You know why I hate Democrats?

[JimboDaMan]

Please, stop with the "will of the people", you're breaking my heart.

I'm not particularly proud of the Democrats for this action. Nor am I proud of the Republicans for trying to enlist the state goons to help them beat the Dems, but that doesn't make me any prouder of the Dems.

But this is politics as usual, and its rarely something to be proud of. There can't be an awake and aware person who truly thinks "moral equivalence" is the exclusive province of one side of the aisle.

The Republicans are looking to collect their spoils, as might be expected and as the Democrats have done in the past (moral equivalence alert!). But I can hardly get real overheated when the Democrats do everything in their limited power to prevent it.

[Kilmer17]

What we end up with is a govt decided entirely by the courts.

It happened in 2000 when the Dems tried to circumvent the law.

It will end up happening with the Judicial nominations

It will happen with every redistricting plan going forward.

Next up? Every bill that they dont support. Im suprised they havent tried this tactic with the budget.

[nfchamp1]

What we end up with is a govt decided entirely by the courts..

:laugh:

Did a Republican actually write that? Don't let George W hear you wrote that.

Whose the crybaby?

I see your only issue is with being referred to as a cry baby. Sorry about that. I withdraw the reference to meglomanic cry baby. At least you didn't challenge the meglomaniac part.

[JimboDaMan]

Originally posted by Kilmer17

What we end up with is a govt decided entirely by the courts.

It happened in 2000 when the Dems tried to circumvent the law.

It will end up happening with the Judicial nominations

It will happen with every redistricting plan going forward.

Next up? Every bill that they dont support. Im suprised they havent tried this tactic with the budget.

Who tried to circumvent the law?

You must be referring to the Republican machinery in Seminole and Martin counties, which allowed the local Republican parties to tamper with the absentee ballot process in heavily Republican districts and affect thousands of ballots in violation of Florida law.

Seriously, Kil, both sides played as fast and loose as they possibly could, and your guys came out on top. Give it a rest already.

[Kilmer17]

I hope the LoserLibby's keep harping on 00. It makes Bush look better every time. The laws that were trying to be circumvented were by Al Gore and his groupies. Count some votes, change others, ignore the laws and then ***** when the Supreme Court rules 7-2 that you were wrong.

The bait has been laid, which of you Dem Sheep will come back with it was 5-4 SCOTUS decision?

Im fine with giving it a rest Jimbo, it's the left that keeps whining about the 00 election.

Back to initial topic. Do you not see the problem with forcing the courts to decide everything in the country? Speration of powers exists for a reason.

[AJWatson3]

i dont think there are any dems in this topic, just guys tired of hearing that everything the right does is just, moral, and the will of the people... like having a president who was elected by a minority-- harp, harp.

[Kilmer17]

It IS the will of the people when they elect the representatives.

dont jump to a conclusion that arguing this point equates to saying that everything the right does is moral or just. It merely means that in this instance what the Dems are doing is NOT.

[Art]

TEG,

I realize that over the years you've not been treated well in conversations with me. You probably feel you lack information, and that's ok, because you do. You probably feel you don't have a good counter, and that's ok, because you don't. You probably like when you think someone else is smarter than you is going against me because, probably, they are, but, they probably aren't winning.

What you probably don't need to do is call me out in a thread like this as if the history of how badly you've been beaten in conversations with me is unclear . I've even tried to make nice with you of late siding with you in football threads. Alas, seems your bottom is still too red and your pride still too bruised to allow you to not obsess over past indignities.

Do, though, feel free to point to the threads I've frequently been bested so I can go back and check the record .

Also, let me know how come you boys on the left continually find a way to defend your boys on the left even when they are clearly in the wrong. They are filibustering two judicial nominations on a national level. When they were in charge, 22 of 30 nominations weren't even put forward. Yet, you guys defend this because 26 Clinton nominations, among 377 approvals over 8 years, with SIX under Republican control, were not put through.

Here, you guys defend the Dems because you don't like political redistricting. That's great. But, where are you when this has been done time and again in the past? You're not making that statement because the right usually lets the political process take its course. The right generally doesn't resort to fleeing the state to have its way. The reason this issue never revealed your uniform disapproval in the past is you were disapproving of it when the two sides were actually working through the issue in the normal political process.

