Report: CC Sabathia to sign with Yankees

[Die Hard]

I would argue that Jeter, Williams, Posada, Riveria and the like were the key guys and what the yankees did was add solid players and not every all-star they could.

Uh, those guys weren't "solid" players.... they were the premiere players at their positions at the time the Yankees acquired them. They were producing at all-star levels. Clemens was coming off a Cy Young with the Jays. Tino Martinez was one of the best offensive bats in the game at first base. Dave Cone was always a 20-win guy.... and Wells was always a 15-win pitcher.

Those young guys were developing..... and contributing.... but they weren't the nucleus until AFTER those veteran players left.... and the Yanks haven't won since their "farm" guys were the main core.

[Die Hard]

Earth to poster: you said in your own post the reason no salary cap is totally unfair. Let's take the Ray's. If they don't draft well, they will never win. So they have one way of fielding a winner.(I'm not talking just world series, but having a chance every year to make the playoffs. The Yankees and Red Sox have two ways to win. They can draft well, but they can also afford to pay for the best talent every year and as you said, "they can **** up & not have it ruin their whole season." So the rich teams have 2 ways to win and the poor teams have 1 way to win. Is that really fair? In the NFL, every team has the draft and the same amount of money. That gives every team a chance every year.

No, teams like the Yanks and Bosox do NOT have 2 ways to win. They can't draft well.... because the blue-chip talent (hitters and pitchers) are scooped up every year by the crappy teams.

So they are left with a few prospects... and maybe 1-2 pans out over the years. But you're not talking about dominant players.... just good contributors.

But when you draft at the top.... especially over a cycle of years... you are giving your franchise a HUGE influx of blue-chip talent. And when they finally develop... which in baseball can take a few years.... you've got a great organization. Like the Rays.... and Phillies.... and Marlins (before they shed the contracts).

[Hersh]

Uh, those guys weren't "solid" players.... they were the premiere players at their positions at the time the Yankees acquired them. They were producing at all-star levels. Clemens was coming off a Cy Young with the Jays. Tino Martinez was one of the best offensive bats in the game at first base. Dave Cone was always a 20-win guy.... and Wells was always a 15-win pitcher.

Those young guys were developing..... and contributing.... but they weren't the nucleus until AFTER those veteran players left.... and the Yanks haven't won since their "farm" guys were the main core.

Go back and look at the world series stats from 1996. Jeter, Williams and Pettite were absolutely HUGE back then. Pettite was the game 1 starter. Though he got rocked, his second start was a shutout.

Also Cone, while a very good pitcher, one more then 15 games twice before signing with the yanks.

Tino never hit .300 in his career and had one good year before signing with the yanks.

Boggs was great but it was his 4th year.

Fielder and Strawberry were washed up.

Wetteland was great

Kenny Rogers was average at best

[Hersh]

No, teams like the Yanks and Bosox do NOT have 2 ways to win. They can't draft well.... because the blue-chip talent (hitters and pitchers) are scooped up every year by the crappy teams.

So they are left with a few prospects... and maybe 1-2 pans out over the years. But you're not talking about dominant players.... just good contributors.

But when you draft at the top.... especially over a cycle of years... you are giving your franchise a HUGE influx of blue-chip talent. And when they finally develop... which in baseball can take a few years.... you've got a great organization. Like the Rays.... and Phillies.... and Marlins (before they shed the contracts).

[The Evil Genius]

Actually, with the large amount of MLB talent now coming from overseas (including Latin America), the baseball draft isn't as important as you think.

Teams like the Yankees can spend (if they choose to) millions of dollars signing Latin America kids without ever being on the same level playing field as the Devil Rays of the world, since none of that talent goes in the draft.

[Hersh]

No, teams like the Yanks and Bosox do NOT have 2 ways to win. They can't draft well.... because the blue-chip talent (hitters and pitchers) are scooped up every year by the crappy teams.

So they are left with a few prospects... and maybe 1-2 pans out over the years. But you're not talking about dominant players.... just good contributors.

But when you draft at the top.... especially over a cycle of years... you are giving your franchise a HUGE influx of blue-chip talent. And when they finally develop... which in baseball can take a few years.... you've got a great organization. Like the Rays.... and Phillies.... and Marlins (before they shed the contracts).

This is a joke. Pettite and Riveria and Bernie Williams were undrafted.

Key and Cone from the 96 team were 3rd round picks. Giradi was a 7th round pick.

Scott Brosius, the 98 world series mvp was a 20th round pick. Even Joba Chamberlain wasnt drafted in the 1st round.

[Hersh]

My favorite player Eddie Murray was a 3rd round pick. Mike Piazza was pretty good for being drafted after 50+ rounds. Some Cal Ripken guy was a 2nd round pick. Should I continue???

[Die Hard]

This is a joke. Pettite and Riveria and Bernie Williams were undrafted.

