OT- Should Annika Sorenstam be allowed to play on the PGA tour?

[Tommy-the-Greek]

I didn't think when I started this thread it would have had so many posts. I didn't think there would be right or wrong answers, just opinions not statements of fact.

I believe that this was one big gimmick. Was this experiment good for golf? The colonial never had so many people interested in it. For the last week this has been a bigger story then the NBA and the NHL playoffs IMHO. Who would have ever thought that a non major golf tournament would have recieved so much attention.

No one really thought she had a chance to make the cut a week ago. Going into the 5th hole yesterday she did have a real shot of making the cut. This was a nice story and will soon fade away, or will it?

Will the PGA invite the best woman golfer to one tournament every year from now on? If they did would this be a good thing for golf in America?

[jbooma]

Originally posted by Art

Again, the point remains the same and only one person attempted to answer the charge in this thread. The rest of you left it alone knowing what the answers truely make you. Do you believe in race-based segregation in athletics or education? Yes or no? If no, then you can't believe in the same based on gender. But, if yes, at least you are consiste. You are a racist on one hand and the true bigot on the other. You believe in gender and racial inequality. You believe that the sexes and races should be treated differently. Kept apart.

Art, race and gender are issues are completely different. One involves color of your skin, the other involves your gender. These are no way in the same category.

First off like I said before I don't understand why we call each other white or black to begin with? You don't hear other people from other countries calling us that do you? They say we are americans not a color, the same we say about them. You don't call Japanese people dark whiter yellowish people do you? No you call them Japanese, so we can't we call all fellow americans, americans?

Certain athletics between male's and females's are different and they can not play together. Take for example basketball, the WNBA uses smaller balls then the NBA. Women can't play football because of the nature of the beast that is football. Did you complain when a women played goalie in hockey?? Tennis is another sport where I would love to see Venus play maybe the 100th ranked man in the world.

Going into his whole episode Annika didn't want to say if she could be the BEST in the PGA she just wanted to see if she could play in the PGA, she proved she could be sucessful. She has already said she wouldn't do this again, so there goes the circus a lot of people called it. However she did beat some guys, and had there not been all the distractions there who knows how goos she could have been.

The one thing that upsets me is all these guys crying because she didn't EARN her way on the tour. Who pays the money for all of these guys, the sponsers right. So when the best players don't come to an event it is thier job to make it intersting. That is what they did. I don't want to see a local gold pro just be invited to get his ass kicked, at least with Annika she played and for a while did very well.

So to answer your question, I believe if given a sport and the women and men use the same equipment then why not see who is better? I know some sports that isn't possible and that is fine. If you had a little girl would be against her trying to prove herself to the kids at the school, I don't think so. I believe may the best ahtlete compete and win if it is white, black, male, female, or whatever given the fact they both have the same rules and chances.

[The Consigliere]

"The rest of you left it alone knowing what the answers truely make you. Do you believe in race-based segregation in athletics or education? Yes or no? If no, then you can't believe in the same based on gender. But, if yes, at least you are consiste. You are a racist on one hand and the true bigot on the other. You believe in gender and racial inequality. You believe that the sexes and races should be treated differently. Kept apart.

And this is the argument's side you stand on. Either you believe there should be equality. Or you don't. Pick one. And the one you've picked could be improved."

I like to read your stuff because your arguments tend to be interesting, well though out, and unique, but it does bother me to see what I believe is a completely closed mind on the issue. From what I've seen you don't seem to believe there's any validity to my argument that women's sports leagues were created because women were locked out of men's sports. In my view, you seem to be viewing the world in some perfect case scenario that never existed, where Babe Diedricksen was the only woman until now that Golfed in the PGA for an event because she was the only one to hack it. The fact that the PGA and nearly every other sport throughout the majority of the 20th century exlcluded minorities and women on their face, w/zero thought to actual ability is an argument you don't seem to buy when it comes to women. I have no idea how you could possibly believe this.