Now you have Democrats who've essentially fled the state to prevent a law from being debated and voted upon by the majority, which is the process. And you're defending it because you don't like gerrymandering. I understand that. I don't know that this is that, but perhaps it is. What I haven't heard you say yet though is you don't like when your representatives FLEE THE EFFING state.

I understand you are a bit of a crybaby. But, sheesh man, can't you even get yourself to get to a point where you can condemn what the Dems are doing too?

[The Evil Genius]

Art,

Please remove your head from you ass. Read what I have wrote on this topic.

I said the DEMS were in the wrong for leaving the state. What else do you want me to say?

I have also gone on record and stated that it didnt matter who was doing it - this type of cracking and packing in wrong.

And don't fool yourself into thinking that you are better than me. You aren't. Just because you are a failed two bit hack that can sometimes string multiple coherent thoughts together - doesnt mean squat with me.

Your bullying doesnt work here boy.

[AJWatson3]

if i had voted for any of these guys and i felt what the repubs were doing was wrong i would appreciate them fleeing the state and refusing to allow a vote on the issue.

art, i was waiting your entrance into this topic ever since i saw TEG write about besting you in debate... a very rare occurance i have yet to see.

[JimboDaMan]

To quote Dennis Miller on MNF:

"More importantly, can we say 'ass' here?"

(to which Al Michaels replied, "NO!") :laugh:

[Art]

TEG,

You have three posts in this thread. Not one word in those three posts indicates you find anything at all disturbing with the actions by the Dems. You repeatedly devote much time to the ills of Gerrymandering, but you devote not a word to the actions by the Dems. I have no doubt you had a throwaway line in another thread about this that you didn't like it, but even in that, I'm willing to say you're disapproval wasn't unconditional. It was always conditioned that what the Republicans are doing is wrong, and you think MORE wrong because you devote more time to it.

So, please show the single line or quote in this thread that indicates you are against what the Dems are doing here. Perhaps I just missed it and I would apologize in that case. If, however, that doesn't exist, YOU will say, "Oops, good point Art." That's how it'll work.

And, for the record, my bullying here does work great, TEG, because it's been months since I've had to engage you and you're still fuming over how badly you were beaten. Clearly, the bullying does bring about just the type of response I'm angling for. It largely kept you quiet, and though you got angry at me, at least you weren't making such a regular fool of yourself, so, in the end, the method was effective .

[Art]

A.J.

I wouldn't even have been in this thread save the pent up frustration of TEG over months of having not been able to coherently score a point with his political beliefs. You can rest assured the reason you haven't seen me bested is simple. I stay on ground upon which I can't lose. When something's wrong, it's wrong. I only have to fight that when someone can't admit it's wrong, which is why I never lose . TEG, however, is a winner in his own mind, and that's important for him. Self-esteem, even imagined as in this case, is important for our young friends.

[The Evil Genius]

Originally posted by Art

TEG,

You have three posts in this thread. Not one word in those three posts indicates you find anything at all disturbing with the actions by the Dems. You repeatedly devote much time to the ills of Gerrymandering, but you devote not a word to the actions by the Dems. I have no doubt you had a throwaway line in another thread about this that you didn't like it, but even in that, I'm willing to say you're disapproval wasn't unconditional. It was always conditioned that what the Republicans are doing is wrong, and you think MORE wrong because you devote more time to it.

So, please show the single line or quote in this thread that indicates you are against what the Dems are doing here. Perhaps I just missed it and I would apologize in that case. If, however, that doesn't exist, YOU will say, "Oops, good point Art." That's how it'll work.

And, for the record, my bullying here does work great, TEG, because it's been months since I've had to engage you and you're still fuming over how badly you were beaten. Clearly, the bullying does bring about just the type of response I'm angling for. It largely kept you quiet, and though you got angry at me, at least you weren't making such a regular fool of yourself, so, in the end, the method was effective .

Again Art, please remove your head from your nether regions, ok?

This is the 2nd post this week about this issue. Read the other one ok?

For your convenience, I will post what I said...from this thread...http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27208

I guess gerrymandering is ok - as long as the GOP does it.

The DEMS in the story are definitely in the wrong here...that goes without question.