Key and Cone from the 96 team were 3rd round picks. Giradi was a 7th round pick.

Scott Brosius, the 98 world series mvp was a 20th round pick. Even Joba Chamberlain wasnt drafted in the 1st round.

Thanks for proving my point.

[Die Hard]

Actually, with the large amount of MLB talent now coming from overseas (including Latin America), the baseball draft isn't as important as you think.

Agreed. Except this wasn't the same set of circumstances when the Yankees were winning championships.

[Die Hard]

2000 World Series champions:

Clay Bellinger

Scott Brosius

Jose Canseco

Roger Clemens

*David Cone

Orlando Hernandez

Glenallen Hill

Derek Jeter

*David Justice

Chuck Knoblauch

*Tino Martinez

*Denny Neagle

Jeff Nelson

*Paul O'Neill

*Andy Pettitte

*Luis Polonia

#Jorge Posada

Mariano Rivera

Luis Sojo

*Mike Stanton

#Jose Vizcaino

#Bernie Williams

That's a "home grown" talent roster for you huh?

[Hersh]

Thanks for proving my point.

Is that what someone says when they have no comeback in an argument? I pointed out some of the Yankees that you claimed were the main reason they won the World Series were not first round picks to destroy your lame argument that rich teams can't win with the draft.

[REDSKINZ-RIDEORDIE]

Baseball will never be as good as the NFL until they get a hard salary cap. Just ridiculous.

Amen.....

[Hersh]

2000 World Series champions:

Clay Bellinger

Scott Brosius

Jose Canseco

Roger Clemens

*David Cone

Orlando Hernandez

Glenallen Hill

Derek Jeter

*David Justice

Chuck Knoblauch

*Tino Martinez

*Denny Neagle

Jeff Nelson

*Paul O'Neill

*Andy Pettitte

*Luis Polonia

#Jorge Posada

Mariano Rivera

Luis Sojo

*Mike Stanton

#Jose Vizcaino

#Bernie Williams

That's a "home grown" talent roster for you huh?

How many of those guys were 1st round picks and it you don't think Pettite, Rivera, Jeter, Williams were the main guys then you are crazy. Yes, they picked up some other great players, but Paul O'Neil is not mistaken as a great player like Jeter or A-Rod or Sabathia. He was a great fit cause of his character. Same goes for Brosius.

I'm not claiming that free agents didn't help them win the world series back then, but if you look at the caliber of free agents they chase now, it's totally different. They try to get an all-star at every position and that wasn't how they operated back then.

[Die Hard]

I pointed out some of the Yankees that you claimed were the main reason they won the World Series were not first round picks to destroy your lame argument that rich teams can't win with the draft.

Again, thanks for proving my point.

As I've said, the Yankees weren't winning championship because they drafted well... or had high draft picks. They won because of free agency and trades.

And you're further proving my point.... because the free agent signings.... were good ball players that weren't drafted high.

When you have a pool of XXX amount of good ball players available (trade bait or free agency).... out of thousands more (regardless of where they are drafted).... and you pick the best (ie. most productive) of the those available.... chances are pretty good you're going to field a good ball team.

The best teams aren't filled with all high round picks. And not all high round picks turn out to be as good as advertised.

But if you don't draft.... and leave nothing to chance.... and you build you're roster from the best available (ie. productive) players -- regardless of where they were drafted -- you're going to have a good ball team.

The Yankees weren't just signing any old 3rd and 20th round picks. They were signing very good established veterans.

[royallypwned]

I love having a team that won a championship. It feels fantastic.

:rotflmao:

[Die Hard]

How many of those guys were 1st round picks and it you don't think Pettite, Rivera, Jeter, Williams were the main guys then you are crazy. Yes, they picked up some other great players, but Paul O'Neil is not mistaken as a great player like Jeter or A-Rod or Sabathia. He was a great fit cause of his character. Same goes for Brosius.

I'm not claiming that free agents didn't help them win the world series back then, but if you look at the caliber of free agents they chase now, it's totally different. They try to get an all-star at every position and that wasn't how they operated back then.

Then you simply don't remember the quality of the players back in the day. Those guys WERE ALL all-stars back in the day.

What the hell are you smoking?

[pjfootballer]

Actually, with the large amount of MLB talent now coming from overseas (including Latin America), the baseball draft isn't as important as you think.

Teams like the Yankees can spend (if they choose to) millions of dollars signing Latin America kids without ever being on the same level playing field as the Devil Rays of the world, since none of that talent goes in the draft.

Which makes a 3rd avenue to build a team. The teams with money are outbidding the teams without for talent in the Carribean and Japan. Didn't the Red Sox recently sign 3 players from Japan?

[Hersh]

Again, thanks for proving my point.

As I've said, the Yankees weren't winning championship because they drafted well... or had high draft picks. They won because of free agency and trades.

And you're further proving my point.... because the free agent signings.... were good ball players that weren't drafted high.

