour rookies paired with Annika thurs/fri who treated her as a fellow "traveler" rather than a promo event...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B&G Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 I would feel the need to work harder and elevate my game. Sorenstram wouldn't enter into the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B&G Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 FS62, obviously I don't agree with your point of view but it is one that a few other people subscribe to. Some of them are men of principle (like you) who are convinced there is truly gender based dicrimination here and others are simply mean-spirited, male chauvinist bigots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 B&G, that type of comment on your part is the type that shows the other side is winning a conversation. What people on the left often revert to is, "Well, then you're a racist/bigot," in order to better forward their point if someone else has one that doesn't jibe with their make believe world in determining what is right or wrong. Again, the point remains the same and only one person attempted to answer the charge in this thread. The rest of you left it alone knowing what the answers truely make you. Do you believe in race-based segregation in athletics or education? Yes or no? If no, then you can't believe in the same based on gender. But, if yes, at least you are consiste. You are a racist on one hand and the true bigot on the other. You believe in gender and racial inequality. You believe that the sexes and races should be treated differently. Kept apart. And this is the argument's side you stand on. Either you believe there should be equality. Or you don't. Pick one. And the one you've picked could be improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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