This is why I had no issue w/blacks creating the negro leagues, and women creating the LPGA, WUSA, and WNBA and other such leagues. You see an equivalence between sexism on it's face, and having women set up separate leagues (segregation). If it's wrong to exlclude blacks and have whites only baseball, and blacks only baseball, than how can it be right to have women's only golf, and women's only soccer. I see it as a situation in which women created these leagues because the men's leagues already locked women out w/few exceptions. There was never equality of opportunity (not outcome, just opportunity) for women when it came to trying to join men's leagues, and so separate leagues were created that would welcome women to play sports. When women decided to create women's leagues, as a result of this problem, I couldn't possibly have a problem with it. How could I? Why would I ever try to tell women it's wrong for them to create women's only leagues? Because in some perfect universe that doesn't exist, it would be unfair, and sexist? We don't live in that world. We live in a world that is much better, and less sexist, and racist than in the past (at least over here), but is still quite rigorous when it comes to de facto segregation particularly in sports. Women started all girls teams, and later all women's teams so they'd get a shot to play, how could that possibly be wrong? Blaming the victim for their response to exlusionary policies of others seems outrageous to me.

And additionally while I find sexism and racism to have similar roots, I do not find an equivalence between continuing to have womens only leagues, and say Negro leagues, after allowances for integration might be made. There is little if any technical difference between blacks and other ethnicities/races besides superficial qualities like melanin content. There are quite a few differences between men and women, physiologically, biologically and chemically not to mention in the way they are raised, so it isn't surprising, nor unjusitifiable that there might be separate leagues for women, when and if sexist policies (both those created by men, and by women) are done away with. But no matter what happens, w/few exceptions the men's leagues will always be the very best there is to offer, and so if a women or woman come around who'd like to square off against the very best, wish to, I see no problem with it.

We'll agree to disagree, Art. Simple as that. It's not the first time common ground can't and won't be reached in a debate.

[Art]

Consig,

I think you took an interesting tactic in this debate. You argued, that like blacks, women were shut out of male sports. You and I disagree as to this point. Blacks WERE shut out. Women were just not good enough and remain not good enough. But, as I addressed earlier, assuming it's true women were locked out of male sports like blacks were, then the formation of women's leagues should have highlighted there ability and broken down the barriers in a similar way to how black athletes quickly broke down the barriers with their skill.

That didn't happen. You haven't said women are actually as good as men, so, that, to me, means you don't fully believe they've been locked out of participation in male sports for any reason other than they aren't good. That's the position most of the public would take and no matter what position you do take, the question is the same.

Those of you who support separate leagues for women would NEVER do so for blacks. That makes your position, under any circumstances, dishonest intellectually. That said, I have repeatedly indicated I have no problem with professional leagues catering to gender or race all they want. If there's an audience for it, then great. Let them make money and have fun.

My MAIN beef is at the lower levels where my tax money mandates gender inequality for the very reason that not a single woman is locked out from participating at the highest levels of their sport but every many is locked out from the additional opportunities women have in athletics.

My problem is Title IX and high school and college sports. On a professional level, I'd have no problem if they created a white man's only basketball league. That's be fine by me, though, of questionable legality due to relying upon public commerce they are bound by public employment rules.

One could argue that the LPGA is illegal based on employment laws that don't allow gender or race or religious discrimination in employment. It could be argued that if the PGA tried to add gender rules, they could be overturned in the courts. But, these are different issues and not as crucial. I find professional sports that can sustain themselves through interest to be acceptable no matter what they decide.

So, to be clear, my main point is that anyone who thinks is OK to have women's college or high school sports mandated by the law as they are at present needs to ask themselves if they think the same thing could or would or should be allowed by race. The same people would have to ask themselves if separate but equal educational opportunities for women and men are acceptable.

That NOT a single one of you would agree that that is acceptable simply sheds any position on women's sports in the manner I'm couching my concern in the proper light of hypocrisy that it is. Otherwise I'm not sure you and I are disagreeing all that much .