When you have a pool of XXX amount of good ball players available (trade bait or free agency).... out of thousands more (regardless of where they are drafted).... and you pick the best (ie. most productive) of the those available.... chances are pretty good you're going to field a good ball team.

The best teams aren't filled with all high round picks. And not all high round picks turn out to be as good as advertised.

But if you don't draft.... and leave nothing to chance.... and you build you're roster from the best available (ie. productive) players -- regardless of where they were drafted -- you're going to have a good ball team.

The Yankees were just signed any old 3rd and 20th round picks. They were signing established veterans.

SERIOUSLY???? I will say it again. JETER, WILLIAMS, RIVERIA, PETTITE...they didn't accidently become yankees. That was the result of good drafting and scouting. IF they Yankees don't draft Jeter or sign as undrafted players, the other three, they don't win a world series. So you can win without HIGH draftpicks.

You said the Yanks couldn't win thru the draft cause they didn't have high first round picks and that's simply not true. Look at all the great players that have not been drafted in the 1st round.

To conclude: the Yankees can win with players drafted as it turns out that there are many good and great players drafted after round 1. The yankees can also win by spending a lot on players. This is something poor teams can't do. So the Yankees (and others) have 2 ways to win, while poor teams must always draft well. DO YOU UNDERSTAND???

[Hersh]

Which makes a 3rd avenue to build a team. The teams with money are outbidding the teams without for talent in the Carribean and Japan. Didn't the Red Sox recently sign 3 players from Japan?

I agree 100%. The Sox spent $50 million just to negotiate with Dice K and then gave him a 4 year $50 million deal. Only a hand full of teams could do that.

[Die Hard]

SERIOUSLY???? I will say it again. JETER, WILLIAMS, RIVERIA, PETTITE...they didn't accidently become yankees. That was the result of good drafting and scouting. IF they Yankees don't draft Jeter or sign as undrafted players, the other three, they don't win a world series. So you can win without HIGH draft picks.

Well there you have it everyone... there IS parity in MLB.

So quit you're whining... the Yankees DID win their championship based on 4 players that were undrafted. And if they can do it.... any team can do it.

So quit you're whining about the Yankees outspending everyone. And you don't need blue-chip prospects either.

Thanks Hersh. Lovely playing this game with you.

[Die Hard]

I agree 100%. The Sox spent $50 million just to negotiate with Dice K and then gave him a 4 year $50 million deal. Only a hand full of teams could do that.

Wait, I thought winning teams are only built through late round draft picks.

It's not supposed to matter how much money you spend on free agents.... remember?

[Hersh]

Then you simply don't remember the quality of the players back in the day. Those guys WERE ALL all-stars back in the day.

What the hell are you smoking?

I'll give you Paul O'Neil cause he was really good. Let's remember though that all-star balloting is done by fans. These guys were great for the yankees, but not great players. Just to name a few.

Tino Martinez

Batting average .271

Home runs 339

Runs batted in 1,271

Scott Brosuis

Batting average .257

Home runs 141

Runs batted in 531

Joe Giradi

Batting average .267

Hits 1,100

Run batted in 422

[Hersh]

Wait, I thought winning teams are only built through late round draft picks.

It's not supposed to matter how much money you spend on free agents.... remember?

I never said that. In fact, I have said there are multiple ways to build a winner. Thru the draft (whether or not you have a top 10 pick every year), thru FA and thru the way the Sox got Dice-K. Only wealthy teams can afford to do the latter 2. Especially since they can cover up mistakes by spending more money. Less Wealthy teams have to rely primarily on the draft because they can't afford the A-rods or Dice-Ks. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING????

[Die Hard]

Earth to poster: you said in your own post the reason no salary cap is totally unfair. Let's take the Ray's. If they don't draft well, they will never win. So they have one way of fielding a winner.(I'm not talking just world series, but having a chance every year to make the playoffs. The Yankees and Red Sox have two ways to win. They can draft well, but they can also afford to pay for the best talent every year and as you said, "they can **** up & not have it ruin their whole season." So the rich teams have 2 ways to win and the poor teams have 1 way to win. Is that really fair?

Do you see what a hypocrite you are?

In one breath.... you're saying that the Yankees won World Series based on undrafted and late round picks.... not because of free agents. While acknowledging that every team.... has the opportunity to draft.... particularly late round picks.

In the next breath, you're saying the it's unfair that the Yankees can sign free agents to win. And yet, don't give the Yankees free agents any credit when they led to them to their WS rings.

You see how funny you look?

[Die Hard]

Especially since they can cover up mistakes by spending more money. Less Wealthy teams have to rely primarily on the draft because they can't afford the A-rods or Dice-Ks. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING????

So the Yankees had to rely on free agency to cover up for their draft mistakes..... like Pettite, Riviera, Williams, Posada, etc. Got it.