But using the Rangers to round them up? Wow.

then I said this...in response to Kilmer's question regarding whether I read the post I copied and pasted.

Yes, and I purposely avoided your spin on this issue.

The real issue is, gerrymandering. Thats what the DEMS are complaining about. They obviously choose the wrong method to fight it - no doubt.

But you can't just ignore the trees and simply look at the forest can you?

In total, I think I posted 16 times in that thread - read them Art. I said what the DEMS were doing was wrong - I also pointed out they had a legitimate, in my eyes, gripe regarding gerrymandering.

Now tell me - what don't you understand about my position on this?

[The Evil Genius]

You repeatedly devote much time to the ills of Gerrymandering, but you devote not a word to the actions by the Dems. I have no doubt you had a throwaway line in another thread about this that you didn't like it, but even in that, I'm willing to say you're disapproval wasn't unconditional.

Besides what I wrote in the other thread, did you even read what i said in this VERY OWN thread...

The answers are easy - the GOP wants more representation, especially now that they are the controlling party. And no, depsite them saying that the new maps better serve the voting practices of the Texas people, if the DEMS would have gained more power (via the new GOP maps) - then the GOP would not have adopted this as a hot button issue. The DEMS would have - and it still would have been wrong.

So where's my apology tough guy?

[Art]

TEG,

I asked you to show me your thoughts in this thread that indicate you feel the Dems actions were wrong. I do see you had that here and I am sorry for having not fully appreciated the depth of your outrage. I was, perhaps, thrown by, "The real issue is" something other than what the real issue is. But, again, I did miss that nugget.

Your second post in reference to the Dems being wrong was about Gerrymandering, not the fleeing from the state, or that's how it appears to me. In any case, as I said, you still can't bring yourself to addressing the real issue here. The stopping of government by a group of children who've fled the state. It doesn't matter if you agree with the redistricting or not. It could be this issue or another. The issue here is a party has LEFT the political process in a fit of childish rage, and you can't get yourself worked up about it. You can about "gerrymandering" if that's what's happening. I find that to be a very difficult position for you to offer and find all that convincing.

[phishhead]

Here's an interesting article I found about the issue:

Published on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 by CommonDreams.org

Homeland Security Department Used to Track Texas Democrats

by Glenn W. Smith

Republicans in Washington and Austin, Texas apparently used a Homeland Security Department agency to track Texas Democratic legislators who left the state to block passage of a GOP-backed Congressional redistricting bill.

This is the same Homeland Security Department that is supposed to be making America safe from foreign terrorists. It's the agency we were told would never be used for domestic political purposes.

But today's edition of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram reports that the Air and Marine Interdiction and Coordination Center, in Riverside, California, became involved in the Republican search for 51 Democratic state representatives who went to Ardmore, Oklahoma to break a quorum of the House and block action on the redistricting bill.

Here's what the Star-Telegram reported: "The agency received a call to locate a specific Piper turboprop aircraft. It was determined that the plane belonged to former House Speaker Pete Laney." Laney is one of the Democrats who is fighting against the redistricting bill.

The newspaper said, "Laney's plane proved to be a key piece of information because, (Republican House Speaker) Craddick said, it's how he determined that the Democrats were in Ardmore. 'We called someone, and they said they were going to track it. I have no idea how they tracked it down,' Craddick said. 'That's how we found them.'"

The Interdiction and Coordination center "falls under the auspices of the Homeland Security Department," the Star-Telegram reported.

Republican Craddick, at the request of U.S. Rep. Tom DeLay, is pushing a redistricting plan that would eliminate five Democrats from the U.S. Congress. Currently, the Texas delegation contains 17 Democrats and 15 Republicans.

While saying they "called someone," Craddick denied making calls to any federal agency, but DeLay confirmed that Republicans sought the assistance of federal law enforcement.

The action by the House Democrats, dubbed the "Heroes of the House" and the "Killer D's" (a reference to a similar quorum-busting action by Texas Senate Democrats in the late 1970s), has gained national attention. Their action has also received a surprising amount of support from Texas newspapers, which have criticized the deeply partisan actions of Texas Republicans.

Republican leaders in Texas and Washington are furious. They have called the Democrats, holed up in a Holiday Inn in Ardmore, "cowards" and "terrorists."

State troopers have followed the Democrats wives, parents and children. Troopers even staked out a hospital where one lawmaker's premature twins are being cared for. Staffers have been harassed. All this has happened after the location of the Democrats was known.

Now, in a chilling revelation, we discover the Homeland Security Department was apparently used to try and track the Democrats' whereabouts.

It was no doubt a ham-fisted, incautious and bungled attempt (like the Watergate burglary) by Republicans to use all the law enforcement they could find to overcome the Democrats' temporary advantage.

But the use of the Homeland Security Department for partisan political purposes should alarm all Americans. It deserves a full, complete and independent investigation.

The warnings of civil libertarians appear to have been justified. Even if it turns out that some half-crazed Republican staffer or independent investigator called the Air and Marine Interdiction and Coordination Center, it raises disturbing questions about the operations of Homeland Security and the lengths Republicans will go enforce their will.

Americans deserve to know the details of this scandal. And they deserve to know them now.

[Burgold]

It certainly is a bizarre tactic. I mean how poison must the atmosphere have been that one side of the party figures a sick out is the only way to be heard? I think long term it will be damaging to these Texas democrats. I think short term it is damaging to them too. Whether they are in the right about gerrymandering or what they perceive as an illegal power plot by the Republicans becomes a secondary point. It's a bad precedent, the ultimate fillibuster, and how will they resolve this for the next few years? The GOP primary or most pressing issue shouldn't be redistricting... but, I don't know. This is a hard one to defend.

The article above this post, certainly makes the GOP look pretty bad too though. Ah, what can you expect from a state that hosts the Cowboys.

[Kilmer17]

Did that come from the Demsarealwaysright.com or TheGOPisevil.com?

[Burgold]

Wasn't TheGOPisevil.com just bought by Murdoch and now only features articles on home repair?

[The Evil Genius]

Originally posted by Burgold

Wasn't TheGOPisevil.com just bought by Murdoch and now only features articles on home repair?

:laugh:

Sadly, I couldn't find a site called TheGOPisevil.com.

Conversely, I couldnt find this either

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=TheGOPisgood.com&ei=UTF-8&vm=p&n=20&fl=0&x=wrt

[gbear]

Art, you keep coming back to the Dems not voting to confirm for the year they had control. I keep pointing out that it takes longer than 6 months under any circumstance (something you ignore). Not one of Clinton nominations made it through in less than that and many took years! When did Bush nominate his people, day1? BS.

That 22 number you keep quoting is BS. They've prevented 2. That's a far better record than the R during Clinton where nominations routinely took years to get a vote. In fact some never got a vote including the one guy who had to be nominated 2X over 6 years. Get down off the high horse on that one.

Back to the subject at hand: Gerymandering. It has always sucked. One thing I find interesting is that the Republicans went to court to get a fair shake on the districting. Cool, I'm down with that. As I said earlier, the Dems did some extremely shady drawing. Now 8 years before the court reached decision needs to be redone, the R have decided the court wasn't "fair." As a result it needs to be redone.

NOw the example used on NPR was a 2block by 8 mile district. To me that's a blatant attempt to gerrymander if it's true. It was said by a politician not the media, so I have no idea. I'll wait to see the maps. What I do find funny is that when out of power, the R went to court to get a "fair" shake and justifyably won. Now it's not "fair enough." What has changed? Not the census count the districts are supposed to be based on. Only what they feel they can get away with has changed.

What we need is districting that reflects polulation. The census puts out geographic areas based on population density. An area can change from a place to a city to metropolitan statistical area depending on the population density. What I have never understood is why districts aren't constructed to split as few census geographic areas as possible. As a tie breaker, between two or more possibilities, use the plan that splits the counties least. At that point, it's a math problem not a political issue.

[Kilmer17]

lol.

Kind of like BrightHouse not showing anti-Bush ads. Which I think is a pretty scary precedent to set.

[Kilmer17]

Only 2 g?

Estrada, Pickering, Owens. There's three off the top of my head.

[gbear]

denied votes Kilmer, not voted down. That's the difference. The dems can only filabuster. anyone else denied a vote at this point is denied by a comitte controled by the R. The D have filabustered 2.

As I said before, the R denied votes to an average of more than 3 per year for Clinton. Talk to me when the D hit